Author Topic: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done  (Read 16306 times)

Offline TrueAudio

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2020, 08:49:31 AM »
Here's good info on the subject of Audio CD's:

https://www.cdrfaq.org/faq02.html

Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2020, 02:58:36 PM »
hi!

i appreciate your willingness to do this for me.  but i am still confused about what you'd be doing.  why two copies?  aren't you going to be copying one w/your special procedure, and then going to send me the original and the copy?

thanks!

doug s.
you can take my name off the list.  i have just listened to the first 7 songs of the marc cohn album; no way i could sit and listen to this even once, let alone the twice or more, necessary to do a meaningful comparison.  just not my cuppa.

thanks anyway,

doug s.
OK.  Too bad... 😔. If you want to send me two copies (preferably from the same production lot) of preferred music I’ll be happy to do my thing to them and send them back.  Just let me know.
From the first page, typos and all:

"I would be willing to buy 2 CD’, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols."

I wasn't very clear in what I wrote about the 2 CD thing.  One CD will be the control, the second will be treated and the black one is just to demonstrate the differences in the black media and the standard clear media.  They are all different and it is up to the listener to choose which one has the best SQ on his system.  We are all interested in superior SQ, right?
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline TrueAudio

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2020, 05:13:21 PM »
Here are pics (not the best quality) of the guys mod/rebuilding of the drive-custom power supply and chassis (double shell)--pretty elaborate:



Here's some more text I translated with google translate from:  http://api.guide.free.fr/blog/archive026.htm

He's noting actual sound quality differences between different optical drives:


"(*) The CDAD listening report read on the CD-SACD Phi Audiophile living room turntable will be read on the update

(**) When listening to the same ripped audio file, the Benq drive is less analytical than the Samsung. Samsung is more neutral, more detailed, cleaner. The Benq would seem more messy, its extreme bass is less varied, a little inflated. The Benq accentuates the lower midrange and the upper bass a little ... But it is its flaws that make it so charming, a charm made up of life, flesh, spontaneity, energy ... this is the illustration even the art of lying-truth ... and which earned him the note 9.5 in my ear. We can tell it's a bit colorful, but it's such a treat that we don't care about neutrality. The Benq has the advantage over the Samsung that it can be easily implemented even for less DIY enthusiasts.

(***) To benefit both from its precision, from its analytical power and at the same time from the same vitality as the Benq, the Samsung drive requires a lot of reconstruction work. But it's really worth it since in its final version it subjectively reaches a higher score, at 9.8.

(****) The comments on the final version (click) will be read on the update "91-power-ripp.htm file"

The two drives after transformation come together to give a very close sound reproduction, while very far at the start. As soon as we approach a certain perfection the differences fade in favor of an increased proximity with the damn original audio, the master tape. The final difference will be a personal musical choice, a more analytical sound rendering or a warmer sound rendering (the feeling will of course be much more subtle and nuanced than these coarse qualifiers). It can also be a practical choice if you find a used Benq drive. The DIY part will then be reduced."

He has a table where he documents his observations per each level of modification, where each series of mods, he notes improvements, rated on a scale of 1-10 (put the link into google translate to see the actual table).


"Match of old and new: DAE compared to external USB2 or internal UC CD-DVD drives / burners

Power supply 12v, 5v, original

With external power supply + Silmic2 filtering

With external power supply + Silmic2 filtering + cocooning + Pharos

With external power supply + Silmic2 filtering + cocooning + drive mounted in the audiophile Phi box, without then with Pharos, finally in its final version in a double shell case."
« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 05:16:01 PM by TrueAudio »

Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2020, 04:22:12 PM »
ok, so i was not getting that a regular cd that was "treated" would sound better than a regular untreated cd.  i was assuming that it was the ripping process - and doing it using a black cd - that was effecting the improvements. 

so, inquiring minds want to know - which sounds better (in your opinion) - the treated regular cd, or the specially ripped and treated (if other treatments are done) black cd?

i guess i should g back and re-read what, exactly, it is you're doing?  or is it not really clear?  hah!  😁

thanks,

doug s.
From the first page, typos and all:

"I would be willing to buy 2 CD’, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols."

I wasn't very clear in what I wrote about the 2 CD thing.  One CD will be the control, the second will be treated and the black one is just to demonstrate the differences in the black media and the standard clear media.  They are all different and it is up to the listener to choose which one has the best SQ on his system.  We are all interested in superior SQ, right?
Like I said, I’m not going to pollute the data pool by making direct statements that will effect expectation or confirmation bias.  That is what this entire exercise is all about.  Demonstrations of differences.
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2020, 06:25:11 PM »
ok, so i was not getting that a regular cd that was "treated" would sound better than a regular untreated cd.  i was assuming that it was the ripping process - and doing it using a black cd - that was effecting the improvements. 

so, inquiring minds want to know - which sounds better (in your opinion) - the treated regular cd, or the specially ripped and treated (if other treatments are done) black cd?

i guess i should g back and re-read what, exactly, it is you're doing?  or is it not really clear?  hah!  😁

thanks,

doug s.
From the first page, typos and all:

"I would be willing to buy 2 CD’, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols."

I wasn't very clear in what I wrote about the 2 CD thing.  One CD will be the control, the second will be treated and the black one is just to demonstrate the differences in the black media and the standard clear media.  They are all different and it is up to the listener to choose which one has the best SQ on his system.  We are all interested in superior SQ, right?
OK, Doug.  Let’s make this easy.  I’ll treat my copy of SKIP, HOP & WOBBLE, burn a black CD and send them both to you.  I will want to get my copy of that CD back from you.  Once you listen to yours, mine and the burned copy PM or email me with your thoughts.  DO NOT post your findings until the experiment is over.

OK?
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2020, 03:33:41 PM »
ok, so i was not getting that a regular cd that was "treated" would sound better than a regular untreated cd.  i was assuming that it was the ripping process - and doing it using a black cd - that was effecting the improvements. 

so, inquiring minds want to know - which sounds better (in your opinion) - the treated regular cd, or the specially ripped and treated (if other treatments are done) black cd?

i guess i should g back and re-read what, exactly, it is you're doing?  or is it not really clear?  hah!  😁

thanks,

doug s.
From the first page, typos and all:

"I would be willing to buy 2 CD’, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols."

I wasn't very clear in what I wrote about the 2 CD thing.  One CD will be the control, the second will be treated and the black one is just to demonstrate the differences in the black media and the standard clear media.  They are all different and it is up to the listener to choose which one has the best SQ on his system.  We are all interested in superior SQ, right?
OK, Doug.  Let’s make this easy.  I’ll treat my copy of SKIP, HOP & WOBBLE, burn a black CD and send them both to you.  I will want to get my copy of that CD back from you.  Once you listen to yours, mine and the burned copy PM or email me with your thoughts.  DO NOT post your findings until the experiment is over.

OK?
All I have here is crickets  🦗🦗🦗
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2020, 03:38:13 PM »
hi dave, lemme quote what you said prior, and maybe you'll understand a bit of my confusion:

For the highest quality rip here is what I do. I’m still using DB Poweramp...

Cryo the CD (yes, it matters)
Demag the CD
Demag a black CD
Burn with error correction enabled
Demag it again
Copy to the SSD
Transfer to the archive drive

Yes, every step makes an audible difference.

The real interesting aspects are cryo and demagnetizing.


so, what i got out of that is that, while a commercial cd that's cryo'd and demag'd may sound better than a commercial cd that's never been treated, what really sounds the best is a ripped black cd that's been cryo'd and demag'd.

so, if what i think is correct - that the best sound is coming from the ripped treated black cd - even better than the treated commercial cd, then all i really would need/want is the ripped/treated black cd.

in my own comparison quite a few years back, a plain old ordinary black cd ripped on a plain old ordinary pc sounded better than the commercial iteration (and patricia barber cd's re done up pretty well imo.)

if a commercial treated cd is better than a standard cd, i don't really care, if the treated ripped black cd is better still.

and just so i'm understanding exactly what you're doing -
- 1st, you cryo and demag a commercial cd. 
- then, you copy the commercial cryo'd/demag'd cd to your computer/burner set up.
- then, from your computer/burner set-up, you burn the copy on a (cryo'd/demag'd?) black cd.
- then you demag (and cryo?) the black cd again.

if the above is what your doing, (or close to it? - hah!), then all you need to do for me is to send me the special-sauce black cd copy.  i'll trust you that your treated commercial copy is better than the untreated commercial cd, but i'm only really interested in the best one, which is the black cd, as i'm understanding it.

thanks for your patience.   :mrgreen:

doug s.
ps - sorry for taking a while to respond - my injury means i'm not on the computer frequently, and forget about trying to answer from my cell-phone.   :?

ok, so i was not getting that a regular cd that was "treated" would sound better than a regular untreated cd.  i was assuming that it was the ripping process - and doing it using a black cd - that was effecting the improvements. 

so, inquiring minds want to know - which sounds better (in your opinion) - the treated regular cd, or the specially ripped and treated (if other treatments are done) black cd?

i guess i should g back and re-read what, exactly, it is you're doing?  or is it not really clear?  hah!  😁

thanks,

doug s.
From the first page, typos and all:

"I would be willing to buy 2 CD’, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols."

I wasn't very clear in what I wrote about the 2 CD thing.  One CD will be the control, the second will be treated and the black one is just to demonstrate the differences in the black media and the standard clear media.  They are all different and it is up to the listener to choose which one has the best SQ on his system.  We are all interested in superior SQ, right?
OK, Doug.  Let’s make this easy.  I’ll treat my copy of SKIP, HOP & WOBBLE, burn a black CD and send them both to you.  I will want to get my copy of that CD back from you.  Once you listen to yours, mine and the burned copy PM or email me with your thoughts.  DO NOT post your findings until the experiment is over.

OK?
No worries, Doug.  I was being impatient 'cuz I want to get this show on the road.  I'll send the full package to Don early next week.

PM me your address and I'll get the black CD off to you.  I just thought that as an audio nerd you might like to hear the differences.
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2020, 08:23:18 PM »
thanks, dave.

as an audio nerd, i'm ok with hearing "good" (commercial cd untreated) and "best" (treated black cd).  😁

am i to assume i'm correct that good-better-best is: commercial cd - treated clear cd - treated black cd?

thanks again,

doug
No worries, Doug.  I was being impatient 'cuz I want to get this show on the road.  I'll send the full package to Don early next week.

PM me your address and I'll get the black CD off to you.  I just thought that as an audio nerd you might like to hear the differences.
Like I said several times: I will not pollute the project with direct statements until it is over.  I’m not trying to be difficult, just loyal to the process.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 08:31:05 PM by P.I. »
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Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2020, 04:39:30 PM »
]The OWC Elite Pro is one of the best sounding drive enclosures available.  So says my digital guru Eric Hider.  He has listened to everything and the OWC is his choice due to the controller.  It does sound better than what I was using...

Hi Dave,

Is the matching OWC optical drive ok as well? I keep hearing some Pioneer model (that doesn't fit the OWC) as being great as well. Or is the choice of optical drive not as critical as the controller of the enclosure?

Then there is the question of the power supply and usb connection to the drive, correct?

Paul
Sorry for the late reply.  Basically Eric said he really can't speak to this when Windblows is involved. He (like me) thinks that the Mac OSX solutions are superior to Windblows based software because of the integral audio engine in OSX being inherently better sounding.  I have to agree.  I spent way too much money trying to build a PC based server that sounded better than the entry level Mac and just could not do it.  I have cases and motherboards here for those that want to try.

I use a SuperDive and I am very happy with he SQ.  Getting data off of the disc is easy.  What happens next... not so much.

He did say that some of his friends and customers praise the Teac drives.

Bottom line:  who really knows?
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline malloy

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2020, 09:28:08 PM »
Sorry for the late reply.  Basically Eric said he really can't speak to this when Windblows is involved. He (like me) thinks that the Mac OSX solutions are superior to Windblows based software because of the integral audio engine in OSX being inherently better sounding.  I have to agree.  I spent way too much money trying to build a PC based server that sounded better than the entry level Mac and just could not do it.  I have cases and motherboards here for those that want to try.

I use a SuperDive and I am very happy with he SQ.  Getting data off of the disc is easy.  What happens next... not so much.

He did say that some of his friends and customers praise the Teac drives.

Bottom line:  who really knows?
[/quote]

Thanks Dave! :thumb:

Paul

Offline P.I.

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The CD rip/burn experiment is underway...
« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2020, 09:30:29 PM »
I’ll be sending the discs out to the first victim participant tomorrow (Tuesday).

Don, I’ll send you the tracking number.

Let the head scratching begin!   :thumb:
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Offline Nick B

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Offline P.I.

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Offline dflee

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2020, 11:22:36 AM »
"OK

https://media2.giphy.com/media/3ohjUZZEFfWJfaeKUE/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e478e5629e6ba9acc5953c32cf60ce1fd0c6d2147f7&rid=giphy.gif

That thing is never ending! I did like the Fred Sanford though.

Guinea Pig #1 reporting for duty.
"Enjoy pleasure, not because it is fleeting, but because it exists at all." Sacrament, Clive Barker.

Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2020, 11:42:53 AM »
"OK

https://media2.giphy.com/media/3ohjUZZEFfWJfaeKUE/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e478e5629e6ba9acc5953c32cf60ce1fd0c6d2147f7&rid=giphy.gif

That thing is never ending! I did like the Fred Sanford though.

Guinea Pig #1 reporting for duty.

I was going to put this is the shipping box, but being the dumbass I am I sealed the box up without it, so:

Players,

Please treat the discs carefully as the performance is directly related to disc condition.

It is your responsibility to send the disc to the next person in line.  Please reuse the packing material and use a USPS small flate rate Priority mail box.

The lineup so far is :

dflee

Malloy

Barry

I’m sending Doug s a copy of a different CD.

I’ll try to get some additional victims.

Ya’ll have fun!
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe