Author Topic: While wasting my time with a dolt on A'gon...  (Read 4819 times)

Offline P.I.

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While wasting my time with a dolt on A'gon...
« on: March 23, 2022, 09:28:27 PM »
I linked the "I'm smarter than you" guy to this:

https://learn.sonicelectronix.com/what-gauge-wire-do-i-need-for-my-amp/

It is a good resource.  It is 12VDC specific, but it makes a valid point.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2022, 09:52:54 PM by P.I. »
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Offline malloy

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Re: While wasting my time with a dolt on A'gon...
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2022, 10:09:45 PM »
Dave,

I admire your patience in dealing with those 'folks' over there. It's like a war zone, or more accurately, a Royal Rumble.

(Remember those crazy WWF wrestling matches where everyone starts either attacking one another or gangs up on one wrestler?) That's what it reminds me of. But in this case, instead of chairs and elbow, they throw ideas! Is this the post which made mention of Kafka?!

Paul

Offline tmazz

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Re: While wasting my time with a dolt on A'gon...
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2022, 10:19:14 PM »
Dave, I don't know what the A'gon discussion was about, but I would take the charts in that link with a grain of salt. The article tries to calculate the gauge of power wire required as a function of amplifier output wattage. I just don't think that this is a valid linkage frt several reasons.

First, required gauge of power cable is a function of the input amperage, not the power output of the amp. using power output as the yardstick completely ignores what type of amplifier you are looking at . In general a Tube amp will draw more power than a solid state amp of similar output power and in addition to the the Tube vs SS differences Class A amp design  is much less efficient than a class D amp and as such will draw more power. Given this is it not really possible to make a direct correlation between output wattage and the required input power of an amplifier.
Secondly the article is talking about car stereos ans because of power, space and heat considerations is is most likely that the amplifiers used in a car would overwhelmingly be Class D, which is not the case for home audio.

Lastly and perhaps most importantly, home audio is powered by 120v AC whereas car amps would be run on 12 to 14 volt DC. the lower voltage of the car audio DC systems would require in the area of an order of magnitude more amperage to provide the same input power to an amp when compared to a 120v fed system. Thus I don't think the wire gauges this guy recommends for a car stereo amp can be used as a guide for what is needed in your home system.

All that said, if I take off my engineering hat and put on my audiophile one, form a real world perspective I have done quite a bit of auditioning of Pete's Triode Wire Labs power cords over the years and I have to say that on my Mac 275 his 7ga cables sound significantly better that the 10 ga versions. According to the chart in that link my 75wpc stereo amp should  be using 10ga power cable. So not withstanding my engineers thoughts on why the chart is not really applicable to home stereo systems, my real world experience contradicts its findings as well.

As Pete always says, Just my 2 cents........
« Last Edit: March 23, 2022, 10:23:41 PM by tmazz »
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Offline tmazz

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Re: While wasting my time with a dolt on A'gon...
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2022, 10:21:12 PM »
Dave,

I admire your patience in dealing with those 'folks' over there. It's like a war zone, or more accurately, a Royal Rumble.

(Remember those crazy WWF wrestling matches where everyone starts either attacking one another or gangs up on one wrestler?) That's what it reminds me of. But in this case, instead of chairs and elbow, they throw ideas! Is this the post which made mention of Kafka?!

Paul

Ahhhhhh, that's why it's good to be here.   8)
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline malloy

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Re: While wasting my time with a dolt on A'gon...
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2022, 11:39:58 PM »
Ahhhhhh, that's why it's good to be here.   8)

Exactly!  :thumb:

Offline Triode Pete

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Re: While wasting my time with a dolt on A'gon...
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2022, 09:29:16 AM »
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Offline Nick B

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Re: While wasting my time with a dolt on A'gon...
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2022, 11:51:45 AM »
Dave,

I admire your patience in dealing with those 'folks' over there. It's like a war zone, or more accurately, a Royal Rumble.

(Remember those crazy WWF wrestling matches where everyone starts either attacking one another or gangs up on one wrestler?) That's what it reminds me of. But in this case, instead of chairs and elbow, they throw ideas! Is this the post which made mention of Kafka?!

Paul

Paul,
Please don’t “bug me” with any mention of Kafka (see The Metamorphosis) 🐞
Sincerely,
Nick
« Last Edit: March 24, 2022, 11:33:18 PM by Nick B »
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Offline James Edward

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Re: While wasting my time with a dolt on A'gon...
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2022, 12:28:14 PM »
Dave,

I admire your patience in dealing with those 'folks' over there. It's like a war zone, or more accurately, a Royal Rumble.

(Remember those crazy WWF wrestling matches where everyone starts either attacking one another or gangs up on one wrestler?) That's what it reminds me of. But in this case, instead of chairs and elbow, they throw ideas! Is this the post which made mention of Kafka?!

Paul

Paul,
Please don’t “bug me” with any mention of Kapka (see The Metamorphosis) 🐞
Sincerely,
Nick
I see what you did there Nick…
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Offline Nick B

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Re: While wasting my time with a dolt on A'gon...
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2022, 04:46:01 PM »
Dave,

I admire your patience in dealing with those 'folks' over there. It's like a war zone, or more accurately, a Royal Rumble.

(Remember those crazy WWF wrestling matches where everyone starts either attacking one another or gangs up on one wrestler?) That's what it reminds me of. But in this case, instead of chairs and elbow, they throw ideas! Is this the post which made mention of Kafka?!

Paul

Paul,
Please don’t “bug me” with any mention of Kapka (see The Metamorphosis) 🐞
Sincerely,
Nick
I see what you did there Nick…

Yes, Jim, a feeble attempt at humor ….
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Hattor Big preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Holo Cyan2 dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline malloy

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Re: While wasting my time with a dolt on A'gon...
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2022, 09:58:34 PM »
Dave,

I admire your patience in dealing with those 'folks' over there. It's like a war zone, or more accurately, a Royal Rumble.

(Remember those crazy WWF wrestling matches where everyone starts either attacking one another or gangs up on one wrestler?) That's what it reminds me of. But in this case, instead of chairs and elbow, they throw ideas! Is this the post which made mention of Kafka?!

Paul


Paul,
Please don’t “bug me” with any mention of Kapka (see The Metamorphosis) 🐞
Sincerely,
Nick

Didn't want to be a pest... 8)

Offline P.I.

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Re: While wasting my time with a dolt on A'gon...
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2022, 10:29:15 PM »
Dave, I don't know what the A'gon discussion was about, but I would take the charts in that link with a grain of salt. The article tries to calculate the gauge of power wire required as a function of amplifier output wattage. I just don't think that this is a valid linkage frt several reasons.

First, required gauge of power cable is a function of the input amperage, not the power output of the amp. using power output as the yardstick completely ignores what type of amplifier you are looking at . In general a Tube amp will draw more power than a solid state amp of similar output power and in addition to the the Tube vs SS differences Class A amp design  is much less efficient than a class D amp and as such will draw more power. Given this is it not really possible to make a direct correlation between output wattage and the required input power of an amplifier.
Secondly the article is talking about car stereos ans because of power, space and heat considerations is is most likely that the amplifiers used in a car would overwhelmingly be Class D, which is not the case for home audio.

Lastly and perhaps most importantly, home audio is powered by 120v AC whereas car amps would be run on 12 to 14 volt DC. the lower voltage of the car audio DC systems would require in the area of an order of magnitude more amperage to provide the same input power to an amp when compared to a 120v fed system. Thus I don't think the wire gauges this guy recommends for a car stereo amp can be used as a guide for what is needed in your home system.

All that said, if I take off my engineering hat and put on my audiophile one, form a real world perspective I have done quite a bit of auditioning of Pete's Triode Wire Labs power cords over the years and I have to say that on my Mac 275 his 7ga cables sound significantly better that the 10 ga versions. According to the chart in that link my 75wpc stereo amp should  be using 10ga power cable. So not withstanding my engineers thoughts on why the chart is not really applicable to home stereo systems, my real world experience contradicts its findings as well.

As Pete always says, Just my 2 cents........
Tom, the link is all about 12VDC applications.  I linked it as representational of how higher powered amplifiers should be using increasingly large power cables, no matter how they are powered: AC or DC.

Yes, larger gauge power cables usually do sound better, but that is a function of more than just cross section.  Often, it is partially a function of cable geometry and also dielectric materials.  The guys on the 'gon would tell you that you are delusional or a liar.  It seems those guys can only consider a single parameter at a time.

Here is a link to the inane discussion:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/why-do-i-need-power-management-if-i-have-a-great-power-cord?page=2&utm_campaign=website&utm_medium=email&utm_source=sendgrid
« Last Edit: March 24, 2022, 10:33:46 PM by P.I. »
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe