AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Speakers => Topic started by: chrisa on September 21, 2009, 09:34:47 AM
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The other day I tried a tweak which drove me to another tweak and a discovery.
I followed the thread on AudioAsylum where some folks were getting benefit from wrapping teflon thread tape around the prongs of their AC cables. I tried it and it definitely changed things. It darkened the balance a bit, but it also closed down much of the image which had always extended well beyond the speakers in my room.
In messing with it trying to recover the imaging (and before reversing the change I'd made), I tried something new, increasing speaker toe-in to cross in front of the listening position. I was rather amazed that immediately the imaging was back, but instruments and their general "density" increased beyond what I had before. I'm very pleased, but I'll need to spin a few more discs before I think I understand it fully.
Anyone else tried this?
Chris
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I've done this more than once. The effect is very room and speaker dependent and how far away you sit.
It does tend to lock your head in a sweet spot vice I found, and when you shift left or right, the images jump as well. I usually take a cd with a well recorded voice; neither too close miked or too distant, to determine the toe-in. When the voice stays put and I have a wide-ish sweet spot, I leave it.
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Chris, do you cover the prong with teflon, and then it gets pushed back by the socket contacts? Thin teflon will insulate 120VAC so I assume it is being pushed away or you are wrapping it in some way that is not clear.
Thanks
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I wrapped 3-4 turns around the base of each prong and pushed it back, partly with my fingernail and partly with the insertion action. The prongs still make good electrical contact with the outlet. The idea is to reduce resonance at this point. Check out the post on AA for additional guidance and other audiophile's experience. Mine mirrors the others that I read, except for the affect on the soundstage.
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Link?
Thanks
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I wonder if a dab of hot glue would work just as well?
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http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/16/165450.html
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HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Tape on the ol contacts eh. I'm game. When I made powercords for a while we would stuff the interior of the plug with wool or mortite, now Epoxy. We will take this a step further and cover the pins inside the plug. Yes I have too much time on my hands and a Doctorate in Nervosa. Admit it you do as well. :rofl:
charles
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The name of this site not withstanding, I typically think of Nervosa as a bad thing that I try hard to avoid, but I guess there can be good Nervosa in moderation.
I am quite tuned to my system and since taping the prongs my system also sounds a bit veiled. The only time I had noticed this in the past was when connected to a borrowed Blue Circle Music Ring power conditioner. I suspected at the time that I was hearing the impact of (or lack of) artificial frequency extension and ambience from noise, and this adds more evidence.
I think I'm understanding too that getting true extension and openness (minus the noise) is probably fairly difficult to achieve.
After listening more last night to the agressive toe-in, I still like it, though it does sound different. Also like Shep said small movements in the position of my ears make a large difference to the image. Cool stuff.
Chris
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Hey Chris the extreme toe in goes with nearfield listening. The ol equilateral triangle thing. Try the speakers about 5 to 6 feet apart and radically toe in the speakers so that they cross 3 feet in front of you. My speakers [ Pipedreams] were designed to be set up that way. Unfortunately for me the desired distance to the rear wall required for proper setup cannot be achieved in my room. They need at least 10 to 15 feet. So for me it did not work.
The speakers are 6 feet apart 7 feet from rear wall with 8 feet to the side walls. I sit about 9 feet away. The speakers are toed in about 30 degrees. So far so good. Have fun.
charles
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How do you get the exact same toe in from each speaker? Some people use a tape measure from the back and side wall. I've found an easier way, once the speakers are positioned, I use a pointer laser and follow the beam to the back wall or the listening position. Just look for the dot. My laser has a flat bottom so I just hold against the outside edge of the speaker and aim. Easy with the B&W 's only the top head moves on a swivel, the bass cabinet points strait ahead. Try it, Its dead on accuracy.
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Interesting you mention the laser.
I've thought about building my speakers with a small hole in them that one of those cheap $5 lasers would fit into. That way I could have true laser, pin-point accuracy with speaker alignment.
It's a sickness I tell you. Jezz..... :duh
Bob
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I laser align frequently to hear various amounts/types of toe.
The first thing I do is find the ceter of the room.. not as easy as it sounds if you want to get it to within a millimeter. 'Right about here' does't cut it. Then I have to line up the primary listening position into that spot... and center that to the room... using a dummy head/stick/etc. Once that's done you have a place to point lasers.
If your speakers are perfect boxes, you are in good shape since you could then secure lasers to the inside and outside edges... but even then, how would you know how far away each speaker was from the focusing spot? You could get the angles right but not the distance.
Since you have now found only 1 spot in your room, you'll still have to find a way to put the speakers in the same plane... I do this by finding a 2nd center spot in the room, between the speakers. I then measure out from the center the same distance from each side... never use the walls... they lie! ;)
If you were to then attach lasers to the edges of a perfect box-shaped speaker, very carefully so that they are all positioned exactly the same, THEN you could achieve a really good alignment.
I do all of this with 1 measuring laser.. I use a combination of speaker placement methods and some of my own to achieve what I like.. I should really write it all down sometime. It's fairly predictable and sounds great which I like.
-C
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My room has a sliding glass door with heavy drapes in the center, on the back wall. so its easy to aim and the B&W802 matrix have a flat side on the midrange and it swivels so very fast and easy
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I should really write it all down sometime. It's fairly predictable and sounds great which I like.
Carl aligned my speakers before my last meet, they sound best ever. I have tried to improve it, but I keep coming back. Nice job! Write down your recipe.
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Boy, you guys got me thinkin' about my speaker placement. Carl, why not bring some of that fancy laser equipment to WV (we don't have that here) :) and help me get mine setup? I will make it worth your while. We do have good food, good beer, good accomodations...... Bring that smart guy Rich too.
I suspect I'm fairly close to optimal- but I wouldn't be surprised if you move my speakers a foot in any direction. And you talk of 1mm increments? Shoot I'm not even close yet.
Rob S.
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We are truly mad! :shock:
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Tannoy recommended this type of placement with their HPD drivers back in the early 80's.
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All of this talk about room centers and measurements and laser alignments is all well and good and may give you a decent starting point, the only practical way to determine the final positions is by ear using trial and error. Placing your speakers to a measured center point in the room would only work if the room was empty or everything else in the room was place symmetrically. However this is never the case. Many of us have listening spaces that are irregular in shape. And even those who have a square or rectangular room have furnature and equipment that make the acoustic properties of one side of the room different that that of the other side. While measurements can give me a good starting place, I always use my ears as the final placement tool. I start of using test tones like the in-phase/out of phase track on the Stereophile test CD to get a closer sense of placement and toe-in angle and then do my final fine tuning with some actual music form a well recorded source that provides good spacial imaging cues. Moving a speaker as little as 1/4 inch can have a dramatic effect on the sound. When I am done it is not the least bit unusual if the speakers not the same distance from the center line of the room or even the same distance from the listening position.While the distance away from the measured centers may only be inches or even fractions of an inch, the point is that the small postion changes can make a huge difference and we should always remember that we don't listen with rulers and lasers, we listen with our ears, so they are the best tools for optimizing our speaker placements.
Tom
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Hey Tom, great point and good advice. Listen with your ears! :)
Keep in mind some people really do have completely symetrical rooms and furniture... which has also been measured to be within 1/4" of center... and all room acoustics are done in a specific way to accomodate the symetry... just sayin'. ;)
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All depends on your particular level of anal retentivity. :lol:
Bob
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Carlman,
That is a really amazing situation to be able to design in total symmetry from both a room design and a furnishing standpoint. But, most of us have to work around asymmetrical acoustics as even those of us who are lucky enough to have a dedicated audio room got it by taking over an existing space, which was not designed with acoustic symmetry as its top priority. So for the vast majority of us who have to deal with things like less than acoustically perfect room layouts and interior decorating by our wives (marital harmony is almost as important as musical harmony if we are to stay with this hobby over the long run), using your ears is still the best way to compensated for these issues. Using the measurements is a great place to start from, but the measurements and calculations would end up being ridiculously complex if they had to take in all of the acoustic imperfections that most of us have to deal with and try to compensate for. As always, the ears should be the final authority
Tom
PS - The guy with the perfect room must either be single or have an absolute saint for a wife!! :)
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All of this talk about room centers and measurements and laser alignments is all well and good and may give you a decent starting point, the only practical way to determine the final positions is by ear using trial and error. Placing your speakers to a measured center point in the room would only work if the room was empty or everything else in the room was place symmetrically. However this is never the case. Many of us have listening spaces that are irregular in shape. And even those who have a square or rectangular room have furnature and equipment that make the acoustic properties of one side of the room different that that of the other side. While measurements can give me a good starting place, I always use my ears as the final placement tool. I start of using test tones like the in-phase/out of phase track on the Stereophile test CD to get a closer sense of placement and toe-in angle and then do my final fine tuning with some actual music form a well recorded source that provides good spacial imaging cues. Moving a speaker as little as 1/4 inch can have a dramatic effect on the sound. When I am done it is not the least bit unusual if the speakers not the same distance from the center line of the room or even the same distance from the listening position.While the distance away from the measured centers may only be inches or even fractions of an inch, the point is that the small postion changes can make a huge difference and we should always remember that we don't listen with rulers and lasers, we listen with our ears, so they are the best tools for optimizing our speaker placements.
Tom
Tom, The laser and measurements are the starting point. Either rule of thirds, the Cardas method , whatever. when all is said and done the old Sheffield test record where one can use the out of phase test to perfectly position your speakers. Adjust the position or toe in of one speaker only until the out of phasesignal sounds like its coming from ALL AROUND the ROOM. The best method I've ever used after positioning my speakers. Have fun trying.
charles
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PS - The guy with the perfect room must either be single or have an absolute saint for a wife!! :)
Well, Carl's wife, Christine, is Catholic.... :D
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PS - The guy with the perfect room must either be single or have an absolute saint for a wife!! :)
Well, Carl's wife, Christine, is Catholic.... :D
A very supportive and saintly wife she is, but then, Carl has been banished to the basement where he and his perfect room reside. On the other hand, that may just be part of what makes it perfect! :thumb:
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Oh, it's not all bad being 'banished'... ;) I'm pretty happy to be here... it's taken a long time and a lot of 'nervosa' to get what I have. I'm thinking of having another G2G just to spin music.. vinyl or cd and have fun before Christmas is upon us.. Probably the weekend of the Dec 12/13th.. just thinking.
I wish I could get to see Rob S. sometime this year.. but it just may not be possible... which is truly regrettable.. but I will get up there.. and I'll bring my laser! ;)
-C
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The entire point of crossing the axes at or slightly in front of the central listener is to reduce the "head in a vice" requirement for reasonable stereo effect. Any other typical arrangement creates a situation where, when the head (or the entire listener) is moved laterally the image immediately shifts towards the near side.
By "typical arrangement", I mean where the axes of the speakers fall somewhere between slightly behind the center listener's head through straight ahead to slightly toed out.
The thinking is that, as you move your head laterally towards one speaker and away from the far one, you are moving progressively off the axis of the near one as you move closer to it - the lowered level balancing the earlier sound arrival and to an extent canceling the "precedence effect". Conversely, of course, as you move in the same direction the idea is that you move onto the axis of the farther speaker, compensating for the increasing distance.
Naturally, this only works with directional speakers, so speakers possessing controlled directivity, such as Dr Geddes' Abbeys, Duke LeJeune's Audio Kinesis, Bob Smith's Timepieces and others with waveguides limiting the dispersion at the bottom end of the passband of the mid and HF drivers to match the disperison characteristics of the driver next lower in frequency, work best.
As usual, it's a juggling of trade-offs.
Adjustment of arrangement most easily made with correlated mono signal - pink noise is good, but any mono music signal will do. Adjust for tightest phantom image.
miniminim
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I agree, minimum... I've experienced this in my room:
I have mine toed in front of the 2nd row and behind the front row so I can get both effects. I tend to like the front row best but occasionally it's nice to hear things on the 2nd row.. just different presentations. I think the front row more accurately reproduces the image produced by the engineers.. but the 2nd row tends to make the imaging more like what I think it should be..
The detail and tone on front row is a little more 'present' to me on first row so that's where I usually sit. I am an imaging fanatic so I love it when the recording has it done right.
-C
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I've settled on crossing just behind my head from "the" chair (room/setup ala Cardas), but frankly do most of my listening from the office chair that is about 5 feet behind so I've got roughly the same options as Carl.
But with large single driver speakers (and no silly whizzers) my issues are high frequency beaming, not what happens at a given crossover frequency.
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" All depends on your particular level of anal retentivity." That says it all. Quite frankly speaker placement is a super suck pain in the A. I hate it but there's no way round. A lot depends on the design of the speakers; how tolerant they are of the room. I'm lucky to have slim TL's that do excite room boundaries but even so it's a real problem to find the exact distances. I think this is several orders of magnitude more maddening than comparing cables. I'm glad no one can see me at one in the AM, bounding up from the sofa to move speakers a centimeter: the mixture of manic and despair, only to be repeated with the next cd. I think this is a good clinical definition of madness.
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Madness is "putting your head in a vice" and calling it an enjoyable past time. :roll:
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They say obsession is characterized by the re-doubling of effort after the initial goal is forgotten.
If that goal was the enjoyment of good music, then much is madness in the audiophile world.
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They say obsession is characterized by the re-doubling of effort after the initial goal is forgotten.
If that goal was the enjoyment of good music, then much is madness in the audiophile world.
Absofuckinglutely :clap:
My fantasy is a motorized dolly under each speaker, connected to PC, running software that sends test signal to stereo, receives acoustic response by microphone, sends instructions for the dolly to move, repeat ad infinitum or until the bell rings, "ding ding ding - your speakers are placed, thank you." It gradually hones in to perfect location and toe for any speaker in any room. Purists might wonder, "what fun is that?" but I think it would be fun as hell to watch that thing struggle while I snicker and sip my beverage. As long as it really works.
Meantime, still happy with Carl's setup of my speaks. Toe: Inside edges pointed right at me. Ears and tweets in an equal triangle. I did move the seat in about a foot closer tho'
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My fantasy is the same, but with microphones instead of speakers.
My solution is to manually place microphones, but with a long headphone extension, a pair of -30dB shooter's earmuffs and a pair of Etymotic Research ER4S earphones. Gives about 55dB+ ambient attenuation.
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My fantasy is a motorized dolly under each speaker, connected to PC, running software that sends test signal to stereo, receives acoustic response by microphone, sends instructions for the dolly to move, repeat ad infinitum or until the bell rings, "ding ding ding - your speakers are placed, thank you." It gradually hones in to perfect location and toe for any speaker in any room. Purists might wonder, "what fun is that?" but I think it would be fun as hell to watch that thing struggle while I snicker and sip my beverage. As long as it really works.
Rich:
With the monsters you have to move I could only imagine how a motorized, robot dolly would make you a very happy audiophile! :rofl: Hell, I can only imagine what a major undertaking it is just to move those babies a fraction of an inch!
Ken
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It's great to hear you're happy with that positioning, Rich. Getting a little closer to them probably helps reduce the room reflection/illusion reducing effect. We could set it up more nearfield.. the speakers will need to come in more. Or you could just finish those panels. :) Then you'll get to hear your system for the first time.
-C
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Moving the seat in a little closer helped a lot with the bass response, and fortunately imaging wasn't hurt. I'm finally making progress on the treatments again after a long hiatus on audio projects, and I'm really looking forward to hearing it finished!
Ken, it's not too bad to move them on a slippery carpet with furniture sliders. But after Master Set procedure I was sore the next day.
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Rich, you're a sick man. But I understand.
As a fellow "sicko", and DIY kinda guy, I've thought about using R/C (radio control) technology to position speakers remotely via servoes from the seated position. They'd be placed on a lazy Susan type "table" and controlled from the transmitter in my hands.
That's a Helluva lot of time and effort spent NOT listening to music.....all in the name of improving what the music sounds like when I do (finally) have a chance to listen to it. :duh
Dammit man.
Bob
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Cool idea. But you know eventually RC speaker races would break out in your theater.
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HA HA :rofl:
Yea, that's true. But that's why I have to show some restraint and only allow them to swivel, and maybe tilt a few degrees.
Bob
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Your not listening boys. That Sheffield Disc is the ticket for the final tuning. The simplicity of of hearing the sound all around you is the key. Works everytime .
Rich I'll burn you a copy to spread around. I believe I still have your address. Proof is in the pudding.
charles
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Rollo said... (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=1642.msg17791#msg17791) Don't worry, we're listening... ;)
But the magic disk doesn't move the heavy beasts for ya, it just rubs it in how wrong they are! haha
Will your Sheffield phase trick work in a non-symmetric room shape? I have no right wall. :(
Is this the disk you mean Charles?
http://www.amazon.com/Sheffield-Coustic-Set-Up-Test-Disc/dp/B00000J7TU/ref=pd_rhf_p_t_4
or one of these:
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_700CDSET/Autosound-2000-CD-Set.html?search=test+CD&ssi=0
A little off topic, but another magic test disk... Henry (bmr3hc) was telling me about his new Ayre break in disk a couple days ago with glowing testimony.
http://www.ayre.com/accessories.cfm?accessID=1
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Rollo said... (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=1642.msg17791#msg17791) Don't worry, we're listening... ;)
But the magic disk doesn't move the heavy beasts for ya, it just rubs it in how wrong they are! haha
Will your Sheffield phase trick work in a non-symmetric room shape? I have no right wall. :(
Is this the disk you mean Charles?
http://www.amazon.com/Sheffield-Coustic-Set-Up-Test-Disc/dp/B00000J7TU/ref=pd_rhf_p_t_4
or one of these:
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_700CDSET/Autosound-2000-CD-Set.html?search=test+CD&ssi=0
A little off topic, but another magic test disk... Henry (bmr3hc) was telling me about his new Ayre break in disk a couple days ago with glowing testimony.
http://www.ayre.com/accessories.cfm?accessID=1
Yes Rich works in any room. When you achieve getting the sound to be equally all around the room compared to the mono signal its quite easy. You then adjust the speaker on the side the signal is favoring. Adjust toe in and move speaker incrementally sideways ,back and forth until you hear it all around the room.
Truly a no brainer and easy to do with the wife or a buddy. That disc cover does not look familiar, maybe a reissue not sure.
charles
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Cool 8)
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Is it really important which out of phase pink noise generator you use to implement that placement method? I mean, any noise you can generate can be made out of phase at the speakers.
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Rich
Let me (us) know what you think of the Sheffield setup disc, when it arrives from Rollo. I will likely want to try it for my set up as well after I move next week.
I do plan to post some comments on the Ayre system enhancement CD that I got from a friend called, "Irrational But Efficacious". Done in collaboration with Cardas. Very effective for equipment break-in and "demagnetizing" your system for better sound.
Henry
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Rich
Let me (us) know what you think of the Sheffield setup disc, when it arrives from Rollo. I will likely want to try it for my set up as well after I move next week.
I do plan to post some comments on the Ayre system enhancement CD that I got from a friend called, "Irrational But Efficacious". Done in collaboration with Cardas. Very effective for equipment break-in and "demagnetizing" your system for better sound.
Henry
Have that disc as well. Really good break in tool. Demags quite well to boot. The Gryphon has a better effect but costs a bit more. For phono the ol Fluxbuster is still going strong.
I'll get out the discs as soon as I can.
charles
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Truly a no brainer and easy to do with the wife or a buddy.
Is it really important which out of phase pink noise generator you use to implement that placement method? I mean, any noise you can generate can be made out of phase at the speakers.
Hey Carl, you're gonna be my speaker sliding "buddy," so you need to improve your attitude about the magic speaker tweaking CD. ;)
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I will likely want to try it for my set up as well after I move next week.
Where you movin' chum? New man cave in store?
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I will likely want to try it for my set up as well after I move next week.
Where you moving' chum? New man cave in store?
Rich, I sent you a PM. As to the new man cave, lets just say the wife put her foot down on my having the master BR as the listening room! The family room too cut up with openings to work as well as the mbr. The other two BR too small. Guess I will be doing a lot of toe-in adjustments. But at least I will still have my toes and my wife.
Henry
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Guess I will be doing a lot of toe-in adjustments. But at least I will still have my toes and my wife.
Henry:
Trust me when I write that I understand your comment. :duh My wife does not share my appreciation of this hobby! I think I have pushed her to the limit lately and I have to cool it for awhile! :roll: Good luck with the toe adjustments.
Ken
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I think we are all in the same boat. According to my wife this isn't a hobby, it's a sickness :duh
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I think we are all in the same boat. According to my wife this isn't a hobby, it's a sickness :duh
Yip..... :roll:...... We should all be members of "AA".....Audiophiles Anonymous.
Bob
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It's never too soon...or too late
" I admit I am powerless over Audio and it has made my life unmanageable " :shock:
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You too?
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Truly a no brainer and easy to do with the wife or a buddy.
Is it really important which out of phase pink noise generator you use to implement that placement method? I mean, any noise you can generate can be made out of phase at the speakers.
Hey Carl, you're gonna be my speaker sliding "buddy," so you need to improve your attitude about the magic speaker tweaking CD. ;)
The advantage of the out of phase track is that a real person is talking. We have found that much easier to discern as opposed to just pink noise. No MAGIC just believe its very affective and easy.
charles
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You too?
Unquestionably.
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And dam proud of it :thumb:
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Rollo said... (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=1642.msg17791#msg17791) Don't worry, we're listening... ;)
But the magic disk doesn't move the heavy beasts for ya, it just rubs it in how wrong they are! haha
Will your Sheffield phase trick work in a non-symmetric room shape? I have no right wall. :(
Is this the disk you mean Charles?
http://www.amazon.com/Sheffield-Coustic-Set-Up-Test-Disc/dp/B00000J7TU/ref=pd_rhf_p_t_4
or one of these:
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_700CDSET/Autosound-2000-CD-Set.html?search=test+CD&ssi=0
A little off topic, but another magic test disk... Henry (bmr3hc) was telling me about his new Ayre break in disk a couple days ago with glowing testimony.
http://www.ayre.com/accessories.cfm?accessID=1
Rollo said... (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=1642.msg17791#msg17791) Don't worry, we're listening... ;)
But the magic disk doesn't move the heavy beasts for ya, it just rubs it in how wrong they are! haha
Will your Sheffield phase trick work in a non-symmetric room shape? I have no right wall. :(
Is this the disk you mean Charles?
http://www.amazon.com/Sheffield-Coustic-Set-Up-Test-Disc/dp/B00000J7TU/ref=pd_rhf_p_t_4
or one of these:
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_700CDSET/Autosound-2000-CD-Set.html?search=test+CD&ssi=0
A little off topic, but another magic test disk... Henry (bmr3hc) was telling me about his new Ayre break in disk a couple days ago with glowing testimony.
http://www.ayre.com/accessories.cfm?accessID=1
Yes Rich works in any room. When you achieve getting the sound to be equally all around the room compared to the mono signal its quite easy. You then adjust the speaker on the side the signal is favoring. Adjust toe in and move speaker incrementally sideways ,back and forth until you hear it all around the room.
Truly a no brainer and easy to do with the wife or a buddy. That disc cover does not look familiar, maybe a reissue not sure.
charles
Whoa!!! That Sheffield disc is pricey!!!
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I don't know how many of you "Nervosians" have seen/heard anything on a specialized speaker placement set-up devised by Sumiko, called "The Master Set" (and no, I didn't compare who posted on this thread against the one below to document it) but I'd like to know if it relates in any way to using the Scheffield disk that Rollo recommends.
AudioNervosa link:
http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=1928.0 (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=1928.0[color=blue)
Audiocircle link 1:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64321 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64321[color=blue)
Audiocircle link 2:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65908.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65908.0[color=blue)
Audiogon Forum link:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?rspkr&1197744079 (http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?rspkr&1197744079)
The Master Set method sounds very complicated vs. using the Scheffield disk... Comments?
Thanks!
SN
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Links fixed... ;)
AudioNervosa link: (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=1928.0)
Audiocircle link 1: (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64321)
Audiocircle link 2: (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65908.0)
Audiogon Forum link: (http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?rspkr&1197744079)
I've not yet tried rollo's disk, but Master set has some benefits.
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Thanks, Rich. :thumb:
Sorry for the "techno-screwup" on my part! :duh
SN
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I spent probably 4+ hours with Master Set and I "think" I improved things, but I also discovered that attempting to find that sweet spot with the first speaker while the 2nd is still against the wall is... challenging/frustrating/annoying/eye-opening.
I never did find an ideal spot that I felt was substantially better and I never did get the speakers placed such that the soundstage held regardless of where I sat in the room. But I do think I have a bigger, deeper soundstage with better defined bass. I think... :roll:
It's a learning process and likely a very good one, but it takes a lot of patience (on both my part and that of anyone else in the house ;-)
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It's a learning process and likely a very good one, but it takes a lot of patience (on both my part and that of anyone else in the house ;-)
The horse song is maddening! Glad you were able to get some learning from it.
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The only thing I've found the master set useful for is learning how speaker placement impacts bass. It also taught me I don't have the patience to work so hard on something I don't really believe in. I sort-of got it but in the end I thought it was a good start, rather than a complete method.
Rich spent many hours more than me and got a bit more out of it but I still don't think it has repeatable and predictable results that are inline with what is claimed (imaging everywhere, no compromises in bass). If you tinker with anything long enough, you'll eventually get what you want.. But the purpose of a method is to get there quicker. I didn't think the Master Set did that. But then, if the master set is a free sharing, learning experience, then it has done its job.. got people thinking and experimenting.
I will write a new speaker placement method either on my own or with Rich in 2010. I'll tweak it and get others to try it. Then of course, sell it! ;) There is no such thing as no compromises. However, the method I use can balance the sound in whatever direction you prefer and you can alter the balance predictably.. (moving speakers in a direction adds bass in certain frequencies, diminishes soundstage depth or width, etc.) So it has compromises but you choose them.
In any case, toe angle is extremely important.. just like on car suspension. ;)
-C
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The Wilson Audio set-up Procedure (WASP) seems based on a similar principle to Master Set ...
http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/waspe.html
It still depends upon your ears to discern changes in low bass within the room but also employs some fundamental math in the speaker to listener ratio and angles.
Fundamentally, it strikes me that there ought to be a way to quantify how this is done through some fairly simple measurements. Carl - can't wait to see what you and Rich come up with! :thumb: