Author Topic: opinions wanted on subwoofers  (Read 22517 times)

Offline toobluvr

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2023, 04:43:40 AM »
If you're up for it, you can make a very simple high-pass filter (passive) that you place before the main amp:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=181310.0

Thanks tl. Since I moved, I have yet to find a number of things which includes my soldering iron. One of the guys here suggested this device....
https://www.parts-express.com/FMOD-Crossover-Pair-50-Hz-High-Pass-266-270?quantity=1
I would be attaching it to the XLR adapter at the amp.

I have no direct experience with those Harrison filters, but I have read comments over the years that they noticeably degrade the signal.  FWIW.  I would have more confidence in the Danny Richie / GR Research stuff that I linked.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2023, 05:07:49 AM by toobluvr »
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Offline James Edward

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2023, 07:56:06 AM »
As if you needed another opinion…
I wouldn’t get so hung up on the high pass filter- I understand what you want to use it for, but the easier and simpler solution is to run the speakers full range, and blend the sub in. You may find the sound as such is what you’re listening for.
Of course, ideally, you’d need a sub with speaker level inputs. The RSL sub mentioned has them, as do many others.
I looked up your speakers, and the reviews say it has a 7” woofer, which isn’t all that tiny. Unless it’s a deceiving photo, your room doesn’t seem overly large either, maybe mitigating the need to relieve your mains of full range duty.
Either way, I hope you quell your audio nervosa.
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Offline GDHAL

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2023, 08:16:23 AM »
As if you needed another opinion…
I wouldn’t get so hung up on the high pass filter- I understand what you want to use it for, but the easier and simpler solution is to run the speakers full range, and blend the sub in. You may find the sound as such is what you’re listening for.
Of course, ideally, you’d need a sub with speaker level inputs. The RSL sub mentioned has them, as do many others.
I looked up your speakers, and the reviews say it has a 7” woofer, which isn’t all that tiny. Unless it’s a deceiving photo, your room doesn’t seem overly large either, maybe mitigating the need to relieve your mains of full range duty.
Either way, I hope you quell your audio nervosa.

+1 !!!

Excuse the repetition, but this bears repeating -

I mentioned I've bowed out of this thread, which I have. I didn't mention I wouldn't add an editorial comment from time to time, so I hope everyone doesn't mind. Again, this is just editorial...

I've always been of the opinion, and have written as much here on this site numerous times, that *in my opinion* adding one or more external subs to a system can be difficult, challenging and produce unexpected, unintended and unwanted results, and that "better" (where better is determined by YOU, the person adding the sub(s)) is in no way guaranteed.

Over the course of my lifetime, I can't get over how often *my opinion* is reinforced.  :thumb:

Best.

Hal

--------- not posted previously, but shall now as I noted Nick has not downloaded MH-GOD -
excerpt from some forum threads.. comments from others....


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/bass-test-songs-my-recommendations.55881/

Mickey Hart: Dafos. Recorded by Keith Johnson and released on Reference Recordings. The track "The Gates of Dafos" has a moment that an Abso!ute Sound reviewer measured as going down to 16 Hz. He described it as the aural equivalent of having a UPS truck crash through the wall of your living room, IIRC.


https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/best-woofer-50hz-300hz-hi-eff-maybe-15.158170/page-7

I do not want or need that. My Quadripole subs are not quite like the usual subs, when there is a pulse of LF (try Mickey Hart's Dafos, Gates of Dafos) the THUD pins you against your chair. No thud - no superfluous woofing going on.


https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/134617-subwoofers~svs-vs-tapped-horn-vs-fitzmaurice-tht/page/5/#comment-1512810

The sustained synthesizer part towards the end had incredible weight, and bloom. Absolutley awesome. on Dafos, a Reference Recordings CD, "The Gates of Dafos, Mickey Hart goes to town on his signature instrument "The Beast". For those of you who are familiar with this "thing" know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tubecad.com/2021/08/blog0542.htm
I remember once hearing four subwoofers powered by 500W amplifiers at a friend's house, the famous Mickey Hart Dafos CD playing at full volume, the track The Gates Of Dafos delivering what sounds like a upright piano tipped over or a huge drum kit dropped from the second story.
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Offline P.I.

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2023, 12:35:01 PM »
If you're up for it, you can make a very simple high-pass filter (passive) that you place before the main amp:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=181310.0

Thanks tl. Since I moved, I have yet to find a number of things which includes my soldering iron. One of the guys here suggested this device....
https://www.parts-express.com/FMOD-Crossover-Pair-50-Hz-High-Pass-266-270?quantity=1
I would be attaching it to the XLR adapter at the amp.
The FMODS suck.  To get an idea of Harrison Labs corporate approach to SQ take a look at what they sell for a speaker crossover:

https://www.hlabs.com/products/crossovers/index_files/Page1002.htm

The FMODS use crappy ceramic caps instead of the very high quality film caps needed for the application.

Did you get my email?
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Offline Nick B

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2023, 02:02:06 PM »
As if you needed another opinion…
I wouldn’t get so hung up on the high pass filter- I understand what you want to use it for, but the easier and simpler solution is to run the speakers full range, and blend the sub in. You may find the sound as such is what you’re listening for.
Of course, ideally, you’d need a sub with speaker level inputs. The RSL sub mentioned has them, as do many others.
I looked up your speakers, and the reviews say it has a 7” woofer, which isn’t all that tiny. Unless it’s a deceiving photo, your room doesn’t seem overly large either, maybe mitigating the need to relieve your mains of full range duty.
Either way, I hope you quell your audio nervosa.

+1 !!!

Excuse the repetition, but this bears repeating -

I mentioned I've bowed out of this thread, which I have. I didn't mention I wouldn't add an editorial comment from time to time, so I hope everyone doesn't mind. Again, this is just editorial...

I've always been of the opinion, and have written as much here on this site numerous times, that *in my opinion* adding one or more external subs to a system can be difficult, challenging and produce unexpected, unintended and unwanted results, and that "better" (where better is determined by YOU, the person adding the sub(s)) is in no way guaranteed.

Over the course of my lifetime, I can't get over how often *my opinion* is reinforced.  :thumb:

Best.

Hal

--------- not posted previously, but shall now as I noted Nick has not downloaded MH-GOD -
excerpt from some forum threads.. comments from others....


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/bass-test-songs-my-recommendations.55881/

Mickey Hart: Dafos. Recorded by Keith Johnson and released on Reference Recordings. The track "The Gates of Dafos" has a moment that an Abso!ute Sound reviewer measured as going down to 16 Hz. He described it as the aural equivalent of having a UPS truck crash through the wall of your living room, IIRC.


https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/best-woofer-50hz-300hz-hi-eff-maybe-15.158170/page-7

I do not want or need that. My Quadripole subs are not quite like the usual subs, when there is a pulse of LF (try Mickey Hart's Dafos, Gates of Dafos) the THUD pins you against your chair. No thud - no superfluous woofing going on.


https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/134617-subwoofers~svs-vs-tapped-horn-vs-fitzmaurice-tht/page/5/#comment-1512810

The sustained synthesizer part towards the end had incredible weight, and bloom. Absolutley awesome. on Dafos, a Reference Recordings CD, "The Gates of Dafos, Mickey Hart goes to town on his signature instrument "The Beast". For those of you who are familiar with this "thing" know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tubecad.com/2021/08/blog0542.htm
I remember once hearing four subwoofers powered by 500W amplifiers at a friend's house, the famous Mickey Hart Dafos CD playing at full volume, the track The Gates Of Dafos delivering what sounds like a upright piano tipped over or a huge drum kit dropped from the second story.

Thanks. I will compile and save a LF playlist on Roon. I'm in a home improvement project frame of mind right now, so I'll save all the reading for tonight. I took some measurements last night per a member's help and here's what I came up with. This is just using my iphone and the Audio Tools app. My room is untreated with a bare glass 4'x5' window behind the rack. Again, my purpose in considering sub(s) is not to gain LF response, rather it's to try and improve the performance of the 7" AMT tweeter and 7" midwoofer driver on the Reynaud speakers. The xover on the JMR is at 1200 Hz. How adding a sub or two will actually sound and will it give me a worthwhile performance, I have no idea. BTW, the Reynaud bass gets into the 20s.

400 hz       81.5 db
250           84
125           68
100           70
60             58
50             59.5
40             72.5
30             65
20             53
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JMR Voce Grande speakers
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Audio Envy p cords
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Offline Nick B

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2023, 02:09:38 PM »
If you're up for it, you can make a very simple high-pass filter (passive) that you place before the main amp:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=181310.0

Thanks tl. Since I moved, I have yet to find a number of things which includes my soldering iron. One of the guys here suggested this device....
https://www.parts-express.com/FMOD-Crossover-Pair-50-Hz-High-Pass-266-270?quantity=1
I would be attaching it to the XLR adapter at the amp.
The FMODS suck.  To get an idea of Harrison Labs corporate approach to SQ take a look at what they sell for a speaker crossover:

https://www.hlabs.com/products/crossovers/index_files/Page1002.htm

The FMODS use crappy ceramic caps instead of the very high quality film caps needed for the application.

Did you get my email?

Thanks for that. I'm all for saving money and simplifying things, but 😳
Since you're not a fan of the Harrison FMOD, do you think the Sublime external crossover is reasonable to consider? If not, I don't want to spend the money ...like $2000 and up right now just for an external crossover to venture into the world of subs for the 1st time....
https://sublimeacoustic.com/collections/frontpage/products/k231-stereo-3-way-active-crossover
Yes, got your email and am responding
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Hattor Big preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Holo Cyan2 dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2023, 04:40:52 PM »
Nick you might be able to effect a low frequency roll off with the MUSE - Precision Audio Control: Parametric Equalizer in the MUSE suite. It would be a lot cheaper to do the low frequency roll off in the system via software.
 There is a good chance that this would sound better than any hardware solution implemented in analog domain.
I am unfamiliar with the slope options available in MUSE suite but most parametric EQs have at least 24dB/oct
available as well as variable slope Q.
Scotty

Offline Nick B

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2023, 04:48:26 PM »
Nick you might be able to effect a low frequency roll off with the MUSE - Precision Audio Control: Parametric Equalizer in the MUSE suite. It would be a lot cheaper to do the low frequency roll off in the system via software.
 There is a good chance that this would sound better than any hardware solution implemented in analog domain.
I am unfamiliar with the slope options available in MUSE suite but most parametric EQs have at least 24dB/oct
available as well as variable slope Q.
Scotty


Scotty,

I'm assuming you mean MUSE as the new feature on Roon. Possibly MUSE is available as a stand alone product as well. I looked at MUSE a bit a couple of nights ago. Are you saying that if I decrease the bass output a bit to create less of a load on the 7" JMR driver, that it might improve the performance of that driver and the AMT tweeter? Maybe the best of both worlds as I'd be still getting enough bass for my non lowest LF needs??

Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Hattor Big preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Holo Cyan2 dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2023, 05:11:20 PM »
Bingo, it doesn't matter whether you get rid of the LF via software or hardware they're
still gone. I addition you can precisely tailor the crossover point so that it sounds best to you.
 You have way more flexibility in software than hardware.
Scotty

Offline P.I.

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2023, 05:36:29 PM »
Bingo, it doesn't matter whether you get rid of the LF via software or hardware they're
still gone. I addition you can precisely tailor the crossover point so that it sounds best to you.
 You have way more flexibility in software than hardware.
Scotty

What Scotty said.

I'm not the guy to chase the newest and latest.  That's the reason I still use a 2012 Core i7 Mac mini as the system brains.  The audio engine in that generation mini was terrific and with the bare bones dB Audio Labs software still surpasses most sources.  Because of this I use Steinberg VST plugins to manipulate the data in the digital domain.  There is a huge difference between response into the upper 20's and having that response with authority and impact!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Studio_Technology

https://blog.landr.com/best-free-vst-plugins/

The free plugins offer ~ 98% of those for retail sale.

Here are a few that work well and are essentially  transparent:

https://www.meldaproduction.com/MEqualizer  (this is a Swiss Army Knife!)

https://www.patreon.com/posts/fiver-48483719

https://www.kvraudio.com/product/luftikus-by-lkjb

« Last Edit: July 18, 2023, 06:47:55 PM by P.I. »
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Offline Nick B

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2023, 07:34:00 PM »
Bingo, it doesn't matter whether you get rid of the LF via software or hardware they're
still gone. I addition you can precisely tailor the crossover point so that it sounds best to you.
 You have way more flexibility in software than hardware.
Scotty


Thanks, Scotty. I will study up on MUSE and try a few settings to evaluate the effect. I'm using a Mac desktop that falls within the Roon core criteria, so it should work fine.
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Hattor Big preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Holo Cyan2 dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline Nick B

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2023, 11:53:59 PM »
Bingo, it doesn't matter whether you get rid of the LF via software or hardware they're
still gone. I addition you can precisely tailor the crossover point so that it sounds best to you.
 You have way more flexibility in software than hardware.
Scotty


Thanks, Scotty. I will study up on MUSE and try a few settings to evaluate the effect. I'm using a Mac desktop that falls within the Roon core criteria, so it should work fine.

Scotty,

Great stuff this MUSE software! Am playing from 500 hz down to see effects. Am focusing on 100 down and also boosting between 60-80 based on measurements last night. Can't access MUSE on the ipad, but can on my Mac OS laptop. Thanks again 👍

On another note,  I moved from St George end of last year and now in cowboy town Pahrump near Vegas. Same scorching heat 😳  You're up in Cedar City, right?
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Hattor Big preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Holo Cyan2 dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline Nick B

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2023, 12:03:48 AM »
Bingo, it doesn't matter whether you get rid of the LF via software or hardware they're
still gone. I addition you can precisely tailor the crossover point so that it sounds best to you.
 You have way more flexibility in software than hardware.
Scotty

What Scotty said.

I'm not the guy to chase the newest and latest.  That's the reason I still use a 2012 Core i7 Mac mini as the system brains.  The audio engine in that generation mini was terrific and with the bare bones dB Audio Labs software still surpasses most sources.  Because of this I use Steinberg VST plugins to manipulate the data in the digital domain.  There is a huge difference between response into the upper 20's and having that response with authority and impact!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Studio_Technology

https://blog.landr.com/best-free-vst-plugins/

The free plugins offer ~ 98% of those for retail sale.

Here are a few that work well and are essentially  transparent:

https://www.meldaproduction.com/MEqualizer  (this is a Swiss Army Knife!)

https://www.patreon.com/posts/fiver-48483719

https://www.kvraudio.com/product/luftikus-by-lkjb

Thanks for all that info, Dave.

Lots more to assimilate.... 😀  I've been using eq to decrease bass in 10 hz increments from 50 down. Fuller midrange...male vocal... at least on the first song I attempted
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Hattor Big preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Holo Cyan2 dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline P.I.

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2023, 09:41:59 AM »
Lots more to assimilate.... 😀  I've been using eq to decrease bass in 10 hz increments from 50 down. Fuller midrange...male vocal... at least on the first song I attempted

Decrease?  :shock:
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Offline _Scotty_

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2023, 09:58:45 AM »
Still up in Cedar.
Scotty