Author Topic: Take The Challenge  (Read 4235 times)

Offline rollo

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Take The Challenge
« on: January 05, 2023, 12:18:24 PM »
   So think your system sounds natural and good to you. Try hitting a real cymbal in your room. Play Guitar, horn,violin or drum in your room. What do you think now ?  :duh :thumb:


charles
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Offline ejk

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Re: Take The Challenge
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2023, 12:31:49 PM »
   So think your system sounds natural and good to you. Try hitting a real cymbal in your room. Play Guitar, horn,violin or drum in your room. What do you think now ?  :duh :thumb:


charles

Good idea. No instruments in my home. Maybe I will order some Tupperware and see how those sound. Actually, I remember a few years back being at Bob M's house and I asked him a similar question while we were listening to some piano music and being that he is a musician if his speakers were actually portraying piano correctly and he said yes. I don't remember if he had a piano in the basement though.

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Offline rollo

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Re: Take The Challenge
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2023, 12:56:05 PM »
  Have a Musician friend ? Make Clavis by hitting wood on wood. We come close some closer but still not real.


charles
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Offline GDHAL

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Re: Take The Challenge
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2023, 12:59:51 PM »
   So think your system sounds natural and good to you. Try hitting a real cymbal in your room. Play Guitar, horn,violin or drum in your room. What do you think now ?  :duh :thumb:


charles

I've only played in my audio system room with my ukulele, and my daughter's played with her flute. Sounds "real", "true", "authentic", etc. to my ears. I don't have access to other instruments. Would welcome an opportunity to experiment that way (perhaps with the exception of a full drum set, do to space limitations) as I agree in principal it presents a terrific data point.
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Offline _Scotty_

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Re: Take The Challenge
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2023, 02:22:24 PM »
I've never heard a system reproducing a single instrument let alone a symphony orchestra
or pipe organ that could mistaken for the real thing. I heard systems that I felt are faithful to
music with no egregious errors but these have been few and far in between others
that failed miserably.
 Real instruments can be capable of wide dynamic range
and can project serious acoustic power into the room. A single saxophone
is a case in point. A full size grand piano in your listening room playing a selection from Tchaikovsky or Liszt
also springs to mind.
  Scotty


 

Offline GDHAL

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Re: Take The Challenge
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2023, 03:19:38 PM »
I've never heard a system reproducing a single instrument let alone a symphony orchestra
or pipe organ that could mistaken for the real thing. ......

Nor I. That's because it's impossible. Real is real. A recorded reproduction of what was real at a previous point in time isn't. But, as the Grateful Dead sing, "If this ain't the real thing, then it's close enough to pretend".

I heard systems that I felt are faithful to music with no egregious errors but these have been few and far in between others
that failed miserably......

Agreed. Me too.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

EDIT: Where I posted previously in this thread "I've only played in my audio system room with my ukulele, and my daughter's played with her flute. Sounds "real", "true", "authentic", etc. to my ears." that is with respect to the instruments themselves, having heard a ukulele and flute a number of times in places other than my audio system room. 

« Last Edit: January 05, 2023, 03:44:42 PM by GDHAL »
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Offline ejk

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Re: Take The Challenge
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2023, 04:23:41 PM »
I've never heard a system reproducing a single instrument let alone a symphony orchestra
or pipe organ that could mistaken for the real thing. ......

Nor I. That's because it's impossible. Real is real. A recorded reproduction of what was real at a previous point in time isn't. But, as the Grateful Dead sing, "If this ain't the real thing, then it's close enough to pretend".

I heard systems that I felt are faithful to music with no egregious errors but these have been few and far in between others
that failed miserably......

Agreed. Me too.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

EDIT: Where I posted previously in this thread "I've only played in my audio system room with my ukulele, and my daughter's played with her flute. Sounds "real", "true", "authentic", etc. to my ears." that is with respect to the instruments themselves, having heard a ukulele and flute a number of times in places other than my audio system room. 



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Offline TopRound‎

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Re: Take The Challenge
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2023, 07:01:48 PM »
Do any of us think our systems are that real?
maybe only the few that never went to a live show
or live in tic tok world
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Offline TopRound‎

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Re: Take The Challenge
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2023, 07:03:03 PM »
But kudos to charlie for trying to get some bandwidth going :thumb:
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Offline rollo

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Re: Take The Challenge
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2023, 08:31:59 AM »
Do any of us think our systems are that real?
maybe only the few that never went to a live show
or live in tic tok world

   No. However we can get that toe tapping wanna dance and sing along. We can get emotional impact with tonality and harmonics. We cannot get the sheer dynamic as Scotty says of a full Orchestra. However we can tell if a recording or component can offer scale which makes the illusion closer.
   I remember going to Carnegie Hall to hear full Orchestra play. When I got home I put the same piece by same Orchestra. I was so fucken disappointed.
   Anyway if your system hits you in the heart with emotion you are there Buddies.


charles
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Offline TopRound‎

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Re: Take The Challenge
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2023, 05:16:29 PM »
I get goosebumps in my car...
and live....well live is live....so much going on...have dinner a few drinks...check out the girls
its a totally different experience.....
System: Nothing....gave it all up, but building a few things for my kids...vinyl, tubes and Gan Fet!

Offline steve

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Re: Take The Challenge
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2023, 04:15:44 PM »
It is true that the recording venue acoustics is different than our venue. We must also remember that the recording equipment is ~50% of the source/instrument to playback/ear "systems". With some selections, it is quite apparent that recordings have improved over the decades. The extreme frequency ranges are the toughest to deal with, of course. I am quite happy with the realism of each instrument.

I have a couple of instruments either here or close by that I sometimes use. The question I have is, is it feasible
to custom manufacture certain parts for use in a typical home.

I do have a contact or two, top minds who helped. Included is a NASA sub contractor, another who at one time
performed some secret scientific research for the Feds, a FermiLab/CERN/professor. Besides advice, recommending certain parts for audio, that I personally tested, that were actually accurate. (Audio Research also used a part or two
as well.) Sure saved me a lot of money and time although I still have lots of parts that failed to meet standards.

Cheers

steve
« Last Edit: January 10, 2023, 06:32:03 AM by steve »
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Offline rollo

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Re: Take The Challenge
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2023, 09:17:32 AM »
   Interesting Steve. Good to see you back.

charles
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Offline steve

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Re: Take The Challenge
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2023, 04:19:58 PM »
   Interesting Steve. Good to see you back.

charles

Thanks Charles. Last few weeks have had a tooth, maybe two, problem. Tooth coming out tuesday.

Just another thought or two. When looking at an op chip, one sees a vcc+ and vcc-. Just one supply
voltage for both left and right channels. Would rather see 10 pins with vcc supply for each channel.

Inside that chip are resistors, transistors, leads/traces etc. We know that magnetic fields are created and with
close proximity how much intermixing of fields occur? Audio is not simply "on" and "off" states as is digital, computers.

One normally thinks of RF frequencies as transmitting frequencies, but the frequency is much lower.

I performed a simple experiment decades ago with two ~6" long parallel wires, X and Y, ~1/2" or 5/8" apart, with a signal applied through X wire to ground, and a few ma of signal current. The Y wire has one end grounded, and a fairly high impedance resistor at the other end to ground. A scope probe was attached to ground and Y wire a the resistor end.

The capacitance between one wire to the other was ~1pf, extremely low. Even a 2khz signal was signal coupling from X to Y wire. I am trying to remember how many db down, but I think it was somewhere around -60db from the fundamental. I am not surprised that some companies use discrete parts in analog sections of DACs, preamplifiers, amplifiers, sources.

Imagine what occurs with long leads within vacuum tube designs. Bundles look nice, but.... we know what happens to
AC filament wires near signal wires. Of course, much much more is involved when designing, but just this one aspect that seemed interesting to  me.

cheers

steve

« Last Edit: January 17, 2023, 11:44:09 AM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers

Offline rollo

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Re: Take The Challenge
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2023, 11:48:45 AM »
  You have a great mind for this stuff. Over my head however interesting. It seems it can never end. Maybe us non engineers are lucky in a way. Less to think about.

charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
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