Author Topic: Stereo Subs Anyone?  (Read 16698 times)

Offline GDHAL

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2023, 01:49:52 PM »
Thanks Chuck, the system only has to make 2 people happy, me and my wife. That it satisfied a
 third person is pure gravy. Especially considering you're a picky cuss. 😆
Scotty

That is true on all accounts.   :D
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Offline GDHAL

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2023, 01:53:35 PM »
Thanks Chuck, the system only has to make 2 people happy, me and my wife. That it satisfied a
 third person is pure gravy. Especially considering you're a picky cuss. 😆
Scotty

  I recall sitting right next to the sub and heard nothing from it. Well done

charles

Charles, sitting right next to a sub may not be the optimal way to judge it's performance. Low frequencies take many feet for the waveform to fully propagate/develop.

Best.

Hal
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Offline _Scotty_

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2023, 07:53:48 PM »
At the time Charles was completely inside the zone of cancellation and the woofer output volume was quite
low,only enough output to cancel out the bass coming from the front. The rear woofers are supposed to contribute next to nothing to the perceived volume of the bass at the listening position. If you can localize them or realize that they are back there at all they set for too high an output or crossed over too high or both.
 The object here is that you shouldn't know they are there and operating at all unless they are turned off
while listening to a passage of music. Then you hear the problems they were solving.
 I haven't posted this link to a deep dive on the use of multiple subs to optimize low frequency response
in listening rooms in a while. This is a link to the PHD Thesis of Adrian Celestinos.
 From the thesis "The scope of the thesis and the research concerns itself with the performance of loud-speakers in rooms at low frequencies. The research concentrates on the improvement of the sound distribution in the room produced by loudspeakers at low frequencies.The work focuses on seeing the problem as an acoustic problem in the time domain."
https://vbn.aau.dk/ws/portalfiles/portal/12831869/AC-phd.pdf
 Since I first ran across his doctoral thesis it appears that he has done well and is now working for Samsung
as senior DSP engineer, cool. https://www.aes.org/events/139/presenters/?ID=3714
Scotty

Offline GDHAL

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2023, 05:27:35 AM »
Hi _scotty_

I have no reason to doubt you have an amazing sounding system, and frankly I'd love to hear it at some point assuming that it's logistically possible and you're up for company.

You write very intelligently and informatively. And you've also gotten Charles to write how grate your system sounds  :)

You're also posting links from people with phds and thesis data on the subject, so I'm personally in no position to question that type of authority.

To your point about the subtleties of the sub woofer so as to not draw unnecessary attention to itself , that too is very very true.

But this is the reason that I'm stating that it's not so simple to implement. I'm sure you'll agree you have two basic components to the matter ( some other things too but the two basic major ones) which are your crossover frequency (where the sub begins to kick in) and the output level setting.

The sub shouldn't be noticable (meaning shouldn't draw unnecessary attention to itself) when it isn't needed, meaning it isn't being called for by the source content of the recording.

On the other hand, setting the subs in such a subtle manner has to be balanced with the fact that there is plenty of music content that demands the use of subs in all of its glorious splendor.

For example, play (assuming you have access to this music) mickey hart - The Gates of Dafos - vinyl remaster 1644.

When played at a proper decibel level , say 90 DB or above, your subs should essentially emit such power, that it now gives you an opportunity to check if there are any unwanted resonances in the room. In other words, the bass and subbass is anything but subtle. The sound would certainly be penetrating walls.

Now what I don't know (have never tried it) is if using four subs in total (two in the rear and two in the front) means that the two that are in the rear and out of phase (as you suggested) firing towards the front subs is going to result in an accurate representation of how that particular song track should sound.

I suppose this is one of those cases where life is not being in the "know", it's being in the "mystery".

Best.

Hal
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Offline jimbones

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2023, 01:09:15 PM »
Thanks Chuck, the system only has to make 2 people happy, me and my wife. That it satisfied a
 third person is pure gravy. Especially considering you're a picky cuss. 😆
Scotty

  I recall sitting right next to the sub and heard nothing from it. Well done

charles

Charles, sitting right next to a sub may not be the optimal way to judge it's performance. Low frequencies take many feet for the waveform to fully propagate/develop.

Best.

Hal

Not according to Paul McGowan. I say dont rule anything out. Try it, if it doesnt work, change it.

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Offline rollo

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2023, 09:52:40 AM »
Thanks Chuck, the system only has to make 2 people happy, me and my wife. That it satisfied a
 third person is pure gravy. Especially considering you're a picky cuss. 😆
Scotty

  I recall sitting right next to the sub and heard nothing from it. Well done

charles

Charles, sitting right next to a sub may not be the optimal way to judge it's performance. Low frequencies take many feet for the waveform to fully propagate/develop.

Best.

Hal


 My comment was about that I did NOT hear it being so close was the point.  That is the trophy


charles
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Offline GDHAL

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2023, 10:39:34 AM »

Not according to Paul McGowan. I say dont rule anything out. Try it, if it doesnt work, change it.

I've seen, as we all have, a number of PS Audio (a.k.a. our beloved Paul McGowan) youtube videos. I think he's usually correct. I recently watched him doing a video about room treatments, and I think (not sure though) it was related to his latest speakers Aspen FR20.  Or it could of had something to do with his listening room with the iconic Genesis speakers. Anyway, he talked about the front wall. And BTW, he went on for a minute or two to clarify that some folks refer to it as the back wall but clarified that he meant by the front wall is the wall behind the speakers (i.e. behind the way the drivers are facing/firing). He was adamant to state that no room treatment should be applied to that area. Seriously? I mean, maybe if your room is professionally designed where the wall itself is an absorber/diffuser combo perhaps but in the typical home environment? His statement in that regard cannot be true. I've had two acoustic engineers at my place, and one virtually - courtesy of GIK acoustics - all of whom claimed I needed absorption behind (front wall) my speakers. 

Moral of the story, as with anything else, consider the information with a grain of salt.

Let's see with our heart
These things our eyes have seen
And know the truth must still
Lie somewhere in between


Blues For Allah
Lyrics: Robert Hunter
Music: Jerry Garcia
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Offline rollo

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2023, 01:08:22 PM »
  There seems to be a pair of Ryhmic Subs knocking at the door. FS12G that is. Pull the trigger do not pull the trigger.

charles
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Offline James Edward

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2023, 02:06:36 PM »
Just pulled the trigger on a second Hsu ULS 15 Mk2. Ordered Belden 12 gauge 2 conductor to feed each one. The only issue I have, and not a biggie, is getting power to it in an unobtrusive manner. System is in my living room, so I’m going to try an ‘under carpet’ power cord. I have a pretty good way to conceal the speaker cable, but I don’t want the A/C cord running parallel to it.
Someone here posted some flat power cables from Amazon; I’m going to try one of those, but if the sub gets here first, oh well, aesthetics can wait- I have plenty of orange extension cords.
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Offline GDHAL

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2023, 04:57:31 PM »
Just pulled the trigger on a second Hsu ULS 15 Mk2. Ordered Belden 12 gauge 2 conductor to feed each one. The only issue I have, and not a biggie, is getting power to it in an unobtrusive manner. System is in my living room, so I’m going to try an ‘under carpet’ power cord. I have a pretty good way to conceal the speaker cable, but I don’t want the A/C cord running parallel to it.
Someone here posted some flat power cables from Amazon; I’m going to try one of those, but if the sub gets here first, oh well, aesthetics can wait- I have plenty of orange extension cords.

Best of luck with your new (second) sub, James.  :)

Besides the logistics of the power cord, I imagine you may run into challenges integrating the sub "seamlessly" into the rest of the system. It can be challenging in a good way though.  :)
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Offline Nick B

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2023, 06:47:38 PM »
Just pulled the trigger on a second Hsu ULS 15 Mk2. Ordered Belden 12 gauge 2 conductor to feed each one. The only issue I have, and not a biggie, is getting power to it in an unobtrusive manner. System is in my living room, so I’m going to try an ‘under carpet’ power cord. I have a pretty good way to conceal the speaker cable, but I don’t want the A/C cord running parallel to it.
Someone here posted some flat power cables from Amazon; I’m going to try one of those, but if the sub gets here first, oh well, aesthetics can wait- I have plenty of orange extension cords.

Jim,

I was going to suggest one of those flat cables. Let us know how it works out

Nick
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Offline GDHAL

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2023, 09:35:07 AM »
Just pulled the trigger on a second Hsu ULS 15 Mk2. Ordered Belden 12 gauge 2 conductor to feed each one. The only issue I have, and not a biggie, is getting power to it in an unobtrusive manner. System is in my living room, so I’m going to try an ‘under carpet’ power cord. I have a pretty good way to conceal the speaker cable, but I don’t want the A/C cord running parallel to it.
Someone here posted some flat power cables from Amazon; I’m going to try one of those, but if the sub gets here first, oh well, aesthetics can wait- I have plenty of orange extension cords.

BTW, running parallel is wise to avoid, but not to be obsessed over either, especially if the distance between the cables is > 1ft and/or one of the cables has rfi/emi shielding.
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Offline James Edward

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2023, 01:35:10 PM »
Just pulled the trigger on a second Hsu ULS 15 Mk2. Ordered Belden 12 gauge 2 conductor to feed each one. The only issue I have, and not a biggie, is getting power to it in an unobtrusive manner. System is in my living room, so I’m going to try an ‘under carpet’ power cord. I have a pretty good way to conceal the speaker cable, but I don’t want the A/C cord running parallel to it.
Someone here posted some flat power cables from Amazon; I’m going to try one of those, but if the sub gets here first, oh well, aesthetics can wait- I have plenty of orange extension cords.

BTW, running parallel is wise to avoid, but not to be obsessed over either, especially if the distance between the cables is > 1ft and/or one of the cables has rfi/emi shielding.
Yeah, my speaker cable to the Spatials is not shielded, nor is the speaker cable I will be running to each sub, and I don’t have a foot to spare. The flat cable will allow me the distance I need under the rug. I’m a bit fanatical about noise/hum, etc.- no chargers, dimmers, LED’s, allowed near the system. I’m all incandescent too- a different topic for a different day, but I loathe LED and fluorescent lighting.
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Offline P.I.

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2023, 01:46:09 PM »
I’m a bit fanatical about noise/hum, etc.- no chargers, dimmers, LED’s, allowed near the system. I’m all incandescent too- a different topic for a different day, but I loathe LED and fluorescent lighting.

As well you should be.  LED, fluorescent, quartz lighting are nothing but little radio stations.  When I was designing recording studios, I spec'd the lighting to be in banks of lights instead of using stage dimmers which are still noisy.

Low light - first bank
Medium light add bank #2
Bright lighting - Add bank #3
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Offline James Edward

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2023, 06:09:54 AM »
So… Some details- The second sub is in place and hooked up. I’m using Belden 12 gauge for wire. I haven’t gotten the flat power cord yet, but I’ve been monitoring for noise or hum, neither of which has surfaced. I quite literally have an extension cord running alongside the main speaker wire and sub wire, with zero noise. If I put my ear up to the tweeter at full volume I hear a bit, but I’ve heard much worse in my own system and in others. At normal ‘high volume’ there is no noise.

I’m still dialing them in- Hsu phone help is very good, patient and knowledgeable. I’ve had several calls just going over ‘what ifs’ and various setting scenarios. There’s volume, two EQ settings, Q, phase; with two subs there seems to be more interaction both room wise and with each other. Having an asymmetrical room doesn’t help matters.

So far though, so good. My main goal, having it sound like there are no subs, is being achieved.


Luxman L- 590 AX MK2
Esoteric K-07X
Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit SB
Audience Au24SE
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Stereo Hsu ULS-15 Mk2
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