Author Topic: What are your thoughts on Hi-Rez v. NOS Redbook?  (Read 14513 times)

Offline P.I.

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What are your thoughts on Hi-Rez v. NOS Redbook?
« on: February 20, 2023, 12:54:40 PM »
I know that digital audio is kind of an us and them topic.  I'm curious as to where all yuze gyze land on this topic.

I think a lot of this comes down to listening to music for pure enjoyment or getting ALL THERE IS out of the data.

Speak!
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline mresseguie

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Re: What are your thoughts on Hi-Rez v. NOS Redbook?
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2023, 02:40:53 PM »
Hiya, Dave!

I'll <sort of> answer your question.

Much of my music listening is streamed. I use streaming to discover new music, and to enjoy 'found' artists' music. When I want to really get into the music, I listen to physical media. I've been worrying less about critical listening and more about just enjoying the music. My favorite DAC is limited to no higher than 96kHz, so I usually listen to Redbook quality.

Daedalus Audio Apollos; Fritz Loudspeakers LS/5-R
SW1X NOS DAC III BAL/SPL; Holo Spring3 KTE
Don Sachs Model 2 preamp
Don Sachs dual mono 300b; Nuprime Evolution STA
Hapa loom
PI Audio UberBUSS, DigiBUSS, Uber-MiniBUS

Offline P.I.

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Re: What are your thoughts on Hi-Rez v. NOS Redbook?
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2023, 03:49:56 PM »
Hiya, Dave!

I'll <sort of> answer your question.

Much of my music listening is streamed. I use streaming to discover new music, and to enjoy 'found' artists' music. When I want to really get into the music, I listen to physical media. I've been worrying less about critical listening and more about just enjoying the music. My favorite DAC is limited to no higher than 96kHz, so I usually listen to Redbook quality.
Hi, Mike.  Good to see you.

I've got several DACs (mega modified HRT Pro, Schiit Bifrost & Yggdrasil) and I stil keep going back to my hot rodded Tranquility DAC because it just makes music.  That ancient TDA1543 with the mods Eric and I came up with are just my goto, could be my ego 😁.  Of course I have 75 year old ears, but so what?  I love me some toons.

Like TMAZZ says: It's all about the music.
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline GDHAL

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Re: What are your thoughts on Hi-Rez v. NOS Redbook?
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2023, 04:10:03 PM »
Hiya, Dave!

I'll <sort of> answer your question.

Much of my music listening is streamed. I use streaming to discover new music, and to enjoy 'found' artists' music. When I want to really get into the music, I listen to physical media. I've been worrying less about critical listening and more about just enjoying the music. My favorite DAC is limited to no higher than 96kHz, so I usually listen to Redbook quality.
Hi, Mike.  Good to see you.

I've got several DACs (mega modified HRT Pro, Schiit Bifrost & Yggdrasil) and I stil keep going back to my hot rodded Tranquility DAC because it just makes music.  That ancient TDA1543 with the mods Eric and I came up with are just my goto, could be my ego 😁.  Of course I have 75 year old ears, but so what?  I love me some toons.

Like TMAZZ says: It's all about the music.

What model Yggdrasil do you have?
GoldenEar Triton Reference (pair), Musical Fidelity M6si, Schiit Yggdrasil-OG-B, Oppo UDP-205, Emotiva ERC-3, LG OLED65C9PUA, Salamander Synergy Triple Unit SL20, Audeze LCD-X, GIK acoustic paneling
http://halr.x10.mx/other.html

Offline P.I.

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Re: What are your thoughts on Hi-Rez v. NOS Redbook?
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2023, 04:17:34 PM »

What model Yggdrasil do you have?
The original... not the + .  It is out on loan because it isn't my kind of thing and it deserves to be used.  It is a very good DAC.

I also have a Soekris 1021 R2R kit that I haven't had time to finish due to everything going on here.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2023, 04:26:01 PM by P.I. »
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline GDHAL

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Re: What are your thoughts on Hi-Rez v. NOS Redbook?
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2023, 04:54:41 PM »

What model Yggdrasil do you have?
The original... not the + .  It is out on loan because it isn't my kind of thing and it deserves to be used.  It is a very good DAC.

I also have a Soekris 1021 R2R kit that I haven't had time to finish due to everything going on here.

The "original" was upgraded years ago, before the +, og, mil, lim. If your serial number begins with "A", there was significant upgrade to "B" serial number.

Also, what input do you use?
GoldenEar Triton Reference (pair), Musical Fidelity M6si, Schiit Yggdrasil-OG-B, Oppo UDP-205, Emotiva ERC-3, LG OLED65C9PUA, Salamander Synergy Triple Unit SL20, Audeze LCD-X, GIK acoustic paneling
http://halr.x10.mx/other.html

Offline P.I.

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Re: What are your thoughts on Hi-Rez v. NOS Redbook?
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2023, 05:56:28 PM »

What model Yggdrasil do you have?
The original... not the + .  It is out on loan because it isn't my kind of thing and it deserves to be used.  It is a very good DAC.

I also have a Soekris 1021 R2R kit that I haven't had time to finish due to everything going on here.

The "original" was upgraded years ago, before the +, og, mil, lim. If your serial number begins with "A", there was significant upgrade to "B" serial number.

Also, what input do you use?
Well, since I build USB cables, that would be USB.  Optical sucks, AES is a flawed method, SPDIF over RCA doesn't sound right and I don't have a source with BNC.  My source is a modified MAC mini with a dB Audio Labs OS.  If it had an HDMI input I would be interested in trying that, but my friend Greg would be sad to give it back. :lol:
« Last Edit: February 20, 2023, 06:00:25 PM by P.I. »
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline GDHAL

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Re: What are your thoughts on Hi-Rez v. NOS Redbook?
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2023, 06:26:34 PM »
@P.I.

EDIT: I see you recognize what I stated and have corrected your post as far as where to place your text.

I'm assuming this is your last post: (you encapsulated a series of quotes inside other quotes so your reply does not standout).

Well, since I build USB cables, that would be USB.  Optical sucks, AES is a flawed method, SPDIF over RCA doesn't sound right and I don't have a source with BNC.  My source is a modified MAC mini with a dB Audio Labs OS.  If it had an HDMI input I would be interested in trying that, but my friend Greg would be sad to give it back.

I figured you would be using USB, given the "hot rodded" (whatever that means you had done, likely upgraded caps) Tranquility DAC.

O.K. I was just curious. Not wanting/looking to debate or be argumentative. But the "A" serial number Yggy you bought if original (2015?) likely didn't even have the Gen 5 USB card. So today's OG Yggy (which would be serial number B had you upgraded the A, i.e. the analog board itself was upgraded) also contains their proprietary Unison USB, supposedly the greatest thing since sliced bread as far as USB is concerned. Or so claim the Schiit fan club and those who have used it, reviews, etc.  I wouldn't know as I don't (no longer anyway) use USB.

To your statement that "AES is a flawed method", again, I prefer not to debate or be argumentative but suffice it to say I adamantly disagree and in fact believe it to be the **very best** of digital inputs one can use. Even better than I2S/HDMI, which by the way is not completely standardized.

I'd be interested in reading any citation you could post supporting your claim "AES is a flawed method". Prior to Unison USB, Mike Moffat himself claimed AES/EBU to be the best digital input, and not just for Yggy.

Optical too can be very good if done right so I personally wouldn't go as far as stating it "sucks". I use optical from my LG C9 to feed Yggy and it's entry level optical cable and still sounds grate. Glass optical is best (of optical) but who can use that from a practical perspective?

I use SPDIF RCA on my main transport Oppo UDP205 (99.9% of listening) only because it doesn't have AES output, and AES output from my ERC3 in the off chance I happen to listen to a CD (almost never).

Happy listening.  :)

Best.

Hal
« Last Edit: February 20, 2023, 08:00:41 PM by GDHAL »
GoldenEar Triton Reference (pair), Musical Fidelity M6si, Schiit Yggdrasil-OG-B, Oppo UDP-205, Emotiva ERC-3, LG OLED65C9PUA, Salamander Synergy Triple Unit SL20, Audeze LCD-X, GIK acoustic paneling
http://halr.x10.mx/other.html

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: What are your thoughts on Hi-Rez v. NOS Redbook?
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2023, 08:54:44 PM »
Speaking for myself, I can't reliably hear a difference between Redbook and hirez formats
with my current DAC, Auralic Vega. There are a lot of ways
D to A can wrong.
 You can loose what differentiates Redbook
from hirez in the DAC itself or in the following analog gain stage.
 I'm sure many more sources of degradation will occur to the members
of this site. I would like to believe that the differences between Redbook
and hirez sources is as large as that between CD at 1411kps and 320kps.
 In my system this difference is audible but subtle. So far I have not been able
hear a difference of this magnitude between hirez and Redbook. I blame the
DAC I use but I kind of quit chasing perfection a few years ago and settled for
good enough. No regrets.  :D
 Scotty

Offline P.I.

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Re: What are your thoughts on Hi-Rez v. NOS Redbook?
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2023, 09:02:50 PM »
Speaking for myself, I can't reliably hear a difference between Redbook and hirez formats
with my current DAC, Auralic Vega. There are a lot of ways
D to A can wrong.
 You can loose what differentiates Redbook
from hirez in the DAC itself or in the following analog gain stage.
 I'm sure many more sources of degradation will occur to the members
of this site. I would like to believe that the differences between Redbook
and hirez sources is as large as that between CD at 1411kps and 320kps.
 In my system this difference is audible but subtle. So far I have not been able
hear a difference of this magnitude between hirez and Redbook. I blame the
DAC I use but I kind of quit chasing perfection a few years ago and settled for
good enough. No regrets.  :D
 Scotty
My thing is that I have about 3TB of Redbook files!  I'd rather fight than switch!  :rofl:
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline GDHAL

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Re: What are your thoughts on Hi-Rez v. NOS Redbook?
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2023, 09:54:43 PM »
I'm happy to go directly to the point and spirit of this topic, having to do with 16/44.1 (i.e. Redbook) and resolutions greater than that (i.e hi rez).

My thoughts are I prefer hi res and believe it sounds better....not a world of difference, but rather subtle.

If you have an opportunity as I do to collect/have multiple sources from the same artist's show or even studio mix, then "look out cause here comes some free advice" (Grateful Dead term, Bobby) and "do yourself a favor" (Grateful Dead term, Jerry) and collect/have both.

Bottom line is they are *different* from an objective perspective. Whether or not you can hear a difference, your system is resolving enough to reproduce the difference, or you simply have a preference, is irrelevant.

Best.

Hal
GoldenEar Triton Reference (pair), Musical Fidelity M6si, Schiit Yggdrasil-OG-B, Oppo UDP-205, Emotiva ERC-3, LG OLED65C9PUA, Salamander Synergy Triple Unit SL20, Audeze LCD-X, GIK acoustic paneling
http://halr.x10.mx/other.html

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: What are your thoughts on Hi-Rez v. NOS Redbook?
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2023, 11:05:07 PM »
Now that you mention it I have about 1T of Redbook and 2.5T of Hirez recordings. I haven't chased after Hirez  duplicates of my Redbook music. I have purchased non-Hirez remasters of Redbook albums that have resulted in welcome and sometimes dramatic improvements in resolution and enjoyment. The only problem I have in seeking out Hirez duplicates of my existing Redbook recordings is assuming that positive differences I might hear are solely due to the differences in captured data and frequency response limits between Hirez and Redbook. It too damn easy to tweek the recording to sound subjectively better in the studio. I am also something of cheapskate.
 What is interesting to me that numerous recording artists have complained that the CD version of their
recording sounds like crap when compared against the the Hirez master and they weren't happy about the
fact that the recording to be released for public consumption didn't represent their artistic intentions.
 This makes me wonder just how much of their dissatisfaction is due to the "failings" of the Redbook medium versus failings at the studio level regarding final mastering decisions for CDs. 
 When I mentioned difficulty in hearing the difference between 1411kps and 320kps this was
in the context of a aural training course. It strikes me now that comparing the two formats with the same music selection is also a good test of system resolution which also includes the listeners hearing acuity,
which, to a degree, can be improved by ear training.
 The name of the online course escapes me at the moment, but I am sure that more than one such online  course is probably available at this point in time.
Scotty

Offline Folsom

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Re: What are your thoughts on Hi-Rez v. NOS Redbook?
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2023, 11:13:07 PM »
I'll let you know when I hear something better than my 1543 DAC. I'd like to hear some of the Abbas DAC's.

Sometimes high res sounds different but better is not the same thing.

Offline mresseguie

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Re: What are your thoughts on Hi-Rez v. NOS Redbook?
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2023, 11:41:54 PM »
Hiya, Dave!

I'll <sort of> answer your question.

Much of my music listening is streamed. I use streaming to discover new music, and to enjoy 'found' artists' music. When I want to really get into the music, I listen to physical media. I've been worrying less about critical listening and more about just enjoying the music. My favorite DAC is limited to no higher than 96kHz, so I usually listen to Redbook quality.
Hi, Mike.  Good to see you.

I've got several DACs (mega modified HRT Pro, Schiit Bifrost & Yggdrasil) and I stil keep going back to my hot rodded Tranquility DAC because it just makes music.  That ancient TDA1543 with the mods Eric and I came up with are just my goto, could be my ego 😁.  Of course I have 75 year old ears, but so what?  I love me some toons.

Like TMAZZ says: It's all about the music.

Dave,

I must agree with you about the Tranquility SE DAC. I credit it with turning me into a NOS DAC lover. However, my addictive personality has led me to buy too many DACs :duh, so I may end up letting go of my Tranquility SE this summer (to be determined).

My in-laws' health is precarious enough now that Melody and I may end up moving back to Taiwan to oversee their care. It's turning out to be a repeat of what happened with my parents before they passed away - only this time I'm not the person who's being devoured by the stress.

Daedalus Audio Apollos; Fritz Loudspeakers LS/5-R
SW1X NOS DAC III BAL/SPL; Holo Spring3 KTE
Don Sachs Model 2 preamp
Don Sachs dual mono 300b; Nuprime Evolution STA
Hapa loom
PI Audio UberBUSS, DigiBUSS, Uber-MiniBUS

Offline mresseguie

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Re: What are your thoughts on Hi-Rez v. NOS Redbook?
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2023, 11:48:10 PM »
I'll let you know when I hear something better than my 1543 DAC. I'd like to hear some of the Abbas DAC's.

Sometimes high res sounds different but better is not the same thing.

Jeremy,

Have you been following the Abbas thread on What's Best Audio?

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/abbas-dac-2-1-se.31754/#post-708536

Honestly, if I hadn't bought 2 DACs last year, I wouldn't hesitate to order a 3.21SE to compare against my SW1X DAC III+. Alas, even I have limits on how much excess gear I can buy.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2023, 11:50:08 PM by mresseguie »
Daedalus Audio Apollos; Fritz Loudspeakers LS/5-R
SW1X NOS DAC III BAL/SPL; Holo Spring3 KTE
Don Sachs Model 2 preamp
Don Sachs dual mono 300b; Nuprime Evolution STA
Hapa loom
PI Audio UberBUSS, DigiBUSS, Uber-MiniBUS