AudioNervosa

Self Medicating => General DIY => Topic started by: shadowlight on August 12, 2016, 04:41:59 PM

Title: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: shadowlight on August 12, 2016, 04:41:59 PM
I am currently using same set of speakers for dual duty in the basement and want to use two different set of amps/preamp for 2 channel v/s HT.  Is it better to get longer speaker cables or IC?  The 2-channel equipment will be closer to sitting position, while the ht stuff will be right in the middle low to the ground.
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: richidoo on August 13, 2016, 10:19:01 AM
Short SC and long ICs is much better than the opposite! And cheaper too. ;)

Because.... you want to minimize the resistance between the amp and speakers to get best electrical damping (detail) and resistance increases with cable length. Speaker impedance is necessarily very low (2-8ohms,) so keeping the impedance ratio to the amplifier good enough to maintain control of the speaker is always a challenge for the amp to stay lower impedance than the speaker. Adding longer speaker cables can add another ohm of resistance to the amp's source impedance, that's enough to wreck your electrical damping. It's like switching from steel control rod to a rubber band to control the speaker. 

But an amplifier has a very steady and very high input impedance of >10kOhm, so almost any line level source (usually <500 ohms) can easily maintain a good impedance ratio even if the source impedance increases by a couple ohms with longer cables. That small increase is much more critical when driving low impedance speakers than when driving a high impedance amp.

As long as your line-level driver of the distant amplifier has source:load impedance ratio of 1:>10 you should be fine with long ICs. It's all about the impedance ratios.

What preamp and what amp are you using for the 2 ch system?
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: shadowlight on August 15, 2016, 11:36:04 AM
Thx Rich.  I will be using a 41PL (https://simplepleasuretubeamps.wordpress.com/2015/01/05/radus-implementation-of-the-siberian-4p1l-gen3-designed-by-ale-moglia/) based preamp with 2a3 (http://www.triodelab.com/2a3-set/) tube amp.  I might replace the 2a3 amp with a Response Audio modified Jolida 3502 (el34/kt77/kt88/6550) based integrated which can be converted to a power amp with a switch.
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: richidoo on August 15, 2016, 12:17:16 PM
That preamp's source impedance is 165Ohms, that is very strong for a tube pre. You'll have no problem driving any amp. 
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: BobM on August 21, 2016, 08:10:52 AM
I know most people will say long IC's and short speaker cables, but I read an article by an engineer who proved the opposite is true. Here's a synopsis of his reasoning.

Interconnects carry lower signal strength, and unless shielded, can be more prone to RFI and EMI and other signal corruption than a speaker cable.

Speaker cables don't show any sign of signal degradation until they approach 25' in length. At that point you may begin to hear top end losses.

Long speaker cables are cheaper than long IC's (unless you DIY).

Now personally, I'm not proposing one over the other. I'm just pointing out there is another side to the argument. As usual in audio, as soon as you think you have an answer someone will reason the other way. The bottom line is to try it for yourself and see what is best, but that can be an expensive experiment unless you are borrowing equipment from others.

Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: richidoo on August 21, 2016, 09:02:19 AM
Good points Bob   :thumb:
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: Triode Pete on August 21, 2016, 01:01:52 PM
I know most people will say long IC's and short speaker cables, but I read an article by an engineer who proved the opposite is true. Here's a synopsis of his reasoning.

Interconnects carry lower signal strength, and unless shielded, can be more prone to RFI and EMI and other signal corruption than a speaker cable.

Speaker cables don't show any sign of signal degradation until they approach 25' in length. At that point you may begin to hear top end losses.

Long speaker cables are cheaper than long IC's (unless you DIY).

Now personally, I'm not proposing one over the other. I'm just pointing out there is another side to the argument. As usual in audio, as soon as you think you have an answer someone will reason the other way. The bottom line is to try it for yourself and see what is best, but that can be an expensive experiment unless you are borrowing equipment from others.



Bob,
I'm in complete agreement with you... After many listening tests comparing the two, longer speaker cables & shorter IC's ALWAYS sounds better... Keep the IC's as short as possible...

My $0.02,
Pete

PS - If you want to start another debate, how about single-ended RCA's versus balanced XLR's??? There's a caveat there, too!
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: jessearias on August 22, 2016, 08:45:09 AM
From Pete: "PS - If you want to start another debate, how about single-ended RCA's versus balanced XLR's??? There's a caveat there, too!"

Would it be a correct guess to say that you can go longer with XLR cables than RCA's?  :?
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: tmazz on August 22, 2016, 11:50:32 AM
I would think that the caveat would be that there will only be a difference if the components you are connecting are true balance differential circuits and not just single ended circuits with an XLR connector  for convenience sake....... unless Pete had another one in mind.
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: Scottdazzle on August 22, 2016, 12:59:37 PM
I know most people will say long IC's and short speaker cables, but I read an article by an engineer who proved the opposite is true. Here's a synopsis of his reasoning.

Interconnects carry lower signal strength, and unless shielded, can be more prone to RFI and EMI and other signal corruption than a speaker cable.

Speaker cables don't show any sign of signal degradation until they approach 25' in length. At that point you may begin to hear top end losses.

Long speaker cables are cheaper than long IC's (unless you DIY).

Now personally, I'm not proposing one over the other. I'm just pointing out there is another side to the argument. As usual in audio, as soon as you think you have an answer someone will reason the other way. The bottom line is to try it for yourself and see what is best, but that can be an expensive experiment unless you are borrowing equipment from others.



Bob,
I'm in complete agreement with you... After many listening tests comparing the two, longer speaker cables & shorter IC's ALWAYS sounds better... Keep the IC's as short as possible...

My $0.02,
Pete

PS - If you want to start another debate, how about single-ended RCA's versus balanced XLR's??? There's a caveat there, too!


+1 to what Pete said. Always keep ic's as short as possible.
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: shadowlight on August 22, 2016, 01:03:59 PM
PS - If you want to start another debate, how about single-ended RCA's versus balanced XLR's??? There's a caveat there, too!

Let's leave the back and forth for other forums  :thumb:.

I guess I will try both and see which one works better.
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: rollo on November 14, 2016, 12:45:20 PM
From Pete: "PS - If you want to start another debate, how about single-ended RCA's versus balanced XLR's??? There's a caveat there, too!"

Would it be a correct guess to say that you can go longer with XLR cables than RCA's?  :?


   YES

charles
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: steve on June 01, 2017, 09:43:29 PM
I agree with Rich, shorter SC and longer ICs. Let's check out some data.

Imo, less than 25 foot cables, the EE who stated no sonic up to 25 feet is way off, as the data below clearly demonstrates.

I am currently using (10) 18 gauge wires in parallel, which are
only 6 foot lengths, and the perception is clearly realized in my years of testing.

Whereas DC wire resistance is not frequency dependent, wire inductance is. For comparison, the dc resistance, inductance, and impedance of various wire sizes and combo are listed below. These calculations are based on only 5 foot lengths, and at 20khz. We will interpolate to lower frequencies later. (nh is nano henries.)
 
     Single                Single          Single         5 parallel

18 gauge wire        13 ga.         11 ga.            18 ga.

2410 nh               2232 nh        2162 nh         482 nh

DC resistance
.0325                    .0104           .0066            .0065              

Inductive reactance
.30 ohms              .28 ohms     .27 ohms        .06 ohms  

For simplicity, a single 11 gauge wire, 0,27 ohms reactance is approximately 1/7 the impedance (Z) of a 4 ohm speaker Z. The response is Down somewher, guessing around .75db at 20khz.        
At 10khz, the Z is still 0,135 ohms. At only 5khz, 0,0675 ohms. Remember, this is for only a 5 foot length speaker wire.

A 25 foot length of single 11 gauge solid wire, at 20khz; we are talking 1.35 ohms reactance. At 10khz 0,675 ohms, at 5khz 0,34 ohms, and at just 2.5khz, still 0,17 ohms reactance.

Also note that while the 5 parallel 18 gauge wires equate to an 11 gauge wire in terms of DC resistance, the inductive reactance is nearly 1/5th that of the 11 gauge wire at 20khz.

Olsen's work demonstrated that harmonics are weighted. Thus the ear is extremely sensitive to harmonics being altered. (We are not discussing SPL changes across the entire audio band.) As the harmonic number rises, it takes less change to be perceived. The 3th harmonic is more sensitive than 2th harmonic, the 5th more than the 4th harmonic, the 9th harmonic than 8th harmonic etc.
 
The inductive reactance of the speaker wire will alter both the phase and the amplitude of the harmonics. Thus minimum Z is advantageous.

I live within 7 miles of megawatt TV stations, and no problem with interference entering via interconnects. Those ICs are not shielded. And any small 60hz hum, I simply dial out.

As I mentioned earlier, I agree with Rich, but I suppose there are some circumstances where the opposite could be advantageous.

I hope this helps one to more fully understand what is occurring in their own system.

All the best.
Steve

Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: tmazz on June 02, 2017, 06:12:46 AM
Of course one thing that has not been addressed here is the WAF.

Before we moved and I had a dedicated audio room in the basement I could do whatever I wanted. But now that my stereo is set up in the living room , which is the first thing anyone sees when they walk into the house, there is no way I could get away with taking the amps out of the rack and onto the floor by the speakers.  :roll:

While most of us think that big boxes of glowing tubes spread all over the room looks great, there are not to many women that would consider making their living room look like a display and an audio show to be acceptable interior decorating.  :lol:

And all kidding aside, my wife has been pretty good about letting me place my equipment where the stereo will work the best and then doing all her decorating from that point so I think the least I can do is to keep the gear all tucked into the rack and make it as unobtrusive as I can.
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: jimbones on June 02, 2017, 07:16:24 AM
You can look at the numbers and theory all you want but in the end you just have to try it and see what works best or as Tom says, you may have other constraints that drive your decision. I used to stress the small stuff, now I am in enjoyment mode. Hey, if it doesn't work one way, just change it.
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: rollo on June 02, 2017, 11:42:57 AM
  How about we keep this short. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


charles
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: steve on June 02, 2017, 01:53:33 PM
You can look at the numbers and theory all you want but in the end you just have to try it and see what works best or as Tom says, you may have other constraints that drive your decision. I used to stress the small stuff, now I am in enjoyment mode. Hey, if it doesn't work one way, just change it.

I stated that in my last post, and agree. I can understand your position Jim, since real science has been manipulated and deceptively used for so long by marketers/shills. Frankly I am frustrated, probably even more than you.

But this is not just theory, but factual frequency sensitive losses that occur in speaker wire. And it is not minor in nature. What would one think if their amplifier was down -1db or more at 20khz? That is several tenths of a db at just 5khz. What a piece of junk, right.

I just want the public to understand so they can consider their options. Just in this string we read about some EE who claims he has  "proof" recommending short ICs and long speaker wires is best, and that up to 25 foot lengths mean nothing. Sounds to me that the EE means all situations.

What a joke. One is losing around 1/3rd of the musical signal at 20khz, 1/6th at 10khz etc. depending upon the speaker impedance at those frequencies. Multiple wires in parallel cut that loss way way down.

I forgot about WAF, very important.

Cheers and no harm meant Jim.
Steve
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: rollo on June 03, 2017, 07:08:46 AM
Steve I must say very interesting facts. The question is can we actually hear those losses.
   In real life say I have 3ft. ICs and 8ft speaker cables how would I calculate any losses compared to the opposite lengths [ 8ft IC, 3FT IC]. Speaker impedance is [8] Ohms.
   Could this finding contribute to the "synergy" we perceive with different cables and lengths of such.


charles
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: steve on June 03, 2017, 11:20:29 PM
Quote from: rollo link=topic=6094.msg79924#msg79924
Steve I must say very interesting facts. The question is can we actually hear those losses.

Maybe with a bright top end you can somewhat sneak around it. Or if the venue is poor acoustically, the sound is not going to be that good anyway, so it is less critical. But in a descent room, one is just kidding himself if one thinks he can obtain the best synergy from using components with such poor specs. Just does not work that way. (We do only what we can with our limited budget though.)

Quote
In real life say I have 3ft. ICs and 8ft speaker cables how would I calculate any losses compared to the opposite lengths [ 8ft IC, 3FT IC]. Speaker impedance is [8] Ohms.
  

I have been working with 10 strands of 18 gauge vs 8 strands of 18 gauge wire, 6 feet long. Pretty critical.

The ICs aren't going to make any difference, except the rare occasion that some sort of rfi or poorly designed component etc. It is the speaker wire that is going to make the most difference. 8 ohms does make things just a little bit better, but still.

To calculate, just take my previous example and substitute the lengths you posted, and vs 8 ohms. (5 ohms is the reference used in my last post, so we shall use that figure as a reference.)

For a single 11 gauge wire, 8' / 5' = 1.6. So 1.6 times .27 ohms  = .432 ohms reactance at 20khz.

For a single 11 gauge wire, 3' / 5' = 0.6. So 0.6 times .27 ohms
= .16 ohms reactance at 20khz. The difference between the two is 0.27 ohms reactance. Remember, that is for just one length of speaker wire. We have two wires per speaker, so the difference is twice, or .54 ohms reactance.

You can do the math for different gauges.

On an excellent system, that is easily perceived. For instance, in my system, I am adjusting a resistor across my full range driver by easily less than 1 part in 180,000. That is, I am adjusting a 9,000 ohm resistor by easily less than .1 of an ohm. But then I am in the zone of extreme openness, and lack of masking, especially in the upper bass/lower midrange or so region.

SS amps, with their high damping factor, and maybe more importantly using huge filter caps often mask information in the upper bass/lower midrange or so region. That portion of the frequency spectrum is extremely critical when it comes to masking low level musical information. We want maximum openness.  

Cheers
Steve

ps. I will be gone for 1 1/2 weeks.
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: Scottdazzle on June 04, 2017, 12:59:35 PM
You can look at the numbers and theory all you want but in the end you just have to try it and see what works best or as Tom says, you may have other constraints that drive your decision. I used to stress the small stuff, now I am in enjoyment mode. Hey, if it doesn't work one way, just change it.


+1 Jimbones. Following the death of my son, I'm refocusing my life on what's really important. Most of this audio nervosa is a complete waste of precious time.
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: richidoo on June 04, 2017, 01:18:45 PM
+1 Jimbones. Following the death of my son, I'm refocusing my life on what's really important. Most of this audio nervosa is a complete waste of precious time.

+1 Scott.
Sorry to hear about your son.
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: steve on June 05, 2017, 06:41:18 AM
You can look at the numbers and theory all you want but in the end you just have to try it and see what works best or as Tom says, you may have other constraints that drive your decision. I used to stress the small stuff, now I am in enjoyment mode. Hey, if it doesn't work one way, just change it.


+1 Jimbones. Following the death of my son, I'm refocusing my life on what's really important. Most of this audio nervosa is a complete waste of precious time.

Thanks guys,

I have a few minutes before I leave and saw the quoted post/comment.

Thanks for the lecture. First, you have no idea of my life, and the fact I know what is really important in life.

I could not help but notice that you are a dealer who possesses and sells expensive components (one of those brands had at least one reviewer shilling against me on AC forums. You can ask Martin DeWulf, criminal defense attorney and editor of Bound for Sound, and Barry Thomas, retired Federal Investigator.)

Yet you lecture me for helping others by providing clearly obvious information that can help their systems.

Thanks for, in effect, ordering us not to improve our systems because you do not like it. And why are you not selling less expensive components with poorer specs? If does not make any difference?

Frankly, you are the last one I would ask for advice.

Steve Sammet
SAS Audio Labs (retired)
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: Nick B on June 05, 2017, 08:14:55 AM
I'm sorry to hear of the death of a family member, especially here with the AN family. I can only imagine the heartache involved. Some of us like Charles (and me) are dealing with spouses who are ill.
Like any other hobby, audio can help to ease that burden during times of trauma or stress or become unimportant.
 I don't know the history between members..and companies.... here and I'm not going to go there.
So let us keep this on topic please.
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: Triode Pete on June 05, 2017, 09:20:23 AM
You can look at the numbers and theory all you want but in the end you just have to try it and see what works best or as Tom says, you may have other constraints that drive your decision. I used to stress the small stuff, now I am in enjoyment mode. Hey, if it doesn't work one way, just change it.




+1 Jimbones. Following the death of my son, I'm refocusing my life on what's really important. Most of this audio nervosa is a complete waste of precious time.

I'm so very sorry, Scott... I was not aware of your loss and I cannot comprehend feeling that loss being a parent.

Sincerest condolences & prayers to you & your family...

Pete
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: Scottdazzle on June 05, 2017, 01:07:50 PM
Steve,

I can't tell if your comment was aimed at me. My comment was not aimed at you. I wasn't lecturing anybody - I don't do that. I was merely making the point that what I think is important has changed dramatically since Marc died. Also, I gave up the business and retired on 12/31/2016.

Scott
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: Scottdazzle on June 05, 2017, 01:10:07 PM
Thank you all for the condolences. This has been the worst experience of our (my wife and mine) lives.
Title: Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
Post by: steve on June 15, 2017, 04:48:12 PM
Steve,

I can't tell if your comment was aimed at me. My comment was not aimed at you. I wasn't lecturing anybody - I don't do that. I was merely making the point that what I think is important has changed dramatically since Marc died. Also, I gave up the business and retired on 12/31/2016.

Scott

I finally returned home and got the computer repaired. Thanks for changing your signature, while I was out of town, to include "retired" and delete manufacturers. Thanks for clearing things a little.

However, I do not understand how your, and even Jim's comment offers an answer to the OP's question. Both posts could easily be interpreted such as to undermine real science, and is more than minor.

And the more one understands real science, the more knowledgeable one is to make decisions. I think there is a continual problem with the public understanding the difference between real science, and those who use "their so called science" for marketing purposes. (And costs for both tests, as Jim mentions, may be more than one things.)

And will some be nervous to post? Just some concerns on how others might take it.  :)

I think we need this forum to grow, and post as much as possible.

Cheers
Steve