Author Topic: opinions wanted on subwoofers  (Read 21820 times)

Online Nick B

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opinions wanted on subwoofers
« on: July 09, 2023, 07:46:01 PM »
Things are sounding quite good in so. Nevada 🎶 .... but.... 🙄
A non active member here recently suggested I add subwoofers and sent me a number of links on subs and crossovers. Interesting reading indeed. Even though very low bass response is not a priority for me and never has been, he feels that relieving the JMR 6" driver will result in an improved midrange and treble, enough to warrant the expense and annoyance (for me) of dealing with the extra power cords and cables. My JM Reynaud is a 2 way and uses the AMT tweeter. It's a terrific speaker, the best I've ever owned.

In addition to the provided links of the Starke subs, Rythmik, SVS and Tekton were also recommended.
https://shop.starkesound.com/collections/subwoofers
If I were to go that direction, and because it would be my first entry into the world of subwoofers, my criteria would be this:

1) reasonable cost without degrading the current level of SQ
2) the less weight, the better...preferably in the 40-50 lb range
3) a smaller footprint ... 13" x 13" and open as to height
4) not needing an external crossover device like a Marchant
5) powered
6) preferably a servo controlled unit
7) 2 smaller woofers...8" or 10"...would be fine with me
8)kit form is fine and I'd either attempt it myself or take it to Las Vegas or I have a neighbor who might do me a favor and do the soldering
9) wireless capability would be great

I've heard that open baffle servo controlled subs sound the best and allow for the most flexible placement. So I did check out Rythmik's double 8"s and Danny Ritchie's kits, but that puts me at $1,000+ each for the Rythmik and a lot more for the GR Research.

I've attached an icloud link to my living room.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0187zKDiDyMeJAH4CRv735EoA

Comments appreciated!
Nick


« Last Edit: July 09, 2023, 09:40:34 PM by Nick B »
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
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Offline HAL

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2023, 07:25:41 AM »
Nick,
The 8in servo sub idea is something that I hope that GR-Research will make cabinet kits available. 

I want to try a 3x8 or 4x8 stack (hopefully modular) with my MG10/QR project.  Already have the RA A370XLR3 servo amps to use.

Online Nick B

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2023, 09:17:09 AM »
Rich,

It would be great if GR offered it at some point. Dual 8s are intriguing and I'd opt for one facing forward and the other one to the rear. That type of kit I could likely do myself and get a very nice finish on it. I don't know if something other than mdf would be available or if that is preferred because of cost and other factors. I don't like using it.

Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline GDHAL

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2023, 09:47:00 AM »
Not wireless but I think it meets your other criteria.  :thumb:

https://www.goldenear.com/subwoofers/forcefield-series/forcefield-3
GoldenEar Triton Reference (pair), Musical Fidelity M6si, Schiit Yggdrasil-OG-B, Oppo UDP-205, Emotiva ERC-3, LG OLED65C9PUA, Salamander Synergy Triple Unit SL20, Audeze LCD-X, GIK acoustic paneling
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Online Nick B

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2023, 06:14:47 PM »
Not wireless but I think it meets your other criteria.  :thumb:

https://www.goldenear.com/subwoofers/forcefield-series/forcefield-3

Hal,

That looks like a really nice sub and good value. Nice design to also include the down firing sub. Do you have any idea if there is such a thing as a third party wireless device that could be used on these or any other subs that aren't designed wireless capable?

Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline Jack

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2023, 06:28:35 PM »
As you would expect I am going to stick with the recommendation I have already made and that is the RSl Speedwoofer 10S Mk II.  I have used a pair at the house in Greenville with four different speakers including two that you have owned, the Fritz Carrera Be and the Reynaud Abscisse. In addition they have also been paired with the Reynaud Bliss and now for the last 18 months the Rosso Fiorentino Voltera 2. In each case they have blended in easily whether wired speaker level or line level.  While they are certainly not the equal of the Rythmik F12's at the house in Florida they more than get the job done bass wise and as that other member told you add to the sense of space and soundstage. At $449 a piece or $898 for a recommended pair they are really hard to beat with free shipping and a 30 day trial period. If they fail to live up to what you expect you send them back for $50 a piece with their shipping label which is a lot less than it would cost you to ship them and easier than trying to sell them yourself as you would with other brands.  With the price increase at Rythmik the price of the pair of Speedwoofers will only get you about 2/3 of a single Rythmik sub.  Only other "known" option I am familiar with would be the SVS SB-1000 Pro at $1149 a pair.

https://rslspeakers.com/speedwoofer10s-mkii/
https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-1000-pro-subwoofer

No familiarity with the Goldenear subs but have owned a pair of their speakers back when they were an independent company and not part of Audioquest.  My experience with them is that while their products are well built their stats are greatly exaggerated.
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Offline Jack

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2023, 06:34:52 PM »
Nick

A friend of mine in Tallahassee bought a pair of Speedwoofer 10 MK II's a couple of months ago that I helped him integrate with a pair of Odyssey Lorelei speakers he bought from me.  He bought the wireless modules for some reason even though the subs were going to be within a few feet of the mains and the rack.  We tried them both wireless and wired and both thought wired was better even using a pair of cheap Amazon RCA cables.  If you are going to be placing them along the same front wall as the VG's the no need for the wireless device as a cheap pair of RCA cables is all you need. While we had them hooked up with the wireless devices we tried multiple locations in the room and in the end what logically seemed the best location to start with was.
JVC QL-Y7 w/ Denon DL-301 Mk II
Vista Phono II
Jays Audio CDT3 Mk III
Supratek Cabernet
Kinki Studio EX-B7's
Holo Audio May KTE
Auralic Aries G1
Verity Otello
(2) Rythmik F12SE
TWL PC's
Audio Envy IC, PC, SC
Inakustik USB, I2S
PSA Stellar P3
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Offline GDHAL

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2023, 07:14:25 PM »
Not wireless but I think it meets your other criteria.  :thumb:

https://www.goldenear.com/subwoofers/forcefield-series/forcefield-3

Hal,

That looks like a really nice sub and good value. Nice design to also include the down firing sub. Do you have any idea if there is such a thing as a third party wireless device that could be used on these or any other subs that aren't designed wireless capable?

Nick

Hi Nick. I honestly have no idea about wireless options where speakers are concerned. I do  know that when it comes to audio, any wireless option would degrade sound quality compared to a wired equivalent.

I looked at your room photo and cannot understand why wired would be problematic.

In any case, the GoldenEar is probably the best bang for the buck. Also, download the spec sheet and install PDF files. The specs on the website are ultra conservative because Audioquest parameters put specs tremendously in favor of the consumer. Meaning actual performance will be much better (not that the Audioquest specs are bad) as GoldenEar reports in their specs.

Not trying or meaning to be a salesman, and I do own GE speakers, but for real they cannot be beat from a *value* perspective.

There are a lot of other good suggestions in this thread, so you have much to ponder 🤔

Best

Hal
GoldenEar Triton Reference (pair), Musical Fidelity M6si, Schiit Yggdrasil-OG-B, Oppo UDP-205, Emotiva ERC-3, LG OLED65C9PUA, Salamander Synergy Triple Unit SL20, Audeze LCD-X, GIK acoustic paneling
http://halr.x10.mx/other.html

Online Nick B

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2023, 07:49:24 PM »
Not wireless but I think it meets your other criteria.  :thumb:

https://www.goldenear.com/subwoofers/forcefield-series/forcefield-3

Hal,

That looks like a really nice sub and good value. Nice design to also include the down firing sub. Do you have any idea if there is such a thing as a third party wireless device that could be used on these or any other subs that aren't designed wireless capable?

Nick

Hi Nick. I honestly have no idea about wireless options where speakers are concerned. I do  know that when it comes to audio, any wireless option would degrade sound quality compared to a wired equivalent.

I looked at your room photo and cannot understand why wired would be problematic.

In any case, the GoldenEar is probably the best bang for the buck. Also, download the spec sheet and install PDF files. The specs on the website are ultra conservative because Audioquest parameters put specs tremendously in favor of the consumer. Meaning actual performance will be much better (not that the Audioquest specs are bad) as GoldenEar reports in their specs.

Not trying or meaning to be a salesman, and I do own GE speakers, but for real they cannot be beat from a *value* perspective.

There are a lot of other good suggestions in this thread, so you have much to ponder 🤔

Best

Hal

Hal,

I was thinking wireless because I recently moved and it became obvious that I still have too much "stuff". That's why I'm digitizing all my photos that are in albums and shoeboxes. I'll do the same for all my CDs and no longer be keeping any, either selling, donating or discarding the rest.

Having said that, I've always been wireless in my streaming and it's always given me grief...until I took Jack's advice and bought a TP Link wireless mesh system. It works flawlessly and a wired connection to my Holo Red streamer and Mac desktop, which houses the Roon core, has solved ALL my streaming issues and Roon runs flawlessly. So my desire for less stuff and fewer wires is tempered by reality and what works well and saves me a lot of aggravation.

I do like the GE quite a bit. Jack's suggestions in the past have worked out great and the RSL looks like a great value as well. Ideally, 8" servo controlled subs sold as a kit with or without the wood/mdf are the most intriguing to me. But there is no such kit that I could find and a finished 8" dual sub comes in at $1,000 and I'd want two.

I thought it would be fun and informative to open up the discussion here and I'm learning a lot. Ive  owned a lot of equipment over the last 35+ years, but never any subs. So i'm treading carefully considering doing this.
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline Jack

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2023, 07:54:12 PM »
I didn't pay that much attention to see if GE or SVS have any type of return policy and if so what it costs. 
JVC QL-Y7 w/ Denon DL-301 Mk II
Vista Phono II
Jays Audio CDT3 Mk III
Supratek Cabernet
Kinki Studio EX-B7's
Holo Audio May KTE
Auralic Aries G1
Verity Otello
(2) Rythmik F12SE
TWL PC's
Audio Envy IC, PC, SC
Inakustik USB, I2S
PSA Stellar P3
Uberbuss

Offline GDHAL

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2023, 08:15:07 PM »
I didn't pay that much attention to see if GE or SVS have any type of return policy and if so what it costs.

I don't know about GE return policy. That could be dependent on the dealership, if you use one and don't buy via direct website (that cannot be done for TRef).

What I and thousands ( literally) do know is that no manufacturer has better warranty than GE. Should a problem arise, suffice it to say you're covered parts and labor, even if you're out of warranty!!
GoldenEar Triton Reference (pair), Musical Fidelity M6si, Schiit Yggdrasil-OG-B, Oppo UDP-205, Emotiva ERC-3, LG OLED65C9PUA, Salamander Synergy Triple Unit SL20, Audeze LCD-X, GIK acoustic paneling
http://halr.x10.mx/other.html

Online Nick B

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2023, 08:57:18 PM »
As you would expect I am going to stick with the recommendation I have already made and that is the RSl Speedwoofer 10S Mk II.  I have used a pair at the house in Greenville with four different speakers including two that you have owned, the Fritz Carrera Be and the Reynaud Abscisse. In addition they have also been paired with the Reynaud Bliss and now for the last 18 months the Rosso Fiorentino Voltera 2. In each case they have blended in easily whether wired speaker level or line level.  While they are certainly not the equal of the Rythmik F12's at the house in Florida they more than get the job done bass wise and as that other member told you add to the sense of space and soundstage. At $449 a piece or $898 for a recommended pair they are really hard to beat with free shipping and a 30 day trial period. If they fail to live up to what you expect you send them back for $50 a piece with their shipping label which is a lot less than it would cost you to ship them and easier than trying to sell them yourself as you would with other brands.  With the price increase at Rythmik the price of the pair of Speedwoofers will only get you about 2/3 of a single Rythmik sub.  Only other "known" option I am familiar with would be the SVS SB-1000 Pro at $1149 a pair.

https://rslspeakers.com/speedwoofer10s-mkii/
https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-1000-pro-subwoofer

No familiarity with the Goldenear subs but have owned a pair of their speakers back when they were an independent company and not part of Audioquest.  My experience with them is that while their products are well built their stats are greatly exaggerated.

As you know, my main focus with considering subs is to allow the treble and mids to perform even better. If I will gain a better sense of space and soundstage as you mentioned, I'd be thrilled. That is what could use a bit of improvement right now. As I play very little material that challenges the very low registers, the type of subs you and Hal have mentioned are probably the best bang for the buck and especially being my first time owning subs.

As to a warranty, it's not a huge concern as I've only had to have one item repaired in all my years in audio. That was a Judd Barber LA 100 preamp that I left on overnight playing a break in disc. In the morning it wasn't playing. I think it was a cold solder joint.
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline Jack

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2023, 09:28:04 PM »
Nick

While I will acknowledge that in general Goldenear make quality products and have good support as good as the Forcefield 3 may be in your system it would not be a simple plug and play process due to it's architecture.  For you the most convenient hookup method would be to use a set of the RCA outs on the Supratek to the sub and adjust the crossover somewhere between 40-60hz to get a smooth transition.  If the VG's bass extension is similar to the Carrera's that would be close to 50hz. With the Forcefield however using the line level inputs bypasses the crossover entirely and is dependent on the internal crossover function of a receiver or HT processor.  To use the subs crossover function you would have to use the speaker level inputs which in the case of your Starkrimson is likely to cause a problem as if it is like most "Class D" amps it's negative speaker terminals do not present a true ground causing either the sub amp or both amps to buzz if you don't connect the negative terminal on the amp side to an alternative ground point.  With you being a newbie to subs I don't think this is something you would want us to diagnose for you over the internet or even by phone.  Were you still using the SET 120 this wouldn't be an issue or would it be with any Class A or Class AB amp.  This is the main reason Brian at Rythmik never recommends speaker level inputs on his subs as he has to many repair issues from people trying to hook them up to either Class D or even differential balanced amps as neither types have a true ground on their negative terminals.  I had this problem when I was using the Rythmik subs with the differential balanced BHK amps and had to have an alternative ground point for the negative speaker cable.  As I had done it before it wasn't a big deal to me but it likely would be for you plus even more wires. 
JVC QL-Y7 w/ Denon DL-301 Mk II
Vista Phono II
Jays Audio CDT3 Mk III
Supratek Cabernet
Kinki Studio EX-B7's
Holo Audio May KTE
Auralic Aries G1
Verity Otello
(2) Rythmik F12SE
TWL PC's
Audio Envy IC, PC, SC
Inakustik USB, I2S
PSA Stellar P3
Uberbuss

Online Nick B

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2023, 11:27:14 PM »
Nick

While I will acknowledge that in general Goldenear make quality products and have good support as good as the Forcefield 3 may be in your system it would not be a simple plug and play process due to it's architecture.  For you the most convenient hookup method would be to use a set of the RCA outs on the Supratek to the sub and adjust the crossover somewhere between 40-60hz to get a smooth transition.  If the VG's bass extension is similar to the Carrera's that would be close to 50hz. With the Forcefield however using the line level inputs bypasses the crossover entirely and is dependent on the internal crossover function of a receiver or HT processor.  To use the subs crossover function you would have to use the speaker level inputs which in the case of your Starkrimson is likely to cause a problem as if it is like most "Class D" amps it's negative speaker terminals do not present a true ground causing either the sub amp or both amps to buzz if you don't connect the negative terminal on the amp side to an alternative ground point.  With you being a newbie to subs I don't think this is something you would want us to diagnose for you over the internet or even by phone.  Were you still using the SET 120 this wouldn't be an issue or would it be with any Class A or Class AB amp.  This is the main reason Brian at Rythmik never recommends speaker level inputs on his subs as he has to many repair issues from people trying to hook them up to either Class D or even differential balanced amps as neither types have a true ground on their negative terminals.  I had this problem when I was using the Rythmik subs with the differential balanced BHK amps and had to have an alternative ground point for the negative speaker cable.  As I had done it before it wasn't a big deal to me but it likely would be for you plus even more wires.

Jack,

I'm glad you mentioned that. Another factor to consider, although I'd prefer not to have to deal with any potential grounding issues. I do appreciate the smaller footprint and less weight (26 vs 40 lbs), but it's not a big consideration. As you mentioned the ground, it reminded me that my VGs have a ground connection. No need to try it as the system is dead quiet, except for a left channel pop on turn on and off. Im presuming it's preamp tube related, but can't test as I have yet to find the box that contains my extra tubes.

As to cost, 2 GE are $1,298 including shipping, 2 Starke are $795 shipped, 2 dual 10" Tekton $1,320 shipped and 2 RSL are $898 shipped. Lots of choices.....
« Last Edit: July 11, 2023, 08:47:14 AM by Nick B »
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline GDHAL

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Re: opinions wanted on subwoofers
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2023, 01:51:41 AM »
Nick

While I will acknowledge that in general Goldenear make quality products and have good support as good as the Forcefield 3 may be in your system it would not be a simple plug and play process due to it's architecture.... 

According to the signature line the OP has JM Reynaud Voce Grande speakers. It's plug-and-play simplicity or lack thereof should be the same regardless of whichever sub he ends with.

In any case I'll bow out of this thread if you don't mind.

Best of luck @ Nick B, whatever you decide .  :)
GoldenEar Triton Reference (pair), Musical Fidelity M6si, Schiit Yggdrasil-OG-B, Oppo UDP-205, Emotiva ERC-3, LG OLED65C9PUA, Salamander Synergy Triple Unit SL20, Audeze LCD-X, GIK acoustic paneling
http://halr.x10.mx/other.html