Author Topic: DTQWT-12  (Read 127616 times)

Offline tmazz

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #195 on: November 13, 2011, 02:53:27 PM »
With the different tube amp the midrange issue has gone away. It must be amp related somehow, damping or whatever.

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Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #196 on: November 13, 2011, 04:05:18 PM »
Yes indeed Tom!

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #197 on: November 22, 2011, 03:03:06 PM »
Total Harmonic Distortion per frequency, 2.8V sine at the speaker, about a foot in front of the front drivers. This is very good. Higher voltages of 5.6 and 11.2 made same shape trace and staying under 1% at 11V except for the 900Hz bump. That's LOUD!


Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #198 on: December 15, 2011, 06:23:30 PM »
I had been frustrated with the upper midrange peakiness I was hearing. Flutes, piano and 2nd harmonic overtones of lower barky instruments like baritone, cello, oboe, etc with lots of natural overtones.  I attacked it will all kinds of tests on the midrange driver, but I couldn't find anything wrong at all, except for the sound. It sounded like 2nd harmonic glare around 2-3kHz and it would peak on loud passages. I call it flute stab.  I remember having this problem years ago in here with different speakers.

When the Christmas tree came, I moved the stereo 90 degrees against the side wall. The acoustics are great that way, lower and mid midrange is especially muddy and imaging suffers, it has but much better livability. We can even use the fireplace!

The first night I listened to radio, it sounded good, Ididn't notice the peaks, but the radio is compressed and I wasn't playing loud or listening cricitally. Next night listening to Monk on vinyl I didn't notice any plink and plonk in the upper registers of the piano. I should have been hearing it on Monk if anything. So I start thinking shit, maybe it's my new DAC doing it?

Tonight listening to DAC, I gave the speakers a workout with some of my "big system" tracks. Kalevi Aho Symphonic Dances is loaded with bells and brass, flutes and loudness, modern dissonant harmonies, huge dynamic crescendos with piccolos leading the way. I was surprised to hear the speakers sound much more relaxed and listenable now. So the peaks must have been worse in the other orientation due to the room acoustics. I'm wondering if I am getting slap echo in the space between the walls and the 6" thick ceiling acoustic treatments which have wooden sidewalls. The gap is only about 2-3 feet, but it is very long and goes all around the room. But the wavelength for 2-3 feet is 450-700Hz, too low. I'll have to stick a mic up there and run the sweep, and look for other ways that 3k stuff could form. Maybe it's just too much glass windows, or corner echos?

In a related story...  Yesterday I gave the midrange cones a good fondling. The paper is extremely stiff and the cone is actually a curved wall which prevents bending. There is no give at all in the cone wall. Pressing very hard I was surprised that I couldn't make it bend at all. As the cone goes down into the voice coil, the angle gets much steeper than at the outer edges. This further reduces flex because the steep angle of the cone makes a stronger cone. All this should help reduce cone cry, screaming, breakup distortion, whatever you want to call it. And I couldn't find any evidence of that with measurements. That's good because I want to build some other boxes for these drivers but I was worried a little about the midrange if it was screaming.  Zaph just published his tests of this JA8008 midrange driver on his blog. Passed with flying colors! But those drivers T/S specs look like they aren't broken in yet.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/blog.html
Scroll to December 4, 2012 entry.

I still intend to do some torture test multitone distortion tests on the midrange with ARTA to make sure it is behaving in the upper midrange frequencies. But for now it seems to be mostly gone. But the other acoustic problems of this orientation are a bigger problem, which is why I choose the less feng shui orientation most of the time. Sounds better except for the flutes.

I remember having this problem a few years ago in this room, but it seemed lower in freq. But for some reason it really came back strong with these speakers in that orientation. A sine sweep at the listening position showed nothing. A puzzle.

Offline BobM

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #199 on: December 16, 2011, 05:05:46 AM »
Room treatments are God's way of saying he loves us and wants us to be audiophiles.
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Cry and you'll have to blow your nose.

Offline rollo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #200 on: December 16, 2011, 07:40:26 AM »
  Richadoo did you break the drivers in fully ?

charles
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Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #201 on: December 16, 2011, 07:58:24 AM »
Yes, they are on 12 hours a day since I finished them, maybe 5 months ago? They stopped changing after a couple months, but the 1st month they changed a lot. Thanks

I guess I'll need more room treatments! Lucky I have 2 more phases planned.  :twisted:

Offline rollo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #202 on: December 18, 2011, 09:51:23 AM »
  It seems the Calif. DIY crowd led by Nelson Pass are using some six channel amps to drive each driver with one channel.
  Have you ever tried that ? Maybe Shane has a six channel amp to experiment with. The DIY guys really like the results.
  Just thought I'd throuh it out there . Curious myself.



charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
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Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #203 on: December 18, 2011, 10:19:42 AM »
Thanks Charles, Yes, I am very interested in that. The benefits of active crossovers and direct amps are too numerous to mention. Direct amplification will be required to do the kind of active crossovers and room correction that I want to do in future speakers. I did active on my last OB speakers, ELips, so I have enough amps. I'm not a fan of the Pass xo solutions, but I have a very nice Rane pro xo and a Behringer and I can make an analog active XO from scratch.

This speaker does not lend itself to active crossover, for reasons described in the designers' concept article. Something to do with the phase of the drivers as their rear waves combine together in the horn. Of course, the simplicity of passive xo with one amp is a major benefit.

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #204 on: May 18, 2012, 07:08:00 AM »
My new DTQWT-12-V:
Use 38mm Baltic Birch all over! At max SPL the cabinet is like a rock. 0 vibrations, as it should be for something that weights over 300 lbs each.

External x-over with adjustable tone, and select-able amp input.

Baffle is correctly rounded based on diffraction models.

Supra Silver wire used.
Gold plated connections.

Now I need a room X5 bigger. Buying a house for these monsters!

I have only had the speakers done for a week so NO review on sound just yet, i will give them half a year. But initial impressions: BASS is perfect! So deep, hearing new things in each recording. Mid-range and tweeter are perfectly integrated, lots of break-in to come.

LOGIN to see photos.



« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 07:22:24 AM by Vaaa »

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #205 on: May 18, 2012, 10:09:07 AM »
Looks good Vaaa! Welcome to AN!

Please describe how you stuffed the horns for acoustic damping.
Did you use the Eminence drivers?
Is your "external crossover" active electronic?
Thanks!  
Rich
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 10:31:22 AM by richidoo »

Offline etcarroll

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #206 on: May 18, 2012, 11:34:17 AM »
Vaaa - sweet.

When's the gtg to listen?  8)
"...if you want to enjoy your gear, don't listen to anything that might be better."

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #207 on: May 26, 2012, 09:06:45 AM »
I stuffed based on what Troels suggested on the build page, as the speakers break in move i will perform analysis and play around with stuffing.
Any suggestions?

The crossover is not active, uses wax-coils/Superior Z-Cap/Silver-Z-Cap.
external xover lets me play with parts, adjust, balance, ect, and i can try active later as well.

I know I was not going to review sound just yet but Wow.
with each day the sound gets focused, deeper and the speaker seems to disappear.
the horn loading is amazing, drums and large orchestral music sound so natural, never going back to bass reflex crap speakers. and with 2 12s and the large mid the cones don't even move yet it can produce HUGE sound.

Size matters. large speakers make large sound. and need room to breathe.

new amp is in order now. any suggestions.
looking to build:

300b -trans interstage coupling. 8 watts
or
211 --trans interstage coupling. 21 watts -huge cost
or
845 --trans interstage coupling. 21 watts -huge cost
or
class a solid state.????

I dont think 8 watts is gonna be ample for a Mahler symphony.

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #208 on: May 26, 2012, 09:44:02 AM »
Thanks Vaaa. I experimented with stuffing quite a bit. What sounded best and kept the lowest extension was pushing the fluff to the sides so there was left an open passage through the entire horn length.

I have the same crossover as you.  :thumb:

You definitely need 20W+ to play anything loud complex and clean. SS is nice to have on the bass. Pass XA30.5 would be real nice or 50W+ PP tubes.

Did you use the same exact stuffing materials recommended by Troels and sold by Jantzen in the kit?

Where do you live, Vaaa?
Thanks
Rich

Offline richidoo

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Re: DTQWT-12
« Reply #209 on: May 30, 2012, 05:44:54 PM »
Vaaa's posts made me think about my pair of DTQWT. Despite playing for a year in these DTQWT speakers, the woofers were never fully broken in, as seen in the T/S measurements. After the factory recommended torture routine to break them in correctly, now they better match factory specs and should work with the bass horn better. Looking forward to firing them up again.