Author Topic: The Old Days  (Read 10544 times)

Online dflee

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The Old Days
« on: September 04, 2022, 03:44:45 PM »
My first audiophile grade speaker was Bang and Olufsen M4.
I got them from a small audio shop run by Valparaiso University in my home town. One of the selling points and something ingrained was I could stand in front of one speaker and clearly hear the other side playing. That meant no matter where in the room I could hear both right and left channels clearly. Today there is the "sweet spot" and if you sit in just the right place and just the right height and put your head in just the right position you hear nirvana (not the band). I won't disagree that sound stage and all the other euphemisms may be better but not all of us have a stereo for just themselves. Besides isn't music to be shared and enjoyed by all in the room? When did things change? Is it the equipment that made us listen differently or is it equipment isn't made like that anymore?

Don
« Last Edit: September 05, 2022, 08:13:24 AM by dflee »
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Offline Folsom

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Re: The Old Days
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2022, 03:05:26 PM »
You won't find me in the sweetspot all the time. I think a good stereo sounds nice everywhere. But you get that last 5-10% in the sweetspot.

Offline Nick B

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Re: The Old Days
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2022, 05:34:43 PM »
My first audiophile grade speaker was Bang and Olufsen M4.
I got them from a small audio shop run by Valparaiso University in my home town. One of the selling points and something ingrained was I could stand in front of one speaker and clearly hear the other side playing. That meant no matter where in the room I could hear both right and left channels clearly. Today there is the "sweet spot" and if you sit in just the right place and just the right height and put your head in just the right position you hear nirvana (not the band). I won't disagree that sound stage and all the other euphemisms may be better but not all of us have a stereo for just themselves. Besides isn't music to be shared and enjoyed by all in the room? When did things change? Is it the equipment that made us listen differently or is it equipment isn't made like that anymore?

Don

Over twenty years ago, I had Shahinian Diapasons and their omnidirectional design gave me lots of freedom to move around….and it was an excellent speaker and fun to listen to. In my situation…single with the house to myself… I don’t mind being locked into a small sweet spot. A couple of years ago, I looked into Ohm speakers, but couldn’t pull the trigger due to lack of comments by high end users.
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Offline James Edward

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Re: The Old Days
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2022, 03:42:20 PM »
I currently have Spatial Audio M3 Turbo S speakers; no baffle, so a fair amount of sound emanates from the rear of the speaker.
This gives a wider sound when not sitting locked into a listening chair- I do that only about 10% of the time; so I empathize…
Back in the day I think maybe (?) we were more into tonality… Magazines at some point began to emphasize soundstage and depth as holy grails- maybe manufacturers toed the line to garner better reviews.
I still prefer tonality over soundstage as my preference- my system is in my living room and I don’t sit in my listening chair as often as I’d like, but I do always have it on as I move about.
Having said that, I do get a thrill out of a system that does the image thing really well. CES 2008- Tropos Audio- I kept going back to their room- you’d think if you threw a tennis ball between the speakers it would bounce back- I’ve never before or since heard such a solid image.
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Offline Nick B

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Re: The Old Days
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2022, 04:01:15 PM »
I currently have Spatial Audio M3 Turbo S speakers; no baffle, so a fair amount of sound emanates from the rear of the speaker.
This gives a wider sound when not sitting locked into a listening chair- I do that only about 10% of the time; so I empathize…
Back in the day I think maybe (?) we were more into tonality… Magazines at some point began to emphasize soundstage and depth as holy grails- maybe manufacturers toed the line to garner better reviews.
I still prefer tonality over soundstage as my preference- my system is in my living room and I don’t sit in my listening chair as often as I’d like, but I do always have it on as I move about.
Having said that, I do get a thrill out of a system that does the image thing really well. CES 2008- Tropos Audio- I kept going back to their room- you’d think if you threw a tennis ball between the speakers it would bounce back- I’ve never before or since heard such a solid image.

I did a search on Tropos, but couldn’t find very much. Here’s a link on one of their models.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/tropos-audio-audio-dreams--455848793514225953/
I’ll agree with you as to the value of tonality. Over the years, I’ve become spoiled and want the whole package… Imaging, soundstage, resolution, black background etc.
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Online dflee

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Re: The Old Days
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2022, 06:53:09 PM »
Since my room will never be able to be set up properly as to what everyone says, I'll stick with my tonality and good sound over that perfect placement. I've played around somewhat with speaker placement and will enjoy what I got for what I got.

Don
"Enjoy pleasure, not because it is fleeting, but because it exists at all." Sacrament, Clive Barker.

Offline rollo

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Re: The Old Days
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2022, 10:44:31 AM »
  It is tonality and harmonic structure over the illusion. However when one gets both there is no comparison. We can enjoy the sound from anywhere it comes. The hard to get life like illusion is the hard part. If you can get those speakers to disappear you got it.

charles
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Offline ejk

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Re: The Old Days
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2022, 11:12:15 AM »
  It is tonality and harmonic structure over the illusion. However when one gets both there is no comparison. We can enjoy the sound from anywhere it comes. The hard to get life like illusion is the hard part. If you can get those speakers to disappear you got it.

charles

My Zu's and AP's are standing next to each other and they both disappear. I think the tubes in both amps are finally broken in, so I don't know if that helps
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Offline ejk

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Re: The Old Days
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2022, 07:33:07 AM »
  It is tonality and harmonic structure over the illusion. However when one gets both there is no comparison. We can enjoy the sound from anywhere it comes. The hard to get life like illusion is the hard part. If you can get those speakers to disappear you got it.

charles

My Zu's and AP's are standing next to each other and they both disappear. I think the tubes in both amps are finally broken in, so I don't know if that helps

Has it been just recently that you got them to disappear, or has it been for a long time?

cheers

steve

Who knows could be psycho acoustics but either way the system sounds great
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Offline steve

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Re: The Old Days
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2022, 07:38:43 AM »
  It is tonality and harmonic structure over the illusion. However when one gets both there is no comparison. We can enjoy the sound from anywhere it comes. The hard to get life like illusion is the hard part. If you can get those speakers to disappear you got it.

charles

My Zu's and AP's are standing next to each other and they both disappear. I think the tubes in both amps are finally broken in, so I don't know if that helps

Has it been just recently that you got them to disappear, or has it been for a long time?

cheers

steve

Who knows could be psycho acoustics but either way the system sounds great

I doubt phycho acoustics. You don't remember with the
previous tubes? Are the amps, or something else new  in your stereo?

cheers

steve
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 08:56:40 AM by steve »
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Offline ejk

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Re: The Old Days
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2022, 07:46:25 AM »
No. Same tubes. Only new add is the Orchard Audio amp which was purchases after the comment. And still my speakers disappear.
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Offline steve

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Re: The Old Days
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2022, 08:02:57 AM »
No. Same tubes. Only new add is the Orchard Audio amp which was purchases after the comment. And still my speakers disappear.

Ah, glad. I was just checking as you seemed rather unsure back in Nov with the tubes breaking in.

cheers and all the best.

steve
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 08:36:28 AM by steve »
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Offline TopRound‎

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Re: The Old Days
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2022, 02:58:15 PM »
I think a well designed set of speakers setup correctly should disappear.
I remember my Virgo's they were a pain to setup, lots of experimentation, and they ended up where you wouldn't think they should.
But sit in the seat and not only the speakers but the walls disappeared, like putting your head under water, an immersive event.
I like those type of setups, you really can drift away and get up in the music, as you become part of the soundscape
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Offline GDHAL

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Re: The Old Days
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2022, 03:14:56 PM »
Blindfold me I'm *any* room playing recorded music via *any* gear. I will walk directly at one of the speakers. 100 out of 100 times.

Now, whether or not speakers *should* disappear is another matter.

Best.

Hal

I think a well designed set of speakers setup correctly should disappear.
I remember my Virgo's they were a pain to setup, lots of experimentation, and they ended up where you wouldn't think they should.
But sit in the seat and not only the speakers but the walls disappeared, like putting your head under water, an immersive event.
I like those type of setups, you really can drift away and get up in the music, as you become part of the soundscape
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Offline steve

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Re: The Old Days
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2022, 03:53:40 PM »
Blindfold me I'm *any* room playing recorded music via *any* gear. I will walk directly at one of the speakers. 100 out of 100 times.

Now, whether or not speakers *should* disappear is another matter.

Best.

Hal

I think a well designed set of speakers setup correctly should disappear.
I remember my Virgo's they were a pain to setup, lots of experimentation, and they ended up where you wouldn't think they should.
But sit in the seat and not only the speakers but the walls disappeared, like putting your head under water, an immersive event.
I like those type of setups, you really can drift away and get up in the music, as you become part of the soundscape

I agree Top. As far as finding the speaker I agree, yes, should be able to do that.

1. When dealing with virtually any speaker, the frequency response changes due to
changing dispersion characteristics, and the disappearing act almost always lessens or disappears.

2. Some musical selections, maybe many, tend not to spread completely across the front.
They have depth and width, but although the speaker appears to be not there, the general
direction is, which one can walk to.

3. Another factor is and the loudness changes quite dramatically as one moves closer towards the
speakers, and one speaker will tend to dominate, one is slightly closer to one etc.

4. Another reason is that one usually knows where the walls are, so as one walks closer to one wall,
that side speaker will dominate, loudness takes over.

5. Disappearing relative.

cheers to all, be safe.

steve
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 04:06:56 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers