Author Topic: Stereo Subs Anyone?  (Read 16699 times)

Offline James Edward

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Stereo Subs Anyone?
« on: January 14, 2023, 02:57:49 PM »
I’m really enjoying what I’m hearing from my system- I’ve got one sub now, and giving serious thought to adding a second. Any thoughts one way or the other? As my title implies, they’re both going up front.
I was never able to make a large set of speakers deliver tight bass- placement and problematic room caused various booming that I could not tame. That’s why subs and open baffle speakers. Q control on the sub really seems to tighten things up.
A single sub is serving me pretty well- overall great sound but a few holes/nulls as I move around the house.
Equipment list below if it helps.
Jim
PS- Just played a bunch of 12” 45 RPM records- man they sound great.
Luxman L- 590 AX MK2
Esoteric K-07X
Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit SB
Audience Au24SE
PI Cat6
Spatial Audio M3 Turbo S
Stereo Hsu ULS-15 Mk2
Supra Classic 6.0

Offline GDHAL

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2023, 03:17:00 PM »
For optimal sound, subs are always supposed to be used in pairs (2, 4, etc.).
GoldenEar Triton Reference (pair), Musical Fidelity M6si, Schiit Yggdrasil-OG-B, Oppo UDP-205, Emotiva ERC-3, LG OLED65C9PUA, Salamander Synergy Triple Unit SL20, Audeze LCD-X, GIK acoustic paneling
http://halr.x10.mx/other.html

Offline James Edward

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2023, 03:25:52 PM »
Sounds good- no pun intended to
Luxman L- 590 AX MK2
Esoteric K-07X
Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit SB
Audience Au24SE
PI Cat6
Spatial Audio M3 Turbo S
Stereo Hsu ULS-15 Mk2
Supra Classic 6.0

Offline rollo

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2023, 01:17:18 PM »
+1 on the pair. Unless it has DSP. A big help. I like the Golden Ear Sub with DSP as a single sub or Rythmic with no  DSP in a pair.


charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm Industries - Aqua Acoustic, Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm - Kuzma - QLN - Audio Hungary Qualiton - Fritz speakers -Gigawatt -Vinnie Rossi,TWL, Swiss Cables, Merason DAC.

Offline Folsom

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2023, 02:15:34 PM »
At least two...

Offline BobM

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2023, 02:52:59 PM »
I had one for the longest time, but man things really changed for the better when I added a second one.
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Offline HAL

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2023, 03:25:03 PM »
Stereo here, but always thought a SWARM sub setup would be interesting to try.

Heard that at RMAF a few times with really good results.

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2023, 04:13:22 PM »
Four is better than two😁
You may also get a much flatter bass response if the two in back are 180° out of phase
with the front two.

Offline GDHAL

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2023, 05:04:59 PM »
Four is better than two😁
You may also get a much flatter bass response if the two in back are 180° out of phase
with the front two.

That is an interesting point , and there is truth behind it. Here is a relatively recent article on the subject of out of phase speakers when on the opposite side of the room:
https://boomspeaker.com/subwoofer-phase-0-or-180/

The thing is, in my experience, it's more trouble and problematic to achieve than it seems. In this case, the "it's" I'm referring to is when you opt to fire speakers (subs or not) towards/at each other.

In my opinion,  that doesn't work well for two channel stereo listening. Surround sound, perhaps.

Correctly implementing a sub with other speakers is difficult on its own. Having them fire towards one another just makes an already difficult task even more difficult, if the end goal is to achieve optimum sound quality.

Besides that , if you're going to spend on four quality subs , you're probably better off spending on two subs and then spending the additional money on room treatments.

Best.

Hal
« Last Edit: January 31, 2023, 05:10:21 PM by GDHAL »
GoldenEar Triton Reference (pair), Musical Fidelity M6si, Schiit Yggdrasil-OG-B, Oppo UDP-205, Emotiva ERC-3, LG OLED65C9PUA, Salamander Synergy Triple Unit SL20, Audeze LCD-X, GIK acoustic paneling
http://halr.x10.mx/other.html

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2023, 07:34:50 PM »
The article needlessly complicates the subject. The speed of sound is about 1,100/sec.
Roughly speaking a sound wave travels about 1ft/milli-second. Ideally your receiver would have more than
30 milli-seconds of total delay available. This would allow you to cancel the bass sound wave
before it could hit the back wall of most listening rooms. If you can reduce this primary
reflection's amplitude sufficiently you can achieve far flatter bass frequency response
at the listening position than is normally achieved by any other stratagem that I am aware of.
 Even if you don't have a receiver with delay, a worthwhile improvement can be had
by had reversing the phase of the sub or subs behind your listening position.
 If you have reduced the magnitude of the reflected bass from the wall behind your listening position
you should hear a marked improvement in the spaciousness of the sound stage
and an improvement in the stereo image. The bass should also have a quite noticeable reduction in bloat and boominess.
 I run two Rythmik L12 subs in reverse phase and a QSC DSP 30 digital delay set for 15 milli-seconds of delay.
Scotty

Offline GDHAL

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2023, 04:58:17 AM »
"The speed of sound is about 1,100/sec.
Roughly speaking a sound wave travels about 1ft/milli-second." - _Scotty_

Assuming that the 1100 in your quote is meant to represent feet then this would be true. The operative word there is roughly because the speed of sound is a variable depending on temperature and other environmental variables.

I'm on the road now and cannot give this thread (my response) the attention perhaps it deserves but those two equations are basically indicating the same thing. First you're using the word " sound " and then "sound wave"... they're the same thing, traveling at the same speed.

"If you can reduce this primary
reflection's amplitude sufficiently you can achieve far flatter bass frequency response
at the listening position than is normally achieved by any other stratagem that I am aware of." _Scoty_

I did previously write that you have an interesting point and there is truth behind it.

All I'm saying is it's a lot easier to put it on paper or make a post here in the form thread than to actually implement it  (four subs two of which are facing the other two) for the betterment of sound. If you've achieved that , then that's terrific and kudus to you.

For the type of music that I listen to and my preferences, I personally would never use that arrangement. I'm a two channel, two speaker person (in my case this two speakers have built-in subs). Both speakers are firing in front of me.

I never cared to listen to anything recorded where sound is coming from above me, behind me , to the sides of me , or from any other place than the front of me.

And I believe that proper room treatments are essential to achieving good frequency response and that would be true regardless of however many speakers you use and where you're placing them.

The answer to the ops question though appears that  we all universally agree. Get another sub for a total of two. Or, get another three subs for a total of four. The placement of those subs becomes a completely different issue, and technically outside of the scope of the ops question.

Best.

Hal

GoldenEar Triton Reference (pair), Musical Fidelity M6si, Schiit Yggdrasil-OG-B, Oppo UDP-205, Emotiva ERC-3, LG OLED65C9PUA, Salamander Synergy Triple Unit SL20, Audeze LCD-X, GIK acoustic paneling
http://halr.x10.mx/other.html

Offline HAL

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2023, 06:09:00 AM »
I helped a person with a 4 sub setup.  The rear subs had to be closer to the listening position and was causing cancellation.  I used the dspMusik 2x8 DSP XO and added time delay to the rear channels.  After getting everything dialed it his comment was "It now sounds better than the pipe organ at my church" It had bass response after the time delay at the listening position.  Not that hard to setup. 

Offline rollo

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2023, 09:28:11 AM »
Four is better than two😁
You may also get a much flatter bass response if the two in back are 180° out of phase
with the front two.

   I remember your sub set up. The best I have heard in a Home.

charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm Industries - Aqua Acoustic, Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm - Kuzma - QLN - Audio Hungary Qualiton - Fritz speakers -Gigawatt -Vinnie Rossi,TWL, Swiss Cables, Merason DAC.

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2023, 10:16:39 AM »
Thanks Chuck, the system only has to make 2 people happy, me and my wife. That it satisfied a
 third person is pure gravy. Especially considering you're a picky cuss. 😆
Scotty


Offline rollo

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Re: Stereo Subs Anyone?
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2023, 11:04:21 AM »
Thanks Chuck, the system only has to make 2 people happy, me and my wife. That it satisfied a
 third person is pure gravy. Especially considering you're a picky cuss. 😆
Scotty

  I recall sitting right next to the sub and heard nothing from it. Well done

charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm Industries - Aqua Acoustic, Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm - Kuzma - QLN - Audio Hungary Qualiton - Fritz speakers -Gigawatt -Vinnie Rossi,TWL, Swiss Cables, Merason DAC.