AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Speakers => Topic started by: jessearias on July 18, 2016, 11:50:55 AM
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I have heard a lot of speakers including many "Audiophile" grade speakers being called bright sounding.
One would think that in a speaker of audiophile caliber, they would address this issue.
Are they bright sounding because they are too efficient? :?
If you have ever heard a high trumpet player, when they hit those high notes, it sounds high, loud and screechy. :shock: That's the sound being played. Having been around a lot of bands, when some of your higher pitched instruments really get pounded, they can sound bright and even a bit screechy. (to include vocals as well)
Are what we are perceiving as bright sounding just the speaker doing its job? Or can you overdo your job?
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I think they are being designed by, and then sold to, older men. That's where the money resides. For better or worse, this hobby has a modal average age of around 57. I have no statistics to back this up, other than the audio club I belong to.
Another factor is probably that certain designs "test bench" better than others.
I don't profess to really have an opinion one way or the other, but those are my observations.
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the industry seems to go through trends. There was horns and tubes way back when, and most tended to sound very live and shouty.
Then the industry discovered soundstaging and we got speakers that could deliver that and be pulled out from the walls. Smaller profiles began emerging and satellites were born.
Then there was the trend toward satisfying the wife and home designer, and profiles got leaner. The tower speaker was designed with several smaller woofers that tended to sound quicker than the old big 12" bass driver.
Then designers discovered titanium and beryllium for lighter tweeters. Putting that into those quick towers resulted in a top end that could pierce the ear. The era of overly detailed came alive, and that's kind of where we are now, though it seems to have tamed down a bit from a few years ago.
But you are right, the average audiophile is older and his hearing is going. Bright is relative.
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Hi Jess,
Yes, I have heard some bright ones. I think if one does a check of the tweeter's frequency response (FR), one will see some things. Plus other possibilities.
1) Often there is a resonant peak around 6khz, depending upon the driver.
2) I have seen many tweeters, even expensive tweeters, with peaks around 15khz, give or take. Some have multiple peaks between 10khz and 20khz. That is a recipe for problems unless addressed.
3) The "reference" amp/pre/source, or room used to tweak a design may have contributed. For instance, if the amp lacks highs, the speaker will be designed too bright in order to compensate.
I try to test each component, individually, for accuracy in absolute terms. Even then the room will play a part, so I encourage adjustments on the speaker itself.
I have always been in favor of adjustments on each component.
4) I am only guessing here, but some may like the "air" that exaggerated highs would create.
I have heard some recordings, especially older LPs tended to exaggerate the highs a little. I would guess that is because of the inferior cartridge/needles back in those days, thus more wear created. Someone with more experience than me may wish to address if that is true.
Just some thoughts Jess.
Cheers
Steve
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Steve,
I think you bring up a very good point in reference to what equipment (amps, LP, CD, DAC etc.) are used to test the speakers with. We can go on for threads on end as to which equipment is the most neutral and best for testing. But as you point out, the testing equipment used makes a big difference. There is no standard for testing equipment, so everyone will get different results even if testing the same speaker. :(
Testing room dynamics play a huge part as well. I am sure there some standard for testing in anechoic chambers, but how many people test that way? :roll:
Speaker craft is an interesting debate. To many variables to say who is right or wrong. Only the ear can tell. :-P
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Steve,
I think you bring up a very good point in reference to what equipment (amps, LP, CD, DAC etc.) are used to test the speakers with. We can go on for threads on end as to which equipment is the most neutral and best for testing. But as you point out, the testing equipment used makes a big difference. There is no standard for testing equipment, so everyone will get different results even if testing the same speaker. :(
Testing room dynamics play a huge part as well. I am sure there some standard for testing in anechoic chambers, but how many people test that way? :roll:
Speaker craft is an interesting debate. To many variables to say who is right or wrong. Only the ear can tell. :-P
Thanks Jess. I see I forgot to mention a word in point 3 of my post. I meant listening testing, which is the final judge, not measurements. We agree there.
Actually, there is a way to check preamplifier's and amplifier's accuracy via listening testing, but it is very involved and takes a long time.
Cheers
Steve
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If you have ever heard a high trumpet player, when they hit those high notes, it sounds high, loud and screechy. :shock:
Yuk I hate that.
(http://www.spiralvinyl.com/imagelarge.php?id=12346490)
Tenderly - Click it! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wakb1i-m2FY)
Audiophiles like treble, it is written into the DNA. Mfgs know that detail sells. Sonic nicotine. 30 something noobie audiophile DINKs want it like catnip. The newer tweeters and caps have refined and purified the quality of the drug but the hook is still the same, as is the damage it will do to you in the long run. Kick the habit! Friends don't let friends chase detail! Just say no!
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There's detail, and then there's detail. Do you realize that we really only hear primary instrument tones up to about 4k Hz?
(http://onefryshort.org/images/frequency_chart_lg.gif)
Everything over that is harmonics and "air", which is very important to the perception of room ambiance and soundstaging but not fundamentals. What is interesting is that many speakers cross the woofer to the tweeter between 2-3K Hz. That means that your mid/woofer is really the speaker that is reproducing much of what you are hearing from your stereo, not the tweeter.
I know this is an over simplification, but there you have it.
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There's detail, and then there's detail. Do you realize that we really only hear primary instrument tones up to about 4k Hz?
(http://onefryshort.org/images/frequency_chart_lg.gif)
Everything over that is harmonics and "air", which is very important to the perception of room ambiance and soundstaging but not fundamentals. What is interesting is that many speakers cross the woofer to the tweeter between 2-3K Hz. That means that your mid/woofer is really the speaker that is reproducing much of what you are hearing from your stereo, not the tweeter.
I know this is an over simplification, but there you have it.
I got thinking about your post and a couple of thoughts came to mind, springing off your nice comments.
1) Even at 6khz or 1khz xover, both drivers are engaged depending upon the order. Using 2nd order over laps the drivers the most.
2) There is no free lunch without extreme care; using a higher order causes a host of problems. Many more parts, tolerance variations, decreased fidelity since each part has sonic flaws.
Cheers and thanks Bob.
Steve
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Me thinks there are way to many bright sounds. However it is not just the speaker you are hearing. Most of today's sound especially at shows is just BRIGHT.
Good point about age of audiophiles as I have noticed the older guys usually have brighter sounding systems. They play them too loud as well.
charles
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Me thinks there are way to many bright sounds. However it is not just the speaker you are hearing. Most of today's sound especially at shows is just BRIGHT.
Good point about age of audiophiles as I have noticed the older guys usually have brighter sounding systems. They play them too loud as well.
charles
How true...bright = irritating. It can be enticing in the short term and intolerable in the long term
Nick