Author Topic: Kairos  (Read 48319 times)

Offline Nick B

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Re: Kairos
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2013, 12:19:00 AM »
Yes, nice work indeed. It was interesting to check out the electracable website again.  I'm looking forward to the finished product
Nick
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Offline sleepyguy24

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Re: Kairos
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2013, 06:49:28 AM »
Same here. I'm looking forward to the finished product as well. I wish I could be there to listen to them at your next g2g.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Kairos
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2013, 03:10:47 PM »
A guy over on PE forum wisely suggested I remove the STEEL bolts from inside the air coils. DUH!  :duh    I ordered some nylon replacements today. 

$500 for coils and I sabotage them before they even play one note.  haha

Offline tmazz

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Re: Kairos
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2013, 07:21:46 AM »
God don't make no junk...... and neither does Rich!   :thumb:
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline hometheaterdoc

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Re: Kairos
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2013, 07:57:26 AM »
looking forward to giving them a listen...

got new parts from sonicraft... so far, albeit early in the break-in, liking the changes that the dynamicaps make on the Zephyrs...  tames the compression driver in a way that I like better than all the other stuff I have here does, including all my different oil caps...  

should have these to their new owner next week when he is back in town... now on to the 3Pis and the BMS4550/SEOS12/AE TD15M designs.... all the parts except some WBT Nextgen binding posts and mundorf silver/oils caps for one spot in tweeter circuit of 3Pis are here for those....I've got mundorf supreme in the right size, but not the silver oils... so much for clearing out these storage tubs full of crossover parts if I keep buying more stuff :(..... calling madisound in a minute to get the rest of that stuff here asap... keep forgetting to do it until after they close...

Red Wine Signature 57 finally got here after 5 days of shipper trying to find where they put the box... that's breaking in on the zephyrs now...  got a very similar house sound to the Signature 16 I've been listening to, but definitely can tell the tube stage isn't in there....

there's gonna be enough stuff here to have a G2G of my own soon.... and I haven't even done any more measurements on the big boy horn projects.... not enough hours in the day when you have little boys that want 100% of every minute :)...
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 07:59:45 AM by hometheaterdoc »
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Used to be Night & Day Audio.......

Offline richidoo

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Re: Kairos
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2013, 09:37:28 AM »
They are starting to come alive now after about 20 hours. At first there was no center image at all. But it is starting to focus now.

I listened to my newest Julia Fischer album about 5 times yesterday, over and over. Wow, the detail on the strings is awesome. Percussion too. Basically the tweeter with this huge coil is a MONSTER. But totally inoffensive, since it is a soft dome.

Mono recordings make a center image strong enough to perceive while I am reading or typing, not even concentrating or looking at the speakers. Imaging was a disaster at first.

The woofer coils are about 200 feet of 10ga magnet wire. Remembering back to the first set of speaker wires I had, Anticable which were 8ga magnet wire, I was worried that if 8 feet of the stuff is THAT bad, then 200feet might not be so great either. But I went on faith that so many good opinions of North Creek big coils are the best available. I don't hear the copper ringing or trashing noise of the Anticable at all. But breaking in all that dielectric probably takes a little extra while than 10 feet of 18ga steel lam coil that came with the kit.

One problem that is becoming more obvious as the focus improves is that I am hearing a little bit of stuffiness in the low midrange. Some possible reasons for this:

1. Steel mounting bolts in the center of the woofer coils are adding hysteresis. Not sure if that would be audible, but the resolution of these drivers with these 10ga coils is unbelievable, so maybe. I am replacing the steel bolts and buts with nylon bolts and thread inserts. Parts ordered and on the way.

2. Binding post holes. The boxes are sealed, no ports. The posts I am using are Electratubes, which are basically just plastic bushings with conductors through them. After I do the wood finishing I will press them in to seal up the 7/16" holes. But for now I am running the wires out through the holes and clamping the bare wires in some brass posts to connect them to my bananas. On high volume tunes I can feel air through the open holes. At normal listening levels I can't feel any air motion, so I don't know if these small holes might have an audible effect. Today I will solder on the electratubes and push them into the holes just enough to plug them, not all the way in.  twss

3. Too much stuffing. I am also hearing a slight softness to midrange instruments, so I think I need to pull out some stuffing. I don't think this would blur the low midrange, though. If anything, it should make them even tighter by increased damping of the driver motion.

4. The 17 liter box is supposed to be Qts ~ .7. Maybe Q is higher due to smaller box than expected or variation of driver Q. This would give a bass bump and some looseness at the bump.

5. It could be cabinet vibration. I am using all kitty corner bracing which links adjacent walls and reaches in about 3 inches to the 1/3rd width of the cabinet. The box is pretty solid to knock test. But on high volume bass heavy songs I can feel vibration on the sides. I can add a couple cross braces inside the box to link the sides together against internal pressure. This might be the most likely cause.

EDIT, or it could be that 20 hours is not enough break in time... That's my bad habit of thinking too much before break in is finished.

Any other opinions on what can cause minor low mid blur in a small bookshelf? Most audible on acoustic bass and deep male voice. Probably 60-100Hz. Thanks
Rich
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 02:13:13 PM by richidoo »

Offline Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Kairos
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2013, 10:48:28 AM »
Great looking project Rich! I love the profile you put on the front baffles, very sexy. Had I seen this thread a couple weeks ago, I would have bought a router bit to mirror that exact profile for the speaker I'm building right now.

How much did the kit cost?

Bob

Offline richidoo

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Re: Kairos
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2013, 12:23:47 PM »
Hi Bob!  :D

Thanks. The roundover are a bit too big for a hand router so I did them with tablesaw, plane and sander. The top angle is 104 degrees, not 90, so router wouldn't work there anyway.

The kit cost me $832 shipped for the "basic" kit, which is only drivers and crossover components, nothing else.  The full kit comes with very cheap parts to get it running, but in my opinion they are not good enough for these drivers. I probably have about $1500 in it with wood, upgrade crossover, and other parts. 

In response to the roaring world economy :roll: SB Acoustics recently reduced the price of the drivers, so Meniscus has reduced the price of the kit. A basic kit is now $705 shipped. I haven't heard the kit crossover yet, but the drivers alone are worth that, imo, at least in comparison to other brand drivers playing in this league. The kit crossover parts are as cheap as it gets, but that's how the designer Jeff Bagby listens to it and he likes it.

Offline Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Kairos
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2013, 12:32:54 PM »
Thanks Rich.

Sounds one of those kits that you can "take it as-is", or is plenty ripe for adding some audiophile zazzing to, and making it your own. Since you're knocking on the door of a grand, a fellow could take that up to a couple grand pretty easily.

Sounds like a fun project (assuming you wanted to make it that), but based on how you installed the XO parts, it looks like you didn't build it for tweaking and fiddling often.
I'm curious to know if you can hear a difference with the nylon bolt as opposed to the steel. I know of one fellow that drills and glues a wooden dowel with a wooden cap ("lid") to the wooden block and captures the inductor that way, with no ferrous material involved. Just an idea.

Rock on man. Great thread.  :thumb:

Bob

Offline richidoo

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Re: Kairos
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2013, 02:11:43 PM »
Thanks Bob! It's always so much fun when you come to visit!  :thumb:

Previous projects have taught me it's better to start with good parts and not have to worry about cheap parts quality being the cause of tuning issues. I guess with more experience I could use cheaper parts without problems. I could have used Duelund caps but I thought that was overkill, and I knew the Jantzens are nice and I liked how they sounded in my previous build. I may put Duelund resistors in later.

That's a good idea about wooden clamp down for the coil. I have wooden center spacers and washers drilled with 1/4" center holes. But I want to be able to remove the xo parts if I want to go active, or whatever. I am gonna replace the steel bolts with Dubro 3" nylon RC-airplane wing hold-down bolts. They are designed to break in a crash to save the wing, so they wouldn't be strong enough to ship the speakers, but good enough for general moving around. If I sell them I'll bolt down with steel for shipping.

Offline Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Kairos
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2013, 02:57:21 PM »
Thanks Bob! It's always so much fun when you come to visit!  :thumb:

 :rofl: I'm not "quite" sure how to take that, but since I've had a few drinks and am feeling a general sense of self awesomeness, I'll take it as a complement.
Thanks Rich.  :thumb:

It sounds like you've got the inductor hold-down figured out, but since I'm a man with problem solving flowing through his veins, another idea occurred to me. Since you aren't here to stop me right now as I type this, I'll go ahead and tell ya what I've got in my noggin.

Let's just say the center hole in the inductor is 1.5" in diameter. I'd grab a 1.25" dowel rod, and use a forstner bit to recess the rod into the XO plate (put some glue in there). Then recess the rod into the "cap" that will hold the top of the inductor (don't put glue in there). Then you could drill a pilot hole through the center of the cap, and center of the dowel rod. At that point, you could use a small wood screw to hold things together. The benefit here is that with a simple small Phillips screwdriver, you could take the inductor out, but still have the 1.25" dowel rod at the center of the mass to hold things together.

But then again, I tend to over engineer things.
You could also drill some small holes in the XO plate and use cable ties and hot glue to hold the inductor firmly in place and be done with it.  :duh

Ok....that's enough of that.  :D
Bob

Offline richidoo

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Re: Kairos
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2013, 10:17:39 PM »
Yes, that might work!

I think UPS could destroy it, but then they could probably destroy the steel bolt idea too if they dropped it just right.

These coils are probably 15 pounds each, 5.5" round, 2" thick. They really should be built into a separate XO box, blocked in with wood on all sides. But that would make the box too big or make the internal volume too small. Probably already eating into the designed volume too much.

Thanks Bob!

Offline Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Kairos
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2013, 06:10:41 AM »
15 pounds each!?!?  :shock:
Knowing that, I'd put them squarely at the bottom of the stand, right by the floor. Use the weight to help keep it from being so top heavy.

But yea, a disgruntled underpaid guy driving around in a big dark metal box in the summertime with no air conditioning definitely has the ability to break your shit.

Bob

Offline richidoo

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Re: Kairos
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2013, 04:47:40 PM »
Yup, when I build the tower version with subwoofers I'll put the coils in the bottom.

My UPS guy is an amateur musician, makes records people and produces songs on his computer at home. He hangs out for an extra minute when I'm outside building speakers. Not this time of year tho! Unfortunately, all UPS employees are not like that.   I had a friend back in NY in 85 who worked at UPS transfer station in Manhattan. He said they time you with a stopwatch to see if you throw (yes throw) enough boxes per minute to deserve your job. As long as somebody catches it, no problem!  :thumb:

Offline rollo

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Re: Kairos
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2013, 08:16:34 AM »
Bob like the dowel idea. May I suggest the dowel extend to top of inductor and use a wood cap to hold in place. Looking like a mushroom. May add some resonance control as well.
    Hey Shane good to see you posting again. Rich making progress, learning and having fun "Priceless".



charles
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