Power Cable Proof

[richidoo]

http://blog.stereophile.com/rmaf2010/nordost_and_vertex_measurements/

http://blog.stereophile.com/rmaf2010/what_time-domain_error_looks_like/

http://www.nordost.com/downloads/New%20Approaches%20To%20Audio%20Measurement.pdf

[Werd]

Its kind of sad that it had to get to this to make the point of cabling. When all you had to do is just plug it in and hear it...... Nayer sayers are a fricken hilarious and so detached from this hobby i can't understand why they even bother coming on these sites.

[richidoo]

The bench tester's hobby is proving it. They are having fun. Few engineers care how it sounds. Satisfaction comes from reducing distortion. Let the marketing people deal with the worse sound.

This study was conducted by cable manufacturers, so whether the conclusions are true of false they already know cables matter and it is sales propaganda. It's not like biology research, where the vested interest in industry wants to retain the profitable status quo. Everyone (even FVA) already knows cables matter and the money is already entrenched in the cable business. If they proved cables don't matter, then there would be an uproar because it would theoretically threaten the cable industry. But sales would probably still continue to rise as people hear the difference.

[Bigfish8]

Its kind of sad that it had to get to this to make the point of cabling. When all you had to do is just plug it in and hear it...... Nayer sayers are a fricken hilarious and so detached from this hobby i can't understand why they even bother coming on these sites.

I think I can understand folks stating they can hear a difference between cables but cannot justify the difference in price.  However, I have a very hard time with folks that claim cables make no difference in sound quality and they always support their claims with the documented proof.  Maybe I just have a hard time with those folks because I don't believe cable make a difference, I trust my own ears and know they make a difference!

Ken

[tmazz]

Whenever someone told me that I "couldn't" be hearing a difference in cables because they couldn't measure a difference on the bench I countered that just maybe the reason that they couldn't measure a difference was because they were simply looking at the wrong thing. These guys looked outside the box and how 'bout that, they found a different measurement that did indeed support the difference that so many of us had been hearing all these years. (Although I am sure there are going to be detractors that argue against the validity of the methods or measurements. )

It's nice to know I'm not crazy (well at least about this anyhow.)

[Werd]

I once had a prominent speaker manufacturer tell me that all the tweak improvements (whatever, cables,power supplies) we hear are just a pyshcological reaction in our brains. He was persistant with this, and with his understanding of psycho acoustics and  experience building speakers it gave him the confidence to guide people with this kind of advice.

I responded by saying  those pyshological reactions are amateur and don't reflect somebody's ability who has spent time in this hobby. I asked him, why do you tell people there are psychological barriers that they will never get over?

At the start i agree its easy to get fooled or not know what to listen for. But the skill is passive and it gets better over time, all it takes is just a interest in it.

some cables do sound the same but the good ones don't.

[topround]

Unfortunately the guys that claim they can't hear a difference paint themselves into a corner.
Frank Van Alstine did this on a different website with one guy I know challenging him. He ended up looking foolish to all but his fan boys.
Most of these guys are pretty adamant that there is no difference.
If they did hear a difference they could not admit it...hence the problem for them.

I usually ignore these types, there is no way you can convince them.
Pity them and move on, talk to them about something else...like the weather.

And i agree with Werd, why do they get involved with audio clubs?
Some people are just not capable of deep thought or alternative modes of thought. Challenging what you believe or your own thought process tends to stretch the mind, it is a good exercise. Sort of like taking the other side of a debate, and using all your thought skills to win the debate.
Of course some of them just come to debate, for all the psychologocal reasons we can imagine.

So talk about the weather, it is a good topic for them, because no one really knows the answer. Unless you are in the mood for a debate....but they are so easy to beat up on it is just unfair so I must go back to my original thought and talk about the weather.

So when you walk in to a room with a fist full of power cords to try, and some fool says they don't make a differnce just smile and say, "Boy did you see that lightning storm last nite?"
And he says,"No really do you think those cables will help?" Reply," I am glad it rained last nite because my clematis were suffering."
And when he says'"I bet you think interconnects make a difference?" You say," The price of oil just keeps going up, what are we going to do?" Which will start a new argument and everyone will forget about the power cords.!

Now about those Yankees


Mike



Mike

[lonewolfny42]

So talk about the weather....

I always pay attention to the weather....

[rollo]

  Why is proof so necassary ? Do we really care how or why ? Being a non technical audio person I leave it up to the designing Engineer to do his thing. When the product is offered for sale do we ask for the Engineering skematics or measurements. A minority yes and that is streching it. To most it comes down to what "it" sounds like in our system. It personal, subjective and economics.
   As Werd stated experience in listening over the years with exposure to all types of gear makes the buying decision for us NOT the hype or marketing frenzies.
   Unfortunately for us the really great sounding cables are very expensive. Warranted. That is only in the eye of the beholder. As I've stated numerous times before "if all cables were inexpensive the debate would just go away"
   Over the years many exotic cables have been tried. Currently the retail cost of what I'm using is rediculous. In total approx. $6200. Did I pay that amount NO no and no. If it were not for accomodation and favors no way would I own them.  They really improved my listening experience and are not coming out.  If I went all JPS it would be over $10,000. Would $10,000 be better spent for different components ? Or upgrading ? Maybe, maybe not, its an unknown. At least with cables you know on the spot what you get. If I could the entire system would be JPS Aluminata and SC. A dream yes but its nice to dream. 
   We hear what we hear no matter what the outside the influence is, its part of the exercise. It may matter to some why we hear what we hear but for most it does not. Enjoy.


charles

[StereoNut]

It's nice to know I'm not crazy (well at least about this anyhow.)

If I were you Tom, I don't know if I'd leave that to the mercy of the court!   

SN

[richidoo]

Charlie, it is just a bunch of engineers playing with themselves. The fact that they spent the money and time searching for something, anything to support their business' reason for existing and then publicizing the results at RMAF for all to see demonstrates their long standing shame in selling expensive wires with no scientific reason why they are worth it. Now they can say, "See? I told you! See?"  Their customers buy what sounds good, and don't care what the science says.

[rollo]

 Exactly.

charles

[Werd]

Charlie, it is just a bunch of engineers playing with themselves. The fact that they spent the money and time searching for something, anything to support their business' reason for existing and then publicizing the results at RMAF for all to see demonstrates their long standing shame in selling expensive wires with no scientific reason why they are worth it. Now they can say, "See? I told you! See?"  Their customers buy what sounds good, and don't care what the science says.

I know this an old thread but arent we all in a way old threads 

I was going through my old UHF mags and i came across a editorial where they used an old fashion tea kettle with a detachable cord. This detachable cord let them set up experiments that were not subjective but precise in their measurement of water temperature. They could prove that aftermarket power cables can heat water faster to boil than stock cables or other aftermarket cables. Its an easy experiment and proves that power cables can be built to be more responsive. It did nothing for testing noise though.

[Carlman]

Werd... Off topic... But if you know of a good electric kettle that stays safely warm on the outside that has adjustable settings and has a nice whistle when ready, please let me know.  The SQ is important to me.
-C

[DaveC]

  Why is proof so necassary ? Do we really care how or why ?

charles

Because beyond reducing capacitance for ICs and inductance for SCs it's hard to understand exactly how materials and geometry have the affects they do. The cable makers are mostly guessing and using trial and error in the "hifi" market. If we can correlate measurements with auditory perception we could understand how to build good sounding cables without super high price tags. I do not believe high prices necessarily have any correlation with value in the cable market. Beyond using expensive high purity metals and basic transmission line engineering principles it is all trail and error. For example, two cables with the same LCR specs might have significantly different materials and/or construction and sound very different from one another with no explanation from measurements.