AudioNervosa

Systemic Development => Analog Devices => Topic started by: James Edward on February 19, 2020, 01:31:56 PM

Title: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: James Edward on February 19, 2020, 01:31:56 PM
Anyone care to take a stab at what causes surface noise on LP's? Do you feel you can visually assess whether a record will be noisy or not?
Possible causes:

A lot of play
Dirty, from paper record liner dust
Dirty, from dirty fingers
Dirty, from airborne dust
Scratches- these should be easiest to detect, but not fix
Smoking environment
Pet hair
Do some styli accentuate noise- if so, what styli types attenuate said noise...

I ask this because a new Nervosa of buying used records has reared its ugly head. I'm going to add to this but I'm afraid my post will time out before I submit it.

Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: James Edward on February 19, 2020, 01:39:19 PM
I just picked up a couple of Pablo label jazz records on recommendation of a fellow member. They appeared super clean; no scuffing, scratches, or even dust on the surface. I put one on, and the noise was very apparent. The music above(below?) the noise sounds magnificent. Transients are sharp, instruments sound great, etc., etc.
So I cleaned the record with an old tried and true method- new sponge, tepid water, and some Dawn.
Surface noise still there, though the music seems slightly 'brighter', so it's something other than dirt, dust, or other physical matter.
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: James Edward on February 19, 2020, 02:16:12 PM
As I think, I could perpetuate this thread all by myself... I guess static electricity could play a part too. Along with quality of the vinyl used- some of these records may have been doomed from the start. A horrible thought, but maybe.
I just put on another record I bought yesterday, and the background is much quieter. Not perfect, but it was 99 cents.
It looks to have been pressed in 1963, by Atlantic Records.
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: S Clark on February 19, 2020, 03:11:52 PM
Pablo pressings are usually pretty quiet.  Most were pressed after the horrible recycled vinyl years of the 70's, so I suspect they are just dirty.  Now your old Atlantic pressing from 1963 is likely to be mono, and if so, was cut to be played with a mono cartridge.  Mono is much quieter when played with the correct cart.
So the first question, how are you cleaning your records? Sponge and soapy tap water?  If so, that's the first issue. You won't get much out of the groove with a sponge, and if you aren't using distilled or de-ionized are likely adding minerals.
Is the Atlantic mono?  If you can't see "stereo" stated, it probably is. 
It's possible that the records are just worn out.  It happens, not often, but it can be exactly what you're describing.
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: Folsom on February 19, 2020, 03:31:39 PM
Has your cart and VTA been setup? The wrong setup on that stuff will make noise much worse.
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: Nick B on February 19, 2020, 06:23:05 PM
As I think, I could perpetuate this thread all by myself... I guess static electricity could play a part too. Along with quality of the vinyl used- some of these records may have been doomed from the start. A horrible thought, but maybe.
I just put on another record I bought yesterday, and the background is much quieter. Not perfect, but it was 99 cents.
It looks to have been pressed in 1963, by Atlantic Records.

Jim,
As Scott mentioned, I don’t believe the sponge method would get much dirt out of those grooves. Maybe a magic eraser sponge or a microfiber cloth might. That would be an interesting experiment. I’ve read a number of reviews over the years that discussed the relationship between noise and stylus shape.
Nick
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: S Clark on February 19, 2020, 08:08:22 PM
Ticks and pops caused me to be an early adopter of cd's in the early '80s, but when I picked up a cheapy KAB vacuum cleaner, I swung back to vinyl.  And when I built an ultra sonic cleaner, I really began to hear what records could do. 
The answer is get a cleaning system.  It's going to cost anywhere from $150 to $500 bucks to do it well, but it's the real way to improve your vinyl experience. 
If you aren't handy enough to build your own, then I can't recommend enough one of the ultrasonic units that Rollo sells.  They are truly the ultimate in getting records as noiseless as possible. 
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: James Edward on February 20, 2020, 07:52:07 AM
I am trying one more thing, as the suggestions make sense.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/4-in-Flat-Chip-Brush-1500-4/202023923
It should get into the grooves, and the bristles are on the soft side. Worth a shot...
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: rollo on February 20, 2020, 08:50:40 AM
  Jim welcome to the world of vinyl. If you desire to buy used instead of new you will need a LP cleaning machine. I reco the Kirmuss Ultra Sonic cleaner.
  Even some new LPs require a cleaning. At $30 to $40 a pop should not be however is. As Folsom mentioned VTA and setup can exaggerate noise issues.
  Pete or Joe in our club have the proper tools.

charles
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: rollo on February 20, 2020, 08:55:06 AM
I am trying one more thing, as the suggestions make sense.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/4-in-Flat-Chip-Brush-1500-4/202023923
It should get into the grooves, and the bristles are on the soft side. Worth a shot...

  Jim, just buy the Mapleshade brush with ground. A killer product. I believe $35


charles
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: James Edward on February 20, 2020, 09:12:18 AM
I was trying that 4" brush to wet clean the records. I'll check out the Mapleshade. Thanks CR
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: jimbones on February 20, 2020, 09:13:10 AM
Lot of great suggestions. I used to have a decent amount of surface noise but then when I got a new cartridge with a different shape stylus the noise level went way down. Mazz installed and aligned the cartridge and Triode Pete brought his Fozgometer and Bob M brought some beer  :rofl: I try to stay away from used records. I believe in quality not quantity and clean clean clean. I built a DIY LP cleaner and gets them squeaky clean. Now its like playing digital in terms of noise level.
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: jimbones on February 20, 2020, 09:14:03 AM
I am trying one more thing, as the suggestions make sense.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/4-in-Flat-Chip-Brush-1500-4/202023923
It should get into the grooves, and the bristles are on the soft side. Worth a shot...


NG. When you come over to my place I'll show you the brush to get
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: James Edward on February 20, 2020, 09:47:57 AM
Just so I'm not shunned or excommunicated  :rofl:, and don't want to be known as the Typhoid Tony of records  :oops:, I started this topic to get a little insight into surface noise, and ways to possibly visually detect it before the purchase of used records. The records I have bought up until this fateful day were new and sound just fine... I have always taken very good care of them.
I guess I overreacted because my first three used were noisy. They looked fine to the naked eye, but who knows what lurks beneath the surface.
In reality, I don't have the space or inclination to be rounding up records, so I'll most likely be giving Acoustic Sounds or whoever some business.
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: Barry (NJ) on February 20, 2020, 10:10:07 AM
As stated above, "proper" cleaning, and arm/cartridge set-up, makes a world of difference.
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: S Clark on February 20, 2020, 12:08:38 PM
I am trying one more thing, as the suggestions make sense.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/4-in-Flat-Chip-Brush-1500-4/202023923
It should get into the grooves, and the bristles are on the soft side. Worth a shot...

I've cleaned lots of records using cheap chip brushes and a vacuum.  I like to cut the brush back to about an inch of bristles to make them stiffer.  Then use de-mineralized water and a enough soap to so that you get a good foam as you brush back and forth.  Wipe the foam off, rinse, and brush with only distilled.  At that point I used to vacuum dry them, but I guess you could drip dry.  That should work rather well for nearly no investment. 
And use separate brushes for soap and for rinse. 
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: Folsom on February 20, 2020, 06:08:13 PM
I thought you liked boar hair brushes?
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: S Clark on February 20, 2020, 08:13:09 PM
The ones I use are boar hair.  On sale these are about 50 cents a piece. 
https://www.harborfreight.com/4-in-industrial-grade-chip-brushes-12-pc-61494.html
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: S Clark on February 22, 2020, 03:33:36 PM
YMMV seems to apply here.   I've taken several lp's that I cleaned with a brush, cleaning solution and vacuumed and quickly compared to the same lp further cleaned with an ultrasonic cleaner... to find a significant further removal of noisy pops.  My experience is that even a diligent hand cleaning can only get you part way to a clean surface. 
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: S Clark on February 22, 2020, 05:35:59 PM
Well, send me a copy, I'll clean it and send it back to you.  Of course, I'll have to play it a few times for quality control.
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: tmazz on February 22, 2020, 07:28:57 PM
I also find that treating a record with a steam cleaner can go even further in getting out some stubborn noise.

But of course every once in a while you come across something that is just a poor pressing that no amount of cleaning can quiet down.  :(
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: dBe on February 22, 2020, 10:41:45 PM
Back when I was a vinyl junkie (before I figured out how to make digital my preferred method of playback)I used the Elmer’s glue method to great success on the noisiest pressings.  Just need to make sure the material of the pressing will release the glue.  Old regrind pressings can be iffy.  Virgin vinyl - not a problem.
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: rollo on February 27, 2020, 01:30:41 PM
  Mazz I still have my steamer. I believe Mapleshade sells/sold a kit. That got me interested in buying one. Very affective however my Kirmuss Ultrasonic Baby rules. Money well spent.
  Jim if you want to try the steamer C,mon over and you can have it for free.


charles
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: Nick B on February 27, 2020, 03:29:51 PM
  Mazz I still have my steamer. I believe Mapleshade sells/sold a kit. That got me interested in buying one. Very affective however my Kirmuss Ultrasonic Baby rules. Money well spent.
  Jim if you want to try the steamer C,mon over and you can have it for free.


charles

Charles, I remember seeing a few videos with the Kirmuss designer. Nice guy and quite the vinyl enthusiast. I very much like the idea of ultrasonic cleaning. I think it would be much better than my Nitty Gritty. I think that Kirmuss goes for $800. Not sure what’s on eBay nowadays as to kits.
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: S Clark on February 27, 2020, 04:36:55 PM
I built my ultrasonic for about $150.  I already had a Nitty Gritty unit that had served me well for many years, but there's nothing that comes close to ultrasonic... followed by a vacuum drying. 
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: Nick B on February 27, 2020, 06:49:10 PM
I built my ultrasonic for about $150.  I already had a Nitty Gritty unit that had served me well for many years, but there's nothing that comes close to ultrasonic... followed by a vacuum drying.

How do you vacuum them?

Here’s a link to an 8 minute video about the Kirmuss. A bit of a tedious process, but the results are likely excellent as Charles says.
https://youtu.be/G0Q8MNpmGoc
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: rollo on March 05, 2020, 12:56:13 PM
  Results are superb. However my quietest music is Digital.


charles
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: S Clark on March 05, 2020, 01:11:40 PM
I built my ultrasonic for about $150.  I already had a Nitty Gritty unit that had served me well for many years, but there's nothing that comes close to ultrasonic... followed by a vacuum drying.

How do you vacuum them?
Just take them from the ultrasonic bath directly to the Nitty Gritty for a vacuum dry.  No waiting around, no putting them in a rack, just put them in a new sleeve.  I don't change fluids until after 15-30 cleanings, so I don't like to leave the fluid on the record to air dry. 
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: Nick B on March 05, 2020, 04:48:10 PM
I built my ultrasonic for about $150.  I already had a Nitty Gritty unit that had served me well for many years, but there's nothing that comes close to ultrasonic... followed by a vacuum drying.

How do you vacuum them?
Just take them from the ultrasonic bath directly to the Nitty Gritty for a vacuum dry.  No waiting around, no putting them in a rack, just put them in a new sleeve.  I don't change fluids until after 15-30 cleanings, so I don't like to leave the fluid on the record to air dry.

Thanks, Scott.
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: jimbones on March 06, 2020, 06:39:05 AM
James Edward and I had a extensive Vinyl session last week at my place and the vinyl was almost as quiet as digital. But then again I am very selective of what I purchase. Not a  lot of used stuff, mostly newer pressings. I think a lot has to do with stylus shape and record pressing. As TMazz says some LP's are better than others.
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: rollo on March 06, 2020, 07:17:28 AM
   "Almost" only counts in Darts and Bowling  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:.


charles
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: S Clark on March 06, 2020, 07:55:17 AM
   "Almost" only counts in Darts and Bowling  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:.


charles
Not sure I agree with this, Charles.  Although lack of noise is important, it's not the only thing in sound quality.
It may be mood dependent, or maybe it's individual records, but sometimes a bit of noise just doesn't bother me.  Now, lots of noise, that's hard to overlook.
Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: jimbones on March 06, 2020, 10:12:48 AM
   "Almost" only counts in Darts and Bowling  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:.


charles
Not sure I agree with this, Charles.  Although lack of noise is important, it's not the only thing in sound quality.
It may be mood dependent, or maybe it's individual records, but sometimes a bit of noise just doesn't bother me.  Now, lots of noise, that's hard to overlook.

Totally Agree S Clark. On most LP's my system is dead nuts quiet. A few have some surface noise and it is tolerable. If there is a lot of surface noise that I cant tolerate I go digital.

I don't have a preferred format. If it sounds good i like it. I stream, CD, Files, LP Saul Goodman!!

Title: Re: Surface Noise Origins
Post by: James Edward on March 06, 2020, 02:34:39 PM
Yes, I can attest that jimbones' system certainly has minimal surface noise. I know that it's virtually impossible to completely eliminate; it's the nature of the beast. But when we listened to my new copy of 'Ultimate Sinatra' on vinyl, "holy shit" popped out of my mouth.
On used records, my thoughts lean toward stylus shape; maybe the shape is touching badly worn places on the record. Conversely, if your stylus is touching virgin vinyl in the grooves, untouched by previous styli, all is right with the world. I don't know...
Forgetting all that, jimbones wife served up an excellent small pizza. It magically appeared after a number of hunger inducing LP's. It was while eating said pizza that we solved all audio conundrums and found the way forward.