Author Topic: NEW SMALLER LISTENING ROOM - WHAT AM I NOT THINKING OF...???  (Read 10093 times)

Offline StereoNut

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NEW SMALLER LISTENING ROOM - WHAT AM I NOT THINKING OF...???
« on: April 29, 2021, 12:16:25 PM »
I'm planning ahead for an eventual move of my main system into a smaller listening room. (My system is listed in my signature below.) I know that the only choice I have for speaker placement will be on the short wall of the room. (See the "X"'s on the attached diagram.)  I need to plan all of this out so I know where the electric will need to be. And you have my permission to giggle, but keep in mind that I haven't moved my system in over 30 years!

>>> Note: None of the furniture that's shown will be in this room. <<<
  • The wall behind the speakers is windowed clear across. (I'm guessing that I am ordering drapes of some sort!?!)
  • The right side wall will have a 6ft. tall x 11ft. wide bookcase/cabinet that will be used for LP's, CD's and misc. audio stuff. It's not anchored yet, so it can be moved further in/out within the depth of the room.
  • Radiator is centered along the window wall up to sill height.
  • I was hoping to place my equipment on two side-by-side audio racks (maybe 3 or 4 shelves each, so my turntable isn't over my head!) centered on that front wall, but I'm concerned over that being too close to the radiator. Also worried that bringing the equipment too far out into the room will interfere with my speakers.
Of course, please tell me what else I need to worry about.

Signed,
Bill
"Friends, Romans & Countrymen; lend me your ears"

• Primaluna Dialogue Tube Pre-Amp
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Offline Nick B

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Re: NEW SMALLER LISTENING ROOM - WHAT AM I NOT THINKING OF...???
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2021, 01:13:50 PM »
Good luck on this, Bill. I’ll be curious what the guys come up with as I don’t know squat about room acoustics…
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Hattor Big preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Holo Cyan2 dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline toobluvr

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Re: NEW SMALLER LISTENING ROOM - WHAT AM I NOT THINKING OF...???
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2021, 01:16:51 PM »
I'd consider putting the racks on the right wall next to the bookcase / cabinet.
Keeps the window view clear and eliminates the possibility of soundstage interference, and radiators heating up gear.

What's that you say?    Now you need longer speaker cables, and ugliness is introduced as they snake
across the floor?     :-k

Get some Duelund DCA16 gauge.  Six weeks ago I rewired my system with it and I love it.  Well balanced, natural and organic, harmonically complete. 

On occasion you find it cheap when guys buy bulk for DIY projects, and then sell off the unused.  I paid $1.75 per foot.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=175406.msg1849563#msg1849563

Not horrible when dealers discount it to $3 per ft ($5 per ft normal price):

https://www.partsconnexion.com/DUELUND-81415.html

Super thin and flexible, easy to route.  Can even place it under an area rug if you don't like seeing the left cable crossing the entire floor. (blasphemy, I know......apologies to the cable elevator adherrents     :rofl:)

Lots of stuff online about it, especially the Jeff Day blogs / reviews.

Just a thought.....

As far as treating room acoustics -- no idea.  I don't use anything other than natural room stuff like carpet, soft furniture and irregular surfaces created by bookcases / record racks.   And I try to put lots of air around the speakers to reduce room effects as much as possible.  You obviously need to deal with the windows.  I had a similar situation with wall of windows behind my speakers.  I just installed some heavy curtains.  Seemed to work fine.  The fact that the speakers were well forward into the room probably also helped.  See my avatar and the red curtains behind my rack.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 01:55:09 PM by toobluvr »
Spkrs: Sunny Cable Tech, Reynaud, Zu, Klipsch, Gallo subs, Wharfedale
TT1: Townshend Rock 3/OL Silver Mk3A
TT2: OL Aurora/OL Encounter Mk3C
Carts: Soundsmith Zephyr,  Music Maker 3, Dynavector xx2-Mk2, Shelter 501
complete: see Sunnydaze system on AC

Offline StereoNut

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Re: NEW SMALLER LISTENING ROOM - WHAT AM I NOT THINKING OF...???
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2021, 01:58:34 PM »
Thanks, gentlemen. I appreciate your comments/suggestions.  :thumb:

SN
"Friends, Romans & Countrymen; lend me your ears"

• Primaluna Dialogue Tube Pre-Amp
• N.Y.A.L. Moscode 600 Amp
• Bolder/EE Minimax DAC
• Cambridge D-500SE CDP
• Von Schweikert 2012 Mod.VR-4 Gen.III speakers
• VPI Prime/Soundsmith MMP3/DV20x2H
• T.W.L

Offline Nick B

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Re: NEW SMALLER LISTENING ROOM - WHAT AM I NOT THINKING OF...???
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2021, 04:26:27 PM »
I'd consider putting the racks on the right wall next to the bookcase / cabinet.
Keeps the window view clear and eliminates the possibility of soundstage interference, and radiators heating up gear.

What's that you say?    Now you need longer speaker cables, and ugliness is introduced as they snake
across the floor?     :-k

Get some Duelund DCA16 gauge.  Six weeks ago I rewired my system with it and I love it.  Well balanced, natural and organic, harmonically complete. 

On occasion you find it cheap when guys buy bulk for DIY projects, and then sell off the unused.  I paid $1.75 per foot.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=175406.msg1849563#msg1849563

Not horrible when dealers discount it to $3 per ft ($5 per ft normal price):

https://www.partsconnexion.com/DUELUND-81415.html

Super thin and flexible, easy to route.  Can even place it under an area rug if you don't like seeing the left cable crossing the entire floor. (blasphemy, I know......apologies to the cable elevator adherrents     :rofl:)

Lots of stuff online about it, especially the Jeff Day blogs / reviews.

Just a thought.....

As far as treating room acoustics -- no idea.  I don't use anything other than natural room stuff like carpet, soft furniture and irregular surfaces created by bookcases / record racks.   And I try to put lots of air around the speakers to reduce room effects as much as possible.  You obviously need to deal with the windows.  I had a similar situation with wall of windows behind my speakers.  I just installed some heavy curtains.  Seemed to work fine.  The fact that the speakers were well forward into the room probably also helped.  See my avatar and the red curtains behind my rack.

Just curious…what brand connectors did you use?
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Hattor Big preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Holo Cyan2 dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline toobluvr

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Re: NEW SMALLER LISTENING ROOM - WHAT AM I NOT THINKING OF...???
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2021, 04:35:27 PM »
None.  Bare wire.  Doing my research, that's what all the guys that are into this "vintage-ish" cable say is best.

Fine by me.  Save some bux.

Also eliminated my jumpers in the process -- more savings.   Just strip it long enough such that it runs up through both pair of binding posts.  I saw another guy who didn't have binding posts with holes just wrap it around the lower post, then wrap it around the upper post, then tighten down and secure with the nuts.  Certainly can't argue with the purist approach, and reducing links in the chain. 

Like this, except I don't know how he managed to keep the insulation on the end, and still thread it through the binding post holes.   

« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 04:40:31 PM by toobluvr »
Spkrs: Sunny Cable Tech, Reynaud, Zu, Klipsch, Gallo subs, Wharfedale
TT1: Townshend Rock 3/OL Silver Mk3A
TT2: OL Aurora/OL Encounter Mk3C
Carts: Soundsmith Zephyr,  Music Maker 3, Dynavector xx2-Mk2, Shelter 501
complete: see Sunnydaze system on AC

Offline Nick B

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Re: NEW SMALLER LISTENING ROOM - WHAT AM I NOT THINKING OF...???
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2021, 04:58:57 PM »
None.  Bare wire.  Doing my research, that's what all the guys that are into this "vintage-ish" cable say is best.

Fine by me.  Save some bux.

Also eliminated my jumpers in the process -- more savings.   Just strip it long enough such that it runs up through both pair of binding posts.  I saw another guy who didn't have binding posts with holes just wrap it around the lower post, then wrap it around the upper post, then tighten down and secure with the nuts.  Certainly can't argue with the purist approach, and reducing links in the chain. 

Like this, except I don't know how he managed to keep the insulation on the end, and still thread it through the binding post holes.   



Well, it looks quite good and if it sounds great, that’s all that matters  :thumb:
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Hattor Big preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Holo Cyan2 dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline S Clark

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Re: NEW SMALLER LISTENING ROOM - WHAT AM I NOT THINKING OF...???
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2021, 06:27:41 PM »
The room dimensions aren't bad. The main issue is the glass behind the speaker location.  I'd get rid of the blinds, and get a set of heavy curtains.  Add a pair of bass traps for the corners, and you've got the makings of a nice room.  I like diffusers between speakers, and some may suggest absorbers at midway point to the listening position on the sidewalls. 
But I'd wait for Dave to chime in.  He knows much more than I do. 

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Offline rollo

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Re: NEW SMALLER LISTENING ROOM - WHAT AM I NOT THINKING OF...???
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2021, 07:58:15 AM »
  Decent size room. Set speakers 7 ft apart center to center. Bring out 1/3 into room for starters for starters.  Amps can be put on floor keeping speaker cables the same. Maybe a longer IC. I would be happy to come over and help ya. My architectural/audio services are free for you.


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Offline StereoNut

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Re: NEW SMALLER LISTENING ROOM - WHAT AM I NOT THINKING OF...???
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2021, 08:25:20 AM »
Hi Charles

Thanks for the instructions and offer to help. I am months away from this actually happening. I’m just planning ahead and gathering up ideas. As usual, thanks for being a great resource for all things audio.

Bill
"Friends, Romans & Countrymen; lend me your ears"

• Primaluna Dialogue Tube Pre-Amp
• N.Y.A.L. Moscode 600 Amp
• Bolder/EE Minimax DAC
• Cambridge D-500SE CDP
• Von Schweikert 2012 Mod.VR-4 Gen.III speakers
• VPI Prime/Soundsmith MMP3/DV20x2H
• T.W.L

Offline rpf

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Re: NEW SMALLER LISTENING ROOM - WHAT AM I NOT THINKING OF...???
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2021, 07:16:01 PM »
I'd consider putting the racks on the right wall next to the bookcase / cabinet.
Keeps the window view clear and eliminates the possibility of soundstage interference, and radiators heating up gear.

What's that you say?    Now you need longer speaker cables, and ugliness is introduced as they snake
across the floor?     :-k

Get some Duelund DCA16 gauge.  Six weeks ago I rewired my system with it and I love it.  Well balanced, natural and organic, harmonically complete. 

On occasion you find it cheap when guys buy bulk for DIY projects, and then sell off the unused.  I paid $1.75 per foot.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=175406.msg1849563#msg1849563

Not horrible when dealers discount it to $3 per ft ($5 per ft normal price):

https://www.partsconnexion.com/DUELUND-81415.html

Super thin and flexible, easy to route.  Can even place it under an area rug if you don't like seeing the left cable crossing the entire floor. (blasphemy, I know......apologies to the cable elevator adherrents     :rofl:)

Lots of stuff online about it, especially the Jeff Day blogs / reviews.

Just a thought.....

As far as treating room acoustics -- no idea.  I don't use anything other than natural room stuff like carpet, soft furniture and irregular surfaces created by bookcases / record racks.   And I try to put lots of air around the speakers to reduce room effects as much as possible.  You obviously need to deal with the windows.  I had a similar situation with wall of windows behind my speakers.  I just installed some heavy curtains.  Seemed to work fine.  The fact that the speakers were well forward into the room probably also helped.  See my avatar and the red curtains behind my rack.

Hey John, how's the bass with those cables? Do you find they have a good, extended, frequency balance?

South Carolina, huh. How do you like it?

Bill, I second what John said about moving the racks to the side wall. Unless the speakers are completely in front of the racks, placing the racks between the speakers will seriously screw up the soundstage.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 07:43:00 PM by rpf »
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Offline toobluvr

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Re: NEW SMALLER LISTENING ROOM - WHAT AM I NOT THINKING OF...???
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2021, 09:42:22 PM »
Hi Rob....

Good bass, frequency range sounds complete to me.  To sum up succinctly -- smooth, balanced and natural.  I likey.  And I really like the no fuss / no muss bare wire sans connectors purist approach, and the thin-like-shoelace routing / flexibility.  And of course, the price!     :thumb:

SC?   Friggin HUMID!!   :rofl:
But winters are nice.

Almost ended up real close to you, Delray Beach.  Long story for a private chat.

Take Care....

- John 
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 09:50:29 PM by toobluvr »
Spkrs: Sunny Cable Tech, Reynaud, Zu, Klipsch, Gallo subs, Wharfedale
TT1: Townshend Rock 3/OL Silver Mk3A
TT2: OL Aurora/OL Encounter Mk3C
Carts: Soundsmith Zephyr,  Music Maker 3, Dynavector xx2-Mk2, Shelter 501
complete: see Sunnydaze system on AC

Offline rpf

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Re: NEW SMALLER LISTENING ROOM - WHAT AM I NOT THINKING OF...???
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2021, 08:07:01 AM »
Thanks John. I think I'll try them, although I notice that your links are to hookup cable so four individual runs would have to be ordered. That might actually be more convenient for me and is definitely a little less expensive than ordering the equivalent gauge speaker cable. However does the hookup wire have the same oil impregnated cotton covering as the speaker cable and is it otherwise identical to the latter? There is also a heavier gauge speaker cable that might be interesting (12awg as opposed to 16awg).

PS: Send me a PM or call; I want to hear your story about how you ended up where you are and more about the area.
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Offline toobluvr

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Re: NEW SMALLER LISTENING ROOM - WHAT AM I NOT THINKING OF...???
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2021, 11:02:36 AM »
Thanks John. I think I'll try them, although I notice that your links are to hookup cable so four individual runs would have to be ordered. That might actually be more convenient for me and is definitely a little less expensive than ordering the equivalent gauge speaker cable. However does the hookup wire have the same oil impregnated cotton covering as the speaker cable and is it otherwise identical to the latter? There is also a heavier gauge speaker cable that might be interesting (12awg as opposed to 16awg).

PS: Send me a PM or call; I want to hear your story about how you ended up where you are and more about the area.

Yes, it gets a little confusing, this is what I've determined from research and the partsconnexion (PC) website.

(1) if you buy the individual runs of "hookup wire", you need 2 runs per speaker.   I just gently twist them together like shown in the photos here:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155917.0

If you have bi-wire speakers and feel experimental, you can do 4 runs to each speaker.  In my research I came across some comments (Jeff Day?) about nothing positive provided.  Plus, things might get a little jammed up on the amp end.  In my own case, initially I just wanted to try the single run.....see if I liked it.....and could always add a 2nd set in the future if I wanted to.  Single run sounds so good on my bi-wire speakers, I have no desire to do so.

(2)  If you read the earlier link to my AC seller, and the PC catalog, it does describe these individual runs of "hookup wire" as having the "cotton oil" covering.

Be careful, PC also sells Duelund cable with a Poly jacket instead of the "cotton oil:

https://www.partsconnexion.com/DUELUND-84782.html

(3)  I'm pretty sure -- but not 100% definite -- that only diff between what PC calls "hookup wire" vs "speaker cable" is that the latter contains the 2 runs of the hookup wire inside of a braided outer jacket. Just like a traditional SC, so per speaker you just order the length you need.

at current prices, the 12awg "speaker cable" is the better deal:

https://www.partsconnexion.com/DUELUND-82323.html

https://www.partsconnexion.com/DUELUND-87080.html

(4) 12awg vs 16awg:   TBH I didn't sweat it too much.  My understanding is that the heavier gauge is for higher power situations.  I'm moving to efficient speakers and low power tubes so I figure 16awg is fine.  Plus, from what I could gather in my internet browsing, the 16 just seems to be the more popular choice.  IIRC the few comparisons I did come across describes the 12 as maybe faster and a bit leaner and more resolved, while the 16 has a more relaxed and natural organic quality.  I tend to gravitate to the latter.

PS:   I enjoyed the SC so much that I bought this IC:

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649707043-duelund-dca16ga-with-kle-copper-harmony-rca-interconnects/

It too sounds very nice.  And great price when you consider the connectors alone cost about 50 bux.  And I love love love how flexible and easy to route this stuff is.  Sick and tired of thick / stiff / heavy pretentious audiophile cable.  Ridic.  Time to simplify.

I'll give you a call.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2021, 01:51:51 PM by toobluvr »
Spkrs: Sunny Cable Tech, Reynaud, Zu, Klipsch, Gallo subs, Wharfedale
TT1: Townshend Rock 3/OL Silver Mk3A
TT2: OL Aurora/OL Encounter Mk3C
Carts: Soundsmith Zephyr,  Music Maker 3, Dynavector xx2-Mk2, Shelter 501
complete: see Sunnydaze system on AC

Offline StereoNut

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Re: NEW SMALLER LISTENING ROOM - WHAT AM I NOT THINKING OF...???
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2021, 09:23:20 AM »
I was reading through this article this morning and was surprised by this comment:

"Avoid left / right symmetry, especially with respect to corners, halls and walls. It’s okay to have your speakers symmetrical with each other, but make sure they’re not exactly symmetrical to the room."

https://www.aperionaudio.com/blogs/aperion-audio-blog/2-channel-stereo-speaker-placement

Whatta you guys thinking on this?

Thanks,
SN
"Friends, Romans & Countrymen; lend me your ears"

• Primaluna Dialogue Tube Pre-Amp
• N.Y.A.L. Moscode 600 Amp
• Bolder/EE Minimax DAC
• Cambridge D-500SE CDP
• Von Schweikert 2012 Mod.VR-4 Gen.III speakers
• VPI Prime/Soundsmith MMP3/DV20x2H
• T.W.L