Author Topic: Big horn experiments - AE TD15M, TD15H, SEOS24, Iwata300, JBL beryllium & BMS  (Read 23538 times)

Offline hometheaterdoc

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With all the outside forces pulling me away from these projects, I thought if I posted this in public, it might help shame me or otherwise pressure me to actually get my derriere in gear and put some focus on actually getting these things done......

Richidoo has built me a set of woofer cabinets that will form the basis for 4+ different speakers in one.  His original woofer cabinet design plans are attached to this first post.  

Basically, the idea breaks down like this:

- dual 15" woofer enclosure, each with it's own sealed enclosure space within the larger box...  The same woofers will be used in all speaker designs.

- 4 separate 1.5" thick pieces of birch plywood "mounting plates" that are the same dimensions as the top of the woofer module.  To those "plates" will be mounted a JBL 2509a adjustable position bracket (http://www.jblpro.com/components/2500ser_02.htm).  I have two pairs of the JBL2509a mounts for now, one pair for each pair of horns I plan to experiment with.  To those 2509a mounts will be bolted one of two different horns and one of 3-4 different compression drivers.  The "mounting plates" are substantial enough to be free standing.  But they will be sitting loose on top of the woofer box, likely on some sort of isolation material (I'll experiment).  whenever you want to swap the horn/CD combo being played, just lift the assembly off the box and put the other mounting plate assembly in place.  Crossovers will be external to allow easy swapping of the horns and CDs.

Horns:

SEOS 24 1.5" entry horn/waveguide in black gel coat fiberglass finish from vendor in Poland:  http://www.diysoundgroup.com/plastic-seos-12/fiberglass-seos/seos24.html

IWATA-300 2" entry horn/waveguide in black gel coat fiberglass finish from vendor in Poland:  http://www.diysoundgroup.com/horns/autotech-horns/iwata300.html

I also have a pair of JBL 2352 1.5" entry cinema horns for $hits and giggles that can be used for comparison

Compression Drivers:

JBL 2446 2" exit compression driver with Truextant beryllium replacement diaphragms installed in place of the factory 4" titanium diaphragms.

JBL 2447 1.5" exit compression drivers with factory diaphragms installed (they were supposed to be for the SEOS 24s but the bolt pattern doesn't match and I'm not screwing with building a custom mount plate.  I've got a pair of JBL 2450SL 1.5" neo CDs in a holding pattern that I could drop the other set of beryllium replacement diaphragms in to listen to on the SEOS24 horn.  but I'm going to start with the BMS 4505ND CD listed below and make a decision later

BMS 4592ND 2" exit neo compression driver.  This is a coaxial compression driver with a mid and high frequency diaphragm inside the same assembly.  The manufacturer's reasoning is that it allows for much better high frequency extension, while also allowing a 400hz midrange crossover point on an appropriate horn.  Each diaphragm can work within its ideal operating range without having to stress and extend beyond its capabilities.  So with the appropriate horn you can get 400hz - >20K without having to resort to multiple horns and multiple CDs.

BMS 4595ND 1.5" exit neo compression driver.  Again, this is a coaxial CD design to allow extension in both directions without the typical beaming or HF extension issues associated with a single diaphragm.

In the woofer cabinet, the top 15" woofer closest to the horns will be the Acoustic Elegance TD15M.... http://www.aespeakers.com/drivers.php?driver_id=4  ...  This is a very efficent woofer that (if manufacturer specs are to be trusted) can easily extend up past 2K off axis before crossing over to the high frequency drivers.  I don't intend to run them that high... but we'll get to that in a second.  By running the TD15M sealed in this size enclosure, it's a nice overall Qts figure and it should start a nice controlled rolloff (before room forces factor in) at ~80Hz.  

The bottom 15" woofer will be the Acoustic Elegance TD15H http://www.aespeakers.com/drivers.php?driver_id=10  This woofer will be powered separately by a pro style amplifier that has DSP, EQ, and crossovers built in.  The idea is that I will use it to essentially be my subwoofer/midwoofer and cross it in wherever the TD15M rolls off, as well as use the EQ to level out the bass response of the system as flat as possible in room.  The bass load will also be taken off the TDB15m and horn system so that I can use lower powered amplifiers on that setup and let the solid state pro amp handle the heavy lifting down low... If boosting is necessary to flatten out the deepest ranges given the sealed enclosure versus porting it, no problem as it has enough Xmax to allow a little boost.  I dont' intend to play the system at insane volumes.  The idea is to explore high efficiency, low compression drivers and see if they offer any advantages over lower efficiency consumer options that are typically employed in a lot of commercial speakers out there.... basically try to build a speaker setup that takes advantage of some of Sol's lower powered amp designs, or some lower powered tube options out there.

The entire system has to be measured and crossovers designed for all the various incarnations of the horns and compression drivers available.... I'll be targeting as low a crossover point between the horn/CD and TD15M woofer as possible... but will ultimately settle on whatever crossover point sounds the best.  It will likely be ~500Hz... time will tell.  Regardless, it should still be in a range that the TD15M shouldn't strain to cover...

So far, the woofer boxes were designed and built on a budget thanks to Richidoo.  They are 1.5" thick walls all around with MDF and 13-ply dense birch plywood laminated together to manipulate cabinet wall resonances... cabinets are braced pretty well by Rich, but I may add a few more after stuffing with the blackhole material, stuffing, and giving them a listen...  maybe more cross and front to back braces if the cabinets still are not dead silent...  Other than putting the casters on so I can roll these behemoths around, little else has been done in the couple weeks I've had them here.....  I really have zero time to do these DIY experiments but I really want to play with them....... I'm going to play with some cabinet finishing techniques on these boxes first before doing anything else....  hopefully in another week or so, if I dont' get too much flak from the "Boss" or the inevitable slew of interruptions in personal life, I'll be ready to start the measurement process to commence crossover simulations/design.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 10:54:35 AM by hometheaterdoc »
Shane Sangster
Used to be Night & Day Audio.......

Offline mdconnelly

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Pretty damn awesome, Shane!   Not sure how you're finding the time, but it sure looks like you're having fun.

In the meantime, I think those bass cabinets could double as playhouses for Ryan.  How cool would that be  :thumb:

It will be interesting to see how you're going to swap those horns... ain't no small thing ;-)

Offline Bill O'Connell

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What, no front ports?

 Running these with Tad1601A's for the bottom end with Martinelli wood horns with JBL2470 for mids with JBL2404 for tweets.
 Dynamic to say the least.

http://picasaweb.google.com/tmoble/Stevewalls1213

 My buddy who I bought them from says he has 2k in the crossovers alone

Bill O'Connell,
Retired /Morningstar Audio/Eastern Electric distributor for North America
847-255-1150
"If your playing more than 3 chords your just showing off"  John Lee Hooker

Offline Bill O'Connell

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Bill O'Connell,
Retired /Morningstar Audio/Eastern Electric distributor for North America
847-255-1150
"If your playing more than 3 chords your just showing off"  John Lee Hooker

Offline sleepyguy24

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Wow.  :drool: I can't wait to see what the finished products will look like. Good for you Shane that you can do this type of project. I don't know how you do it. Between the back issues you mentioned previously, a healthy boy, and a long day job where you find time and energy is beyond me. I'm getting tired just listing everything. Well enjoy and keep us updated.

Bigfish8

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Shane:

I hope you will invite me to hear these beasts when they are completed.  Rich has done an amazing job of building the cabinets! 

Enjoy the journey!

Ken

Offline tmazz

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Shane:

I hope you will invite me to hear these beasts when they are completed.  Rich has done an amazing job of building the cabinets! 

Enjoy the journey!

Ken

Rich ALWAYS does an amazing job, no matter what kind of cabinet he is building.  :thumb:
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline richidoo

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Thanks guys. Just don't look too close... ;)

Offline hometheaterdoc

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They're not perfect ;)  But then I specifically asked for them to be "quick and dirty"..... so that is to be expected...  I specifically asked for butt joints with brads and staples wherever possible.  I tried to design the cabinet so it went together as fast as humanly possible within the confines of Rich's equipment.  The goal was for these to be possible to finish up in a manner that they won't draw the ire of the better half if I decide to keep them... but also built to a price point that if I hate all the different options, I won't be out major bucks if I trash the cabinets and sell off the woofers and parts.

The front, top, and back of the cabinets will be sanded, any gaps will be filled with bondo or joint compound, and then they will be painted with Duratex, a black protective pro gear coating similar to bed liner, just thinner and specifically designed for this kind of purpose....  If I keep the speakers longer term, a full front grills can be made to cover the entire front in grill cloth material to hide the black finish.  The speakers themselves are going to be pushed pretty far back into the corners of the room where you will never see the backs of them.... so black on the back doesn't matter....

The sides use the birch plywood for the entire length of the side (the edge grains show on the front, top, and back faces).... they will be finish sanded and prepped for stain.  they will then be stained with a dark walnut gel stain and then finished with General Finishes Arm-R-Seal oil based lacquer finish. 

The top will always have the dual 3/4" birch plywood "mounting plates" sitting on it at all times covering up the black Duratex finish... so I'll edge band the mounting plates (or duratex just the horizontal edges where the grain shows), finish sand the top, and stain and finish that with the same walnut gel stain and lacquer finish.... so it will look like wood veneer on the sides and top, with the front baffle in black (and eventually covered with full grill) and the back will be unseen and stay in black....

I thought this was a good design to get a decent finish on teh speaker while still being able to have multiple grain and end plys from the butt joints showing....

If I get something that sounds decent out of the combinations of gear, I will most definitely be having an audio get together to let others hear....   I'll try to use one or all of a combination of passive crossover components, active crossover components, EQ on the bass driver only, EQ on the whole system (Dirac Live EQ filters via audio PC intrigue me at the moment), etc.

I just have to find some time to actually work on them....  personal life consumes almost every waking moment that isn't work related.... it takes longer and longer each day to wear Ryan out enough to go down for the night... and then he's such a light sleeper that music listening or measurement taking is not possible at any kind of enjoyable volume level :) :(  I've at least been able to accomplish one of the honey do list items of selling off most of the gear in the theater room that is virtually next to his nursery so I can convert that into a playroom... that is making the boss happy at least...  but I can't remember the last time I had this little audio and video equipment in my personal spaces..... I honestly can't remember the last time I had less than 15 pairs of speakers in my house :) :(  Ryan is one of the single best things that has ever happened to me in my life.... but he's definitely put a damper on my audio obsession for now.... hopefully when he's a little older and can keep from destroying stuff, I'll be able to ramp back up the number of toys in the house.... only two dedicated rooms for audio/video gear is nowhere near enough space :(
Shane Sangster
Used to be Night & Day Audio.......

Offline hometheaterdoc

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4+ hours of 60 grit sanding got all the edges ground down to the point there are no more lips and humps where all the butt joints meet.... Everything nice and smooth.... Damn, these boxes are big! Lots of edges showing to sand!....  Now to fill the couple gaps/cavities with some joint compound and sand that down so the gaps don't telegraph through the Duratex..

Spent the rest of the evening until now finish sanding the birch side panels... Then got the first gel stain coat on all 4 sides.... First time working with this gel stain.... It didn't wipe off consistently.... So its ever so slightly uneven now that I look at it.... I'll touch it with some 320 or 400 grit and put another coat on and hope to get it nice and consistent...  Also spray bombed the driver recesses with flat black in anticipation of the Duratex....  I preferred to do the flat black enamel rather than the Duratex that builds up a bit.... Its already a nice tight fit thanks to Rich's router skills... No sense making it a pain to fit the drivers after the fact :). Having the flat black won't let the raw MDF show just in case I don't mount the driver just perfect...

If the boss gives me another free evening like tonight, I might be able to get these pretty close to finished enough to bring in the house and load some drivers in them :). I can't remember the last time I had this much free time contiguous.... I almost feel like I accomplished something tonight :)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 09:53:16 PM by hometheaterdoc »
Shane Sangster
Used to be Night & Day Audio.......

Offline hometheaterdoc

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Re: Big horn experiments - AE TD15M, TD15H, SEOS24, Iwata300, JBL beryllium & BMS
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2013, 06:29:33 AM »
no such luck on more free evenings....  but I have been taking a few minutes later at night before crashing myself to do a single task at a time.....

- glued the pieces of 3/4" birch plywood together to make the 1.5" thick "mounting plates" that the JBL mount, compression drivers, and horns will mount to....  realized I only have enough wood cut to make one set of removable mounting plates... need to get Rich to cut me 4 more pieces of wood to make another pair....  the ones that are now glued need a lot of sanding on the edges like the cabinets themselves (moreso, honestly because my gluing and alignment skills with the limited clamps I have stink :) hehehe) to get them nice and smooth and even.... no chance to do that yet

- did get a second coat of gel stain on the birch side panels..... absolutely LOVE the stain color and how well it soaked up on the birch.... do not love the gel stain itself and how it just never quite wipes off smooth and even....  I'm sure it's operator error... but it's bugging me ever so slightly nonetheless...

next up is to get a coat of duratex on the front, top, and back... I'm going to tape off the duratex at a later date to do the finish coats of lacquer on the sides... before I do all that wet sand work and buffing, I'm going to make sure I want to keep the speakers... getting some duratex on them will make them pass the test to be allowed in the house...  hopefully some time this weekend they'll make their way inside to have some drivers loaded into them...  I've got a rough crossover for the BMS coaxes on the horns already from a quick measurement I did.... getting a ~400-500Hz crossover between woofers and CD will be much more challenging....
Shane Sangster
Used to be Night & Day Audio.......

Offline hometheaterdoc

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Re: Big horn experiments - AE TD15M, TD15H, SEOS24, Iwata300, JBL beryllium & BMS
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2013, 11:05:49 PM »
the little guy has spiked a 102+ fever since Thursday... no sickness... totally related to the 3 molars that are trying to come in all at the same time.... anyways, fever being worse at night has meant no sleep for someone as sleep is very disjointed... he's up every hour or two to get more meds to bring down the fever or to just get soothed back to sleep since he's hot and not happy....

the one and only perk of this is that if I'm going to be awake anyways, I might as well hang out in the garage between soothing sessions :) :( Updates on progress:

I sanded everything down to 400 grit smoothness... the second coat of stain on the side panels is mirror smooth.... I thought the front, top and back were the same... but all those end grains and joints have subtle gaps and nicks that it's really hard to notice until you put some primer or something on them to see really what you have...

I put a heavy coat of drywall joint compound on all the end plys and joints to fill the gaps where I could... I then sanded it smooth to a 400 grit again and tried to feather it out as best I could....the idea being that it will limit the end grains and gaps telegraphing through the duratex when I applied it if it's mostly joint compound or if the joint compound could stay in the cracks and seams...  unfortunately, no such luck in that regard.... I think I sanded it back too much and should have left it rougher with more joint compound left behind..... after two pretty thick coats of Duratex with sanding in between, there are a couple spots where it's telegraphing through...  oh well...

at this point, the speakers are decent enough that I'm going to stop on the finish work for now and bring the speakers inside to begin some listening... the gel stain has some urethane in it.... so lacquer coats can wait until later...  they also really need at least another coat or more of Duratex on the top and the front to finish them out evenly (screw the back... it's good enough and no one will see it with where the speakers will sit 99% of the time).... I'll thin down the Duratex with some with water for those last coats and try to limit the orange peel effect...  but for now, it's not raw wood showing... so it gets past the boss's requirements to allow entry into the house... if I like the speaker enough to keep the boxes, I'll worry about final finish work later...

the mounting plates for the CD and horn to bolt to still need to be sanded, stained, etc... I've been focused on the main boxes themselves... but I do need to get to those 1.5" thick boards as I need them to better mount and stabilize the horn/CDs for measurements and listening sessions........maybe tomorrow evening I'll get those done enough that I can finally bring everything inside to start loading drivers and give a first listen....

a couple pics of the boxes now in their current, sort of finished state.....  one includes the spray can I used to paint the driver recesses so you can get an idea of scale..... they're not exactly small boxes.... no two way mini monitors, that's for sure....
« Last Edit: September 14, 2013, 11:09:42 PM by hometheaterdoc »
Shane Sangster
Used to be Night & Day Audio.......

Offline hometheaterdoc

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Re: Big horn experiments - AE TD15M, TD15H, SEOS24, Iwata300, JBL beryllium & BMS
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2013, 06:50:12 AM »
since a quick trip to get a jug of milk turned into a 2+ hour personal shopping trip to the mall and elsewhere just because she felt like it, I took advantage to get equal time and thus spend some time during actual daylight hours to do a bit more work....

- sanded down the Duratex black finish to a 400 grit level which removed a lot of the orange peel effect... it's still definitely there, just not as rough and aggressive... cleaned and buffed out the finish so it's pretty consistent now.... I'm done with the Duratex for a while... final finsh coats if I keep the speakers will be thinned out and sprayed instead of rolling it on and having to repeat the sand and buff steps...
 
- woofer boxes are now inside and pushed into the corners of the recess at the front of the room as much as I can fit them (I under-estimated the measurements when you angle them across the corners with the quad wide Salamander rack in between... it doesn't fit in the 3 foot deep front wall recess area like I expected... whoops! :) hehehe)...  Significant other even commented on how good they look...... until I pointed out that the horns still had to be mounted to the top of them.... things turned sour from there ;)

- the horn/CD 1.5" thick "mounting plates" had all their edges and veneer faces sanded down to 400 grit level.  bottom and top flat surfaces have one coat of gel stain applied... edges have two heavy coats of gel stain applied with sanding in between... I think they'll look fine with enough stain to hide the veneer edges a bit... I decided to skip edge banding them with veneer.... I also skipped doing duratex on the edges and bottom... the stain looks better, imo...

- gotta stop and pick up some additional polyfill insulation today... realized I don't have enough lying around here to properly stuff the boxes..... might get the drivers mounted in the box late tonight if that happens.... gonna listen first before deciding on how much more to brace the box....  starting to feel lazy after that much finish work... too impatient and anxious to just have a listen first and make adjustments later :)  should get another coat of stain on the mounting plate as well this evening... that should be enough for now :)  hoping to make some music in some way, shape or form sometime this week....  looking forward to laying on the sofa and listening... my back is beyond shot again....  way too many narcotics needed to keep me upright enough to get this far.... the final straw was trying to get the woofer boxes in the house last night... even with a really good furniture mover dolly, I tweaked things pretty good and am seriously paying for it today :(  hopefully it will all be worth it when I start listening :)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 08:28:58 AM by hometheaterdoc »
Shane Sangster
Used to be Night & Day Audio.......

Offline BobM

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Re: Big horn experiments - AE TD15M, TD15H, SEOS24, Iwata300, JBL beryllium & BMS
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2013, 08:55:53 AM »
Those aren't horns!

This here's a horn ...

Laugh and the world laughs with you. Cry and you'll have to blow your nose.

Offline hometheaterdoc

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Re: Big horn experiments - AE TD15M, TD15H, SEOS24, Iwata300, JBL beryllium & BMS
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2013, 04:35:34 AM »
woofer boxes half a$$ed stuffed and woofers wired and mounted (just dacron polyfill stuffing for now... I'll do more elaborate wall dampening methods after first listening to them untreated to see what I have to do and what i can get away with not doing... I must admit that one positive aspect of a screwed up back and the time constraints for audio stuff that family life places on it is that it is helping to curb my desire to completely overdo everything... some modicum of control has entered my life if for no other reason than I just don't have time, or the physical capability to go as nuts anymore unless I need to force myself to in response to something annoying me enough to expend the effort... a few years ago there is no way I would have ever listened to these without fully treating the speaker walls first).

there wasn't enough birch plywood left from the initial batch Rich used to build the speaker boxes to make a second set of "mounting plates" for the CDs/horns/jbl 2509a mounts.  So I am also half a$$ing the attachment of the CDs/horns for right now to do listening tests.  As you can see in the photos below, I've embarrassingly just strapped the JBL 2509a mount to the mounting plate rather than drill a bunch of holes to permanently attach it.... whichever CD/horn combo "wins" will get permanent holes drilled in this set of mounting plates.  If i like both horns, I'll buy another sheet of the birch plywood and have Rich cut me another set of plates... then I'll spend the hours sanding, staining, etc.  but for now, money stays in pocket and I'm not spending any more time doing finishing work on another set of plates.

The same "wait and see" approach is being applied to AE woofer phase plugs.  I've got a local anodizing facility that that will strip the clear anodize off the plugs and then re-anodize all the AE phase plugs I have here in black anodize for a small set fee.... if I decide to keep any combo of speakers that use the AE woofers, I'll get the anodizing done... until then, I'll keep the money in my pocket and have to stare at the silver plugs......

I was going to start with SEOS 24 and the BMS 4595ND CD as the first combo to take measurements and work up a rough crossover.... but I think I'll start with Iwata-300 horn and JBL 2446 with beryllium replacement diaphragms... that's the one that some local folks have indicated they are curious to hear....

hopefully at some point this weekend I'll slap a simple crossover together and give an initial listen.... everything will need break-in and optimizing before making any judgements.... which should be interesting on the break-in front as it's going to require playing as some stupid levels to get physical break-in to occur on these high efficiency woofers and the beryllium CDs....

I purposely mounted the CD and horn to the JBL 2509a mount in this manner to center balance the weight as much as possible... I like the look from the side with it mounted the other way, but it's extremely tipsy that way.  this way it almost stands perfectly on its own, just needs the strap as a little helper, and allows me to push it very far forward and have the horn overhang the front face a lot to physically align the drivers better for a more simplistic passive crossover (at least that is the hope and goal)....

anyways, enough rambling..... my back is totally trashed after working on these last night.... I took a ton of medication in hopes I could move today... it was a rough, painful night and it looks like lots of meds are going to be needed for the next few days and I'm going to be flat on my back for a bit....these things better sound good for all the pain I put myself through assembling them :) :(....

I will say, I'm very happy with the look of the speakers so far.... even the wife has commented a couple times how much she like the look...  it's a pretty simple construction concept that allows for assembly to be less than perfect (if you're willing to spend the time with a palm sander and gritty sand paper) and still end up with a speaker that looks far more high end finish wise than it has any right to.... but it certainly was helped along by the skills of Rich to start from a good point of construction that limited the amount of sanding I had to do :).  I'm not sure if I was building the boxes from scratch in my garage that they would be as straight as they were when they arrived to me.  Thanks again Rich for working with me on the concept!


« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 04:40:08 AM by hometheaterdoc »
Shane Sangster
Used to be Night & Day Audio.......