Embarking on a Semi-DIY New Speaker Project

[mresseguie]

Perhaps they were gold plated...

I hope to have an update on my quest in a couple days after I have visited the Parts Express-like store in Taipei.

[mresseguie]

Update:

I just left the P.E./Madisound-like shop. I babbled on for two hours. I had a lot of fun. Audiophoolery has many specialized words and expressions, so im still learning their Mandarin translations.

The owner will meet with a distribution rep from SB Acoustics to discuss his being the sole authorized importer of SBA drivers to Taiwan on the 29th, so i must wait a couple weeks after that before anyone knows pricing. Drivers wouldnt arrive until mid-December. It's wild to think my asking for a set of Satori drivers resulted in this. I dont suppose I will get a special discount for my initiative.

This shop does all the things a DIY shop might be expexted to do. They assemble nice speakers for discerning audiophiles who refuse to buy in brick & mortar shops. I already know their speakers will be more expensive than doing it myself, but i lack all tools. It might even be cheaper to commission someone like Rick Craig or Jeff Bagby to build them for me. TO BE DETERMINED

More later...

[Triode Pete]

Update:

I just left the P.E./Madisound-like shop. I babbled on for two hours. I had a lot of fun. Audiophoolery has many specialized words and expressions, so im still learning their Mandarin translations.

The owner will meet with a distribution rep from SB Acoustics to discuss his being the sole authorized importer of SBA drivers to Taiwan on the 29th, so i must wait a couple weeks after that before anyone knows pricing. Drivers wouldnt arrive until mid-December. It's wild to think my asking for a set of Satori drivers resulted in this. I dont suppose I will get a special discount for my initiative.

This shop does all the things a DIY shop might be expexted to do. They assemble nice speakers for discerning audiophiles who refuse to buy in brick & mortar shops. I already know their speakers will be more expensive than doing it myself, but i lack all tools. It might even be cheaper to commission someone like Rick Craig or Jeff Bagby to build them for me. TO BE DETERMINED

More later...

Good luck, Michael!

If not DIY, I would strongly recommend Danny Richie... he really knows what he's doing when it comes to loudspeakers... 

My $0.02,
Pete

[jimbones]

My advice, don't buy mainstream ready made speakers. You are doing the right thing. You will end up with a better product. Even contracting someone to build them you are better off. I was able to build a very nice set of speakers for less than I spent on my TT!

[rollo]

  How about getting the DIY shop to make the enclosures and crossover and you just screw it all together. Saving money on labor may help.
   


charles

[mresseguie]

This shop has been in business for approximately 40 years. Most of their business is from word of mouth referrals (sound familiar?).

I listened to 2 pairs of speakers there today - both were 2-way designs. The 1st was Accuton mid (6"?) with Accuton tweeter. The 2nd was 7" Illuminator with either Illuminator or Revelator tweeter. They were powered by an 8w/ch vacuum tube amp (from a kit). Light on the bass, but nice sounding.

The Illuminator speakers sell for approximately $90,000 NTD (a little under $2800 USD), but you can use cheaper components in the crossover and save $15k NTD ($450), but they won't sound the same.

Based on the Illuminator speakers, I'd guess a Satori 2-way might cost me $80,000 ($2500) with higher quality crossover parts. That's definitely more than it would cost for Rick, Danny, or another to set me up with cabinets and crossovers.

Almost forgot to mention, the above cabinets (and nearly all of the other cabinets) are made from Baltic Birch plywood with plenty of bracing. The speakers are heavy and solid. The price includes a wide choice of veneers.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pete,

I had guessed that Danny is pretty busy, so I never thought to ask him. Hmm....I'll ask.

I'm hoping to avoid shipping drivers, empty cabinets, or even completed speakers from the States to Taiwan. Shipping will run $300+. I found out today that it won't matter if I get the drivers from the States or from this outfit. Import duty WILL be charged regardless.

Charles,

This is a good idea. Once I have a definite picture of all costs (Taiwan vs US), I'll be able to make a decision.

Jimbones,

I agree with you. I love getting kits or commissioning direct sales manufacturers for all my gear whenever possible.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
After I left that place, I hopped in a taxi and rode to another shop that sells just one brand - Royce Audio. Two models are large-ish two-way standmount speakers, tube amps, tube pre, phono amp. I hope to get me Fritz speakers in there so I can compare sounds. I think these speakers are a bit on the warm side. I didn't ask about pricing of any of the components because I knew damned well it was all well above my pay grade. Hell, the owner knew it too, but he was thrilled to have a foreigner in there offering insight and opinions. We're Facebook buddies now. LOL! He's going to send me a free one-day pass to next month's Taipei Audio Show.  

Walking to the bus terminal to get my ride home was a humbling experience. In Oregon I am not considered poor by any stretch of imagination, but I felt poor walking through the Hsinyi district of Taipei. I might be able to afford a parking space (to live in) in that area. There is a lot of money floating around in Taipei.

[mresseguie]

Update:

I chatted with the guys at the DIY shop two days ago. The owner will take delivery of a bunch of SB Acoustics drivers in about two weeks. They are now the sole SBA distributors in Taiwan. Pricing of individual drivers is still unknown. I did not ask for a 'finders fee' discount, but I will once prices are discussed.

I contacted Danny Richie about designing the speakers, but bumped into an ugly Taiwanese created barrier designed to discourage buying outside of Taiwan. [This barrier is different from the inescapable 21% import duty.] Over the years many folks have tried to get round the taxation and artificially high prices in Taiwan by directly importing cheaper products and selling them for profits. As a result,  the Gov't, the Taiwan Tax Bureau, and Customs work hand-in-hand to identify and tax/fine the sneaky bastards who try to do it. One consequence of this 'eagle eye' attention is that poor schmucks like myself who want to import a couple pairs of speakers (1 pr just ain't enough!) get raked over the coals and added to a database of known 'importers'. As soon as a new pair of speakers arrives at Customs, a red flag will pop up and they will accuse me of trying to bypass honest business practices, taxation, etc.

I found this all out because we have two friends who either work at or own import/export/shipping businesses who told us all about the 'game' and how difficult it is to get around the restrictions. One suggested I apply for a business license to avoid future problems. Of course, that requires filling out tax forms every year, keeping records, red tape, etc.  I will look into this idea.

Depending on how much the DIY shop wants to design and build speakers, I will either allow them to do it all, or I may ask Danny to go ahead and design the speakers for me, but have the cabinets built here. Danny would ship only the drivers, crossovers, and <possibly> front baffles.

I'm waffling between using the new Satori tweeters and Scan Speak 9900 tweeters. I already own two pairs of speakers that use ring radiator tweeters, so I'm really tempted to try something else even though I know I like them.

More in my next post...

Michael



 

[richidoo]

Very interesting! Thanks for the update.

Sounds like you got the speaker building itch reeeeal bad Michael. I know the feeling. Try this:

[rollo]

 Michael it is a pleasure to have you here. This post is what this place is all about. Having fun, learning and helping each other.
  This is a fun read. Keep it up.


charles

[mresseguie]

Rollo,

Thanks! I'll take that encouragement and double my efforts! 

Richie,

It's going to take something a lot stronger than that to fix my itch. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So I've got questions about crossovers. Since I'm ordering these custom speakers, I get to decide the quality level of the XO. Pretty much any brand you can find in the States is available in Taiwan. Here are the cap brands listed on their website:

Amtrans 日本 Japan
AudioCap 美國 USA
Auricap 美國
BHC 英國 England
Black Gate 黑爵超電容
Cardas 美國
Caritycap 英國
Duelund 丹麥 Denmark
ELNA 日本
ERSE PulseX 美國
Hovland MusiCap 美國
Jensen 丹麥
KimberKap 美國
MultiCap MIT 美國
OS-CON 日本
OdioCap 英國 new
ROE
Rel-Cap 美國
Rifa 瑞典 Sweden
Rike Audio 德國 Germany
Solen/SCR/AXON 法國 France
Soshin Mica 雙信銀雲母
Sprague 史普瑞
WIMA 德國
Wonder DynamiCap /InfiniCap 美國
NOS oil Cap & Others 古典油質電容與其他
Cap Brace 電容固定夾

and the inductors:

ERSE Super Q 美國
Duelund 丹麥
IT 德國
Jensen 丹麥
OdiO 美國
Solen 加拿大
Solo CFAC 美國

and the resistors:

Amtrans 日本
AB
CADDOCK 美國
Duelund 丹麥
Holco 英國
IRC 美國
Mills 美國
MEC CGS 英國
福島雙羽 日本
RIKEN理研 日本
Skelton金屬氧化 日本
TDO 東京光音
Takman 日本
Vishay Z-FOIL T2575 美國
Vishay Dale系列

With so many choices, I'd like to slim it down to a couple good solid brands. Dueland is too expensive. Mundorf is probably okay with my budget, so what is comparable? I've been warned by Taiwanese enthusiasts to steer clear of Bennic.

How big a deal are foil inductors over wire inductors?

I've read about Supra wire used as connecting wire. It's available. Any opinions? I also know about TWL wire used as connecting wire. Pete, shipping? Pricing?

Okay. That's all for now.

[jimbones]

Oh, you can make yourself nuts over this. I selected the best price/performance ratio or value rather than cost no object. I am using jantzen superior z cap and Mills resistors. I use janzen air core coils everywhere except the LP on the woofer which is a large value. i used a iron core inductor as I believe the DCR in an air core at that large values is too high and I get more punch bass from a iron core coil. I love what I have an i am reluctant to make any "improvements" for fear I may screw it up. But you did give me the rash and I am itching to build a 2 way speaker now.

[richidoo]

Many of those caps are good. I believe price is significant of quality, ymmv.

Like jimbones, I use Jantzen Superior-Z caps, ERSE air core coils, mills resistors. These are medium quality, moderate price parts. They are more than good enough for high end sound quality and the highest satisfaction in music listening. They are good enough for the very best XO design, and they allow the ultimate refinement come through.  These are better than 98% of high end commercial speaker XO parts. They are not hyper detailed, which is a negative imo. Above this price level the advantages are getting that last 1% of refinement and more detail. It's not worth it imo. Once you are sitting down listening, these parts will be "mind blowing enough." Your XO design and driver quality will have to be pretty good to need better parts than these.

If you're gonna use a cap at line level filter before a full range amplifier, or on a beryllium or ribbon tweeter, then the highest quality cap is suitable, because you will hear the difference. But a midrange driver rolls of by 2500, so the extreme refinement is not needed because there is no treble. Soft domes, similarly don't need the same extreme refined caps as rigid diaphragms, imo. That said, I can guarantee B&W doesn't use $200 caps on their diamond tweeters. Youhave to consider how the driver works, what are the possible distortion modes. Distortion is a real part of all audio. It is everywhere. The object is not so much to avoid it, but manipulating the character of the distortion to compliment the overall tone quality of the system is the goal. My point: every tweeter will prefer a different cap. I have no desire at all to upgrade from Jantzen Superior-Z with my Satori dimple domes. ymmv.  If I were detail addict I'd want ribbons or Be or DMD tweeters and caps to allow full detail to come through. I've had titanium/Be and sapphire tweeters with both good and shit caps and I just don't want to be there. It is detail crack addict audiophile misery.  Satori dimple dome is more than enough detail but not distracting from music. ymwv

Bennics were in 2 commercial speakers I've owned, including the current. They are OK, but I view them as the Solen Caps of the far east, but Solens are worse, ime.

I've seen Wonder family, Rel family, Clarity, MultiCap family caps inside amps that I've owned and I had no desire to improve on them. But every application is different.  Too detailed gear doesn't sell, because addicts are not good long term customers. "First do no harm."

Plain ole air core wire wound coils are fine. Larger ga wire is usually better as long as the DCR is taken into account. Danny Richie once derided Jantzen coils for non-pure copper windings, but I haven't heard any other mention of that issue, nor have I explored it myself, since I can buy ERSE or similar quality on meniscus or PE for reasonable price. I have used Jantzen coils with good results.

For the same value Mills will sound more detailed and alive than metal oxide, so Mills may require more attenuation to stay musically balanced. It's OK for designing a new speaker from scratch, but replacing metal oxides in a commercial design with Mills will definitely upset the balance, and increasing the Mills value may not restore balance.

Wire makes a big difference, as do the speaker posts. It's important to use high copper content wire and posts. Avoid low quality brass and especially cast zinc posts like those $6 things come in 5 different painted metal colors. If it's high copper it will say it. Price is significant of quality, imo. Teflon insulated silver plated pure copper wire is popular for hookup. Use 16 ga minimum. I use JPS speaker cable inside my speakers. Vinyl insulated wire (zip cord) should be avoided, imo.

[jimbones]

Spot on Rich. I used heavy copper Cardas posts and internally wired with true OCC copper wire and it did make a difference. I am using the SB version of the Satori dimple dome that you are using. I wonder how much difference there is. I was considering the TDL dome or a Arum Cantus 2560 air motion tweeter.

[richidoo]

I first heard the normal SB dimple tweeter as the rear firing ambience tweeter for the Janzen planar speakers at CAF. I was impressed! It is incredible value for only $50. Satori is similar design. Both are very musical and confident sounding, warm, friendly, detailed, good body. Satori is just more detail. The new neo motor will have even more detail, trying to play the high end game with Scan and SEAS rigid domes. 

I don't know much about TDL or AMTs.

[richidoo]

I like this one:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/coaxial/seas-excel-c18en001/m-magnesium-cone/dome-coaxial/

It has been removed from SEAS website, but still available from dealers. SEAS says it is still in catalog, time will tell if they'll build more. Maybe it dodn't take off, or mfg difficulties.

I have Infinity CMMD drivers in mid fi speakers Always loved how those drivers sounded. Magnesium is stiff but self damping. Perfect material for speaker cone. Except that it burns uncontrollably if ignited.