Author Topic: Embarking on a Semi-DIY New Speaker Project  (Read 15303 times)

Offline mresseguie

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Embarking on a Semi-DIY New Speaker Project
« on: November 12, 2015, 05:32:13 PM »
Howdy from Taiwan.

I can normally be found in Oregon, but I have been in Taiwan since September and I will not return to the States until March or April. While I am here, I have too much free time on my hands, so I'm slowly going bonkers.

In order to recover some sanity, I just rented a small plot of land on which I can garden. As I'm the first ever foreigner in that gardening space, I get showered with attention, but get little done - too much gabbing.

I have a new project to keep sane (or lose even more?). I'm going to create a new pair of two-way speakers. I have zero tools here, so I must farm out a lot of the labor to professionals or hobbyists. I want to use the new Satori drivers (7.5" 4 Ohm midwoofer/Neodymium tweeter) for this pair. Since no one else has made a pair and presented it as a kit, I'm left with either designing my own crossover (I'd rather jump into a dirty nasty pollution filled river of which there are plenty here) or allowing a service here to do it for me. I've chosen the latter option.

With this in mind, how can I tell if the crossover being developed is good, bad, excellent, etc.? Pretty much any component available in N. America is available in Taiwan. There is a fairly large DIY community here, but I've only just scratched the surface of it.

My cabinets will be made by a cabinet maker or someone in the DIY community. I'm waiting for estimates and to meet with the woodworkers to gauge their ability. Good quality MDF and even Baltic Birch is available here.

Apparently no one uses SB Acoustics drivers in the DIY community here, so my drivers will be the first ones in Taiwan. I find this idea amazing, but exciting. I want my new speakers to sound F!@#ing amazing.

Okay, that's all for now. I'll follow up later.

Michael
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Embarking on a Semi-DIY New Speaker Project
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2015, 06:44:12 PM »
Hey Michael! That sounds like a lot of fun to be in Taiwan!

Some things to check for in your new crossover, stand up and sit down, changing your vertical ear height. The speakers should sound the same either way with only mild change due to room reflections, etc. This is good vertical integration with no major cancellation lobes in the vertical listening window. Also the same with the horizontal off axis angles. The speaker will roll off the farther off axis you go, but it should not have an abrupt drastic change of tone with minor horixontal angle changes. This is power response. The sound going to the sides lights up the room and walls and if it is bad off-axis FR then the speakers have bad power response and will sound less good.  This has to do with the due to narrowing sound "beam" of a driver with rising freq , and also the XO frequency and slope of the crossover. The larger the driver cone the lower freq its starts beaming. Tweeter with wide dispersion at xo freq takes over from woofer at the freq where woofer is starting to beam too much. Then both drivers have good dispersion in their bands, and speaker has good power response.

The xo should have baffle step compensation. Meaning the bass freqs are boosted to compensate for the narrow width of the baffle.
https://www.trueaudio.com/st_diff1.htm
Ifnot, it will have very thin bass, sound too detailed and fatiguing. For every dB of BSC you add to boostthe bass, you lose that dB in midrange sensitivity. Usually 3-4dB is about right, tweak by ear.

The speaker should sound as open and airy clear and dynamic as your kairos, since drivers are essentially very similar. You don't really need the neo tweeter, because you will have to pad it down to be as soft as the woofer which is only 91dB. The ferrite satori tweeter is about 91 iirc so that's a better match. The final SPL of the speaker with that woofer and 3dB of BSC should be about 87-88. SO you don't need a 96dB tweeter, you'll have to pad it down anyway.

Maybe this will help you understand some of the principles of speaker and XO design.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/189847-introduction-designing-crossovers-without-measurement.html
I've not read it, but it seems like it should be great! YMMV! :)

Another strategy might be to star off with a loose copy of the Kairos XO. Since you know the design of that, you can plug it into your simulator and fiddle with the values to adjust for the different drivers. Might be a good place to start, if you have measuring and simulator.

Have fun, enjoy the great adventure!
Rich

Offline mresseguie

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Re: Embarking on a Semi-DIY New Speaker Project
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2015, 07:59:44 PM »
Im lying on my tummy with 20-plus accupuncture needles in my lower back and butt to treat a sore tail bone. Lots of fun.  :shock:

Rich,

I was hoping you'd chime in here. Thank you.

I really dont understand whats involved with XO design, so I shall accept what you said. I guess i expected the new tweeter to be a perfect match for the 7.5" woofer. This is why i chose it. I havent ordered it yet so no worries. Would the Scan Speak 9900 match as well or better that the Kairos' tweeter? It was one of my choices.
I had hoped the speakers would have higher sensitivity.

So much to learn...

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Offline richidoo

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Re: Embarking on a Semi-DIY New Speaker Project
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2015, 06:57:58 AM »
Im lying on my tummy with 20-plus accupuncture needles in my lower back and butt to treat a sore tail bone. Lots of fun.  :shock:

Feel better Michael!

Quote
So much to learn...

Well said!  The fun of DIY is the learning.

You can learn the basic concepts by reading some good books.
The Loudspeaker Cookbook - Vance Dickason
Testing Loudspeakers - Joe D'Appolito
and of course, diyaudio.com has great info for every level.

Next, learn to use the measuring and simulation tools. This is really where it's at nowadays. The clarity and tonal balance you are expecting when buying such good drivers requires flat FR and good driver integration (phase, dispersion, FR.) You can guess by listening to music if it's good or not good, but you'll delude yourself and miss opportunities for improvement. Seeing the exact problem on paper and learning how to fix it is better. Test listening to changes with others is important. Your brains hook up telepathically and you can hear flaws better together than you can alone. Having friends over to listen to your system and listening to others' is the best way to improve your system and to go broke.  :lol:

Another good way to learn XO design is to find local DIY speaker guys who know more than you and ask for their help with your speakers, just as you are planning to do. The biggest obstacle to the fun of DIY speaker building is the cost of the parts, so if you supply the parts, you can find people willing to share in your fun. One or two of them might really know what they're doing and you can learn a TON, because you can ask them questions specific to your problem at hand and they explain it in a way you can understand right now. But if you want them to do it for you, they might want to get paid. If you do it yourself and ask them for ton of help, they will enjoy playing Yoda for you, as long as you take their advice and go do it yourself. Gets back to The fun of DIY is the learning. Sometimes it doesn't seem fun when you don't understand. But full immersion in problems forces solutions and gives experience which is different than knowledge.

Another good way to learn is buy some inexpensive but good drivers that are popular among DIYers, that you know work together, like Dayton, etc. The SBs will work too, but that's $700 instead of $200. But the Satoris add to the excitement and motivation to succeed, dreaming of magnificent audio fantasies! Then once you have the drivers in a box you can learn how to measure them, and how to simulate a crossover with your own drivers' measurements. Fiddle with the simulator, you'll learn what changing each part does. You may not understand why but you'll see the graphs change when you scroll the values. This is how you learn what changes to make when you hear a problem with your ears. Find a solution to the sim puzzle that gives flat FR and good phase response (you learned what that means from reading the books, or web articles, etc.)

Run your design by an expert for sanity check, then build your simulated crossover using moderately cheap parts at first. Measure with microphone to see if it matches your performance predictions and figure out why not (by asking questions of your friends or forum.) When it measures good and sounds good, then upgrade the parts if you want, be aware that better parts have may slightly different measurements of their own (coils,) and different psychological effects (resistors and caps) so some tweaking to taste is always necessary.

Two parallel 7" 8ohm satori woofers will give you 95dB midrange sensitivity in theory. The neo tweeter will need only a small resistor to match the woofers. But that's before baffle step correction, so you have two choices. Use a wide baffle to lower the BS freq and add bass drivers. Or, you could just add a simple active or passive line level filter ahead of your amp to do the BSC.

Offline rollo

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Re: Embarking on a Semi-DIY New Speaker Project
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2015, 07:46:02 AM »
   Interesting conversation. Have fun trying.

charles
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Offline HAL

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Re: Embarking on a Semi-DIY New Speaker Project
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2015, 08:41:17 AM »
A very good inexpensive way to do speaker measurements is with Room EQ Wizard and a Dayton Audio UMM-6 calibrated mic.  You can adjust the measurement range to include 20Hz to 20KHz.  You just need a decent audio card in a PC to use with the USB mic. 

Good luck with the learning and build.


Offline jimbones

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Re: Embarking on a Semi-DIY New Speaker Project
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2015, 08:47:00 AM »
Rich,

Using the 2 Satori 7 inch woofers:
Is is recommended to be sealed or vented? and what do you expect the F3 to be? (I am considering them for a 2 1/2 way speaker)
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Embarking on a Semi-DIY New Speaker Project
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2015, 11:46:57 AM »
Hey Jim,
No clue! I haven't simulated it.

Load up this free box sim software:
http://www.linearteam.org/download/winisd-07x.exe

Get the factory specs from Madisound:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-7-woofers-satori/satori-mw19p-8-7.5-egyptian-papyrus-cone-woofer-8-ohm/

Plug in specs, sim ported box, adjust box parameters to your preferences.

I try to stick to the advice in this article for setting ported box parameters:
http://www.loudspeakersplus.com/choosing_the_correct_speaker.html
It makes a bigger box, but should be good for music.

The madisound page also offers box recommendations. Double the volume and port area for 2 drivers. Simulator does this auto
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 11:49:50 AM by richidoo »

Offline jimbones

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Re: Embarking on a Semi-DIY New Speaker Project
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2015, 12:38:10 PM »
Oh I know how to do it. I was just wondering if you had actually used them before and happened to remember the numbers. I was reading an article by Paul Barton and he recommends 3 woofers to minimize room interactions. I was thinking of 3 of those drivers. That would get expensive.

edit: looking at the info it looks like a single unit in a sealed enclosure is 80hz and vented 50hz.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 12:44:08 PM by jimbones »
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Embarking on a Semi-DIY New Speaker Project
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2015, 02:09:23 PM »
Sorry Jim.

I have the 6.5" Satori. The 7.5" is supposed to be even better even in mids.

Offline mresseguie

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Re: Embarking on a Semi-DIY New Speaker Project
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2015, 06:46:55 PM »
Hey Jim,
No clue! I haven't simulated it.

Load up this free box sim software:
http://www.linearteam.org/download/winisd-07x.exe

Get the factory specs from Madisound:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-7-woofers-satori/satori-mw19p-8-7.5-egyptian-papyrus-cone-woofer-8-ohm/

Plug in specs, sim ported box, adjust box parameters to your preferences.

I try to stick to the advice in this article for setting ported box parameters:
http://www.loudspeakersplus.com/choosing_the_correct_speaker.html
It makes a bigger box, but should be good for music.

The madisound page also offers box recommendations. Double the volume and port area for 2 drivers. Simulator does this auto

Awesome! I did not know about this. Thank you.

I'll try it out later today or as time permits.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here's where my mind is on all of this now: I'm feeling pretty intimidated by how complex it all is. I envision the possibility for error (creating a bad sounding speaker) as huge if I attempt this on my own with the more expensive Satori drivers. I like your advice about trying it with inexpensive drivers first.

I need to better understand the skill level of the guys at the shop in Taipei to make a more informed decision about using the 7.5" Satori drivers.

Keep chatting, guys. I learn from it!

Thanks,

Michael
Daedalus Audio Apollos; Fritz Loudspeakers LS/5-R
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Embarking on a Semi-DIY New Speaker Project
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2015, 07:40:39 PM »
Here's something interesting Jim.
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project11/Satori_MTM_Bass_Reflex_Speaker_System.pdf

Michael, you'll figure out what to do. Follow your gut. You could try an existing DIY design if you want more assurance of success. But that might not teach you much design skill.

Offline mresseguie

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Re: Embarking on a Semi-DIY New Speaker Project
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2015, 07:50:52 AM »
I got word today that one of the potential speaker cabinet builders had determined an estimated cost for a completed pair of cabinets based on dimensions supplied by me. He gave a range of $55,000 - $65,000 NTD (New Taiwan Dollars). In USD: approximately $1700 to $2050.

Needless to say I was shocked. The dimensions I gave him were something like 20" high X 10" w X 12" d. I didn't actually know what size to give, so I erred on the large size.

My Adelphos cabinets cost me about $350 with a burl veneer.

I will hopefully find more reasonable bids from the second possibility.
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Offline jimbones

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Re: Embarking on a Semi-DIY New Speaker Project
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2015, 07:57:06 AM »
 :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :?
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Offline Werd

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Re: Embarking on a Semi-DIY New Speaker Project
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2015, 11:13:04 AM »
sounds more like kitchen cabinets he was quoting..  :rofl:
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