AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Amplification and Preamplification => Topic started by: mresseguie on June 20, 2020, 11:53:10 AM
-
Apparently, my audio addiction is alive and well because I now own two Model 2 preamps - at least for now. I may sell my older unit. My new Model 2 is in my system and burning in. It's up to about 4 hours now. :X :beer:
Photos...
-
:thumb:
Apparently, my audio addiction is alive and well because I now own two Model 2 preamps - at least for now. I may sell my older unit. My new Model 2 is in my system and burning in. It's up to about 4 hours now. :X :beer:
Photos...
:thumb:
-
I made a briefer post on AC and provided a link to this thread.
8 hours....
I should have my head examined for contemplating keeping both old and new...
-
Enjoy Michael.
charles
-
Michael what are the controls on that unit? The pics are kinda small.
-
Michael what are the controls on that unit? The pics are kinda small.
Hi
Don Sachs here. The new OLED display Khozmo has relay input switching. The volume knob is also the input selector. You turn the volume knob and it is a rotary encoder and will scroll up or down until it hits 00 or 63, the min and max volume of course. You simply push the knob and for each push it will advance through the inputs until it hits 4 and then will cycle back to input 1. One the remote you can of course increase or decrease volume, mute, cycle through the inputs, and there is a button to turn the display off if you like. As with previous models, if you mute and unmute it comes back to the same volume setting of course, and when you turn the unit off it always comes up to 00 when you power it up again. I have eliminated the channel attenuators because no one really needs a balance control, and the signal path is now VERY short. The signal no longer needs to go from the rear panel to the front panel for switching and volume. It only travels a few inches from input jacks to board and then a few inches down to the preamp itself.
Don
-
Don
Since the units no longer have user adjustable gain what did you settle on for the fixed value?
-
It is still about 18 dB overall, but the taper on the Khozmo works well with most any amp or speakers.
-
Hi Don welcome. Good to see you posting here. Nice preamp.
charles
-
Hi Don welcome. Good to see you posting here. Nice preamp.
charles
Thanks Charles. I will check in from time to time. Kind of busy being a one man show though:) Almost have my integrated amp done, but never seem to get to finishing it with production of other things having to take priority.
-
My preamp is up to approximately 50 hours now, and it's producing very nice music. :thumb: I have not attempted to switch back and forth from old to new. Hell. They both sound wonderful.
Excellent product, Don!
-
wow the style changes on the new version look great. Love that top plate and the socket color looks great.. and the new OLED screen with the colored text looks so modern compared to the old one.. I don't even see the oled advertised on hattor's own web site yet
-
Hi, uncola! Long time no chat.
My new pre is up to 60+ hours now. My system sounds so good that I haven't bothered switching over to my 'summertime' SS amp yet. The weather is going to have to get a lot hotter before I switch (even though the SS amp sounds pretty good). I love the magical music coming out of my speakers.
Michael
-
So happy for you Michael.
charles
-
Hi all,
Just finished the new integrated amp. The Valhalla. 35 watts/ch of 6L6 power. OLED Khozmo up front, one XLR and 3 RCA inputs. Fully regulated independent power supplies for each channel, just like the Kootenay amp. Full auto bias of course. I will post better photos on my site soon. Sounds great for 5 hours and will improve for a week or two.
-
Don,
There's probably not enough room in your listening room. I can take it off your hands during burn in. I'll treat it like my own. :thumb:
No need to thank me. It's the least I can do. 8)
Pics! Pics! How does it sound? :drool:
-
Don,
There's probably not enough room in your listening room. I can take it off your hands during burn in. I'll treat it like my own. :thumb:
No need to thank me. It's the least I can do. 8)
Pics! Pics! How does it sound? :drool:
Oh, it sounds quite good. I am giving it 10-20 hours before I really evaluate it, but it is better than the little 19 watt/ch prototype I built. This one has that powerful sound you are used to. More in a day or two. Have to make a page for the website for it.
-
Update on the integrated amp. I upped the bias a wee bit so that it is now at about 17.7 watts at idle. The 6P3S-E is happier there and sounds amazing at about 50 hours. Very holographic. The amp makes about 33 watts/ch on the bench and does so all the way down to 20Hz with no trouble (both channels driven of course). So we will call it a 30 wpc integrated that beats it spec by a bit. 17.7 watts is a good idle bias spot because that is right at 70% for the 25 watt rated tubes like the EL34 and KT66. I tried some vintage Mullard EL34 tubes I have kept over the years. They sound nice, but I prefer the 6P3S-E. I have never really liked the EL34 types. Nice mids, but a bit bright sounding. Never understood the obsession with that tube type. I would love to try a quad of good KT66, but they are $100 - $150 per quad and you can buy 6P3S-E for $45-60 per quad. They don't need to be matched at all in my gear due to the auto biasing. Amp just doesn't care. That is good because if you buy a quad of most Russian power tubes on ebay you will find they are all over the map for current draw unless someone has matched them.
I will make a page on my site for the Valhalla this weekend as soon as I take some good photos. It has exceeded my sonic expectations for the project and it is still not completely run in :) This one is off to Clayton Shaw of Spatial Audio speaker fame for evaluation. He has heard lots of amps so I am interested in his unbiased opinion of this one.
-
Don,
Are you saying that KT66 tubes are interchangeable with the 6P3S-E tubes?
I have no experience with either tube - Is there a sonic difference?
Have you determined the Valhalla's weight (and also the shipping weight)?
I'm betting the Valhalla would be happier driving 88dB and higher speakers, but perhaps 83dB 2-way monitors in a small bedroom would work quite well as well?
"Valhalla"....mmm....it has a nice ring to it. :beer:
-
I have no experience with either tube - Is there a sonic difference?
Michael. I’m with Mr. Sachs on the EL34 thing. Not my favorite tube for audio. Great in ‘some’ guitar amps. I much prefer the KT77 over the EL34 for audio. It could be the tetrode vs pentode thing. That extra grid gets in the way. I like KT88‘S better than 6550’s, too.
My favorite tube for 30 - 35 watt stereo amps are KT66’s. They have always seemed to do every aspect of the sonic spectrum even handedly. I’m finishing up a rebuild of a Dyna ST70 with a VTA input board. I’m using the improved, high current power transformer. It will handle the heater current those hungry KT66 draw. I’ll be comparing KT77 and KT66 outputs. I’m thinking that I already know...
I'll let you know my findings.
I wish I could swing one of Don’s amps... but not right now :(
-
I have no experience with either tube - Is there a sonic difference?
Michael. I’m with Mr. Sachs on the EL34 thing. Not my favorite tube for audio. Great in ‘some’ guitar amps. I much prefer the KT77 over the EL34 for audio. It could be the tetrode vs pentode thing. That extra grid gets in the way. I like KT88‘S better than 6550’s, too.
My favorite tube for 30 - 35 watt stereo amps are KT66’s. They have always seemed to do every aspect of the sonic spectrum even handedly. I’m finishing up a rebuild of a Dyna ST70 with a VTA input board. I’m using the improved, high current power transformer. It will handle the heater current those hungry KT66 draw. I’ll be comparing KT77 and KT66 outputs. I’m thinking that I already know...
I'll let you know my findings.
I wish I could swing one of Don’s amps... but not right now :(
Hi
So what bias point do you like the KT66 at? It is a 25 watt tube, so 70% is about 17.5 watts at idle, but then the screens are a few percent, so really about 18 watts should be pretty good. I may crank the bias a wee bit more by changing a resistor on the bias board and shoot for about 18 watts. Any real 25 watt rated tube should take 18 watts all day long and have a very long life. I saw a post by my old pal Jim McShane who said the 6P3S-E is really about as tough as a 6L6GC, which would be a 30 watt tube. He said you could bias them at WELL over 20 watts with no problems. You might try a quad of the 6P3S-E in your experiment. As long as they are over 17 watts that seemed to be a sweet spot. I will try them a bit hotter to around 18 watts. They are an excellent tube even without the cheap price. They take a good 50 hours to run in though or more. I really should get a quad of KT66 to play with, but I have read reports from folks who said they thought the 6P3S-E sounded pretty much as good as their gold lion reissue kt66... so I haven't bothered. So many tubes.... so little time:)
-
Don,
Are you saying that KT66 tubes are interchangeable with the 6P3S-E tubes?
I have no experience with either tube - Is there a sonic difference?
Have you determined the Valhalla's weight (and also the shipping weight)?
I'm betting the Valhalla would be happier driving 88dB and higher speakers, but perhaps 83dB 2-way monitors in a small bedroom would work quite well as well?
"Valhalla"....mmm....it has a nice ring to it. :beer:
Hi Michael...
The Valhallas are the mountain range I look at out my window:)
The 6L6 types and the KT types all have the same pinout. No connection on pin 6 and pin 1. So, if you observe the rules about biasing and tube power ratings they are interchangeable. You want to bias a tube in a push pull circuit at 65 to 75 % of its max plate dissipation usually. So a KT88 is a 42 watt tube and should be biased at 28-32 watts or so, although some of the vintage amps would run them up to 35 watts. The KT66 is a 25 watt tube, and I believe the kt77 is as well, so they are biased at more like 17-18 watts. The EL34 has pin 1 connected to a suppressor grid. That should be at the same potential as the cathode on pin 8, usually right around ground. In my Valhalla pins 1 and 8 are separated by the cathode fuse and I am using pin 1 as a tie point. However, since the fuse has only about 1 ohm of resistance it is just fine to put an EL34 in that circuit. There are other circuits where people are using pin 1 as a tie point and it could have some high voltage on it. You cannot put an EL34 in there. So it depends on what people are doing with pin 1 in an amp that is designed for the 6L6 or one of the KT family, since they don't use pin 1. It is very convenient to use pins 1 and 6 on an octal tube socket as tie points for wiring. You cannot do that with the EL34. Yet another reason not to use an EL34:) It makes wiring harder..... and it sounds kind of bright to me.
30 watts/ch will drive many speakers, but it really depends on how difficult load a speaker is as well as the efficiency, yes. That, and how loud you like things. I had a guy years ago who had me rebuild one of the little Sherwood EL84 integrated amps for all of about 17 watts/ch. He drove maggies in a small room and thought it was the best amp he ever heard. So anything is possible I guess. Anything well behaved above 89-90 dB should probably be OK, but 92 dB speakers would be much easier to drive and there are so many great choices like the whole spatial audio line, or the daedalus you like as I recall. All are quite efficient, and that is really what this amp is aimed at.
-
I also forgot to state above that each tube can work best with a different transformer primary. For example, in an ultralinear push pull circuit, both the EL34 and the 6L6 work very nicely with a 6.6K primary. In other circuits or with other tubes the optimal primary will differ. So it is really impossible to say what tubes will work well unless you know the bias point, the transformer primary, and the circuit. Just because you can plug a certain tube in and it won't blow up doesn't mean it will sound good. Also, you may prefer the KT77 in one circuit and the KT66 or 6L6 more in another. So if you read that someone likes to bias their EL34 and 40 mA, it means absolutely nothing if you don't know the plate voltage or the circuit, or whether it is fixed or cathode bias or the transformer primary, etc... In general, I don't really like the EL34, but maybe there is a circuit where I would like it more than anything else.....
-
I have no experience with either tube - Is there a sonic difference?
Michael. I’m with Mr. Sachs on the EL34 thing. Not my favorite tube for audio. Great in ‘some’ guitar amps. I much prefer the KT77 over the EL34 for audio. It could be the tetrode vs pentode thing. That extra grid gets in the way. I like KT88‘S better than 6550’s, too.
My favorite tube for 30 - 35 watt stereo amps are KT66’s. They have always seemed to do every aspect of the sonic spectrum even handedly. I’m finishing up a rebuild of a Dyna ST70 with a VTA input board. I’m using the improved, high current power transformer. It will handle the heater current those hungry KT66 draw. I’ll be comparing KT77 and KT66 outputs. I’m thinking that I already know...
I'll let you know my findings.
I wish I could swing one of Don’s amps... but not right now :(
Hi
So what bias point do you like the KT66 at? It is a 25 watt tube, so 70% is about 17.5 watts at idle, but then the screens are a few percent, so really about 18 watts should be pretty good. I may crank the bias a wee bit more by changing a resistor on the bias board and shoot for about 18 watts. Any real 25 watt rated tube should take 18 watts all day long and have a very long life. I saw a post by my old pal Jim McShane who said the 6P3S-E is really about as tough as a 6L6GC, which would be a 30 watt tube. He said you could bias them at WELL over 20 watts with no problems. You might try a quad of the 6P3S-E in your experiment. As long as they are over 17 watts that seemed to be a sweet spot. I will try them a bit hotter to around 18 watts. They are an excellent tube even without the cheap price. They take a good 50 hours to run in though or more. I really should get a quad of KT66 to play with, but I have read reports from folks who said they thought the 6P3S-E sounded pretty much as good as their gold lion reissue kt66... so I haven't bothered. So many tubes.... so little time:)
Pretty much what you said. IIRC my last ones in another amp we’re right at 17W for stereo use. I’m VERY familiar with them in guitar amps. They sing... see the Mayall Beano album and Clapton’s tone. Quintessential British blues. Sweeter than 6L6GC.
I’ll include the 6P3S-E in the trials. At the price I’d be kind of dumb not to do so!
Like you said: so many tubes... so little time!
-
Are you saying that KT66 tubes are interchangeable with the 6P3S-E tubes? Is there a sonic difference between KT-66 and 6P3S-E tubes?
-
Are you saying that KT66 tubes are interchangeable with the 6P3S-E tubes? Is there a sonic difference between KT-66 and 6P3S-E tubes?
They pretty much should be, yes. Not the 6P3S, but only the 6P3S-E because it appears to have a power rating far above the 20.5 watts or so that is in the spec sheet. As McShane noted, it really is 25-30 watts. As for the sonic difference, I have not played with KT66 tubes, but they are supposed to be excellent. From what I could glean, the Chinese KT66 (Valve Art, TAD, Shuguang, etc...) are all Shuguang tubes and sound best when biased at 70% of max rating. The JJ is supposed to be a good tube, and the Russian Gold Lion reissue as well, which is the most expensive. You can get Chinese ones for about $100 per quad. I think there is a black treasure version which is expensive.
It is just that the 6P3S-E sounds very good and if you buy them 12 at a time you can get them for a little over $10 per tube, well maybe $12 or so with shipping. Of course the shipping from Russia now is 3 months...... So I had little motivation to pay $150 for a quad of gold lion kt66, but I probably should.... My guess is that the 6P3S-E is in the same league though for 30-40% of the price. At some point things are just way more than good enough to enjoy:)
-
I have no experience with either tube - Is there a sonic difference?
Michael. I’m with Mr. Sachs on the EL34 thing. Not my favorite tube for audio. Great in ‘some’ guitar amps. I much prefer the KT77 over the EL34 for audio. It could be the tetrode vs pentode thing. That extra grid gets in the way. I like KT88‘S better than 6550’s, too.
My favorite tube for 30 - 35 watt stereo amps are KT66’s. They have always seemed to do every aspect of the sonic spectrum even handedly. I’m finishing up a rebuild of a Dyna ST70 with a VTA input board. I’m using the improved, high current power transformer. It will handle the heater current those hungry KT66 draw. I’ll be comparing KT77 and KT66 outputs. I’m thinking that I already know...
I'll let you know my findings.
I wish I could swing one of Don’s amps... but not right now :(
Hi
So what bias point do you like the KT66 at? It is a 25 watt tube, so 70% is about 17.5 watts at idle, but then the screens are a few percent, so really about 18 watts should be pretty good. I may crank the bias a wee bit more by changing a resistor on the bias board and shoot for about 18 watts. Any real 25 watt rated tube should take 18 watts all day long and have a very long life. I saw a post by my old pal Jim McShane who said the 6P3S-E is really about as tough as a 6L6GC, which would be a 30 watt tube. He said you could bias them at WELL over 20 watts with no problems. You might try a quad of the 6P3S-E in your experiment. As long as they are over 17 watts that seemed to be a sweet spot. I will try them a bit hotter to around 18 watts. They are an excellent tube even without the cheap price. They take a good 50 hours to run in though or more. I really should get a quad of KT66 to play with, but I have read reports from folks who said they thought the 6P3S-E sounded pretty much as good as their gold lion reissue kt66... so I haven't bothered. So many tubes.... so little time:)
Pretty much what you said. IIRC my last ones in another amp we’re right at 17W for stereo use. I’m VERY familiar with them in guitar amps. They sing... see the Mayall Beano album and Clapton’s tone. Quintessential British blues. Sweeter than 6L6GC.
I’ll include the 6P3S-E in the trials. At the price I’d be kind of dumb not to do so!
Like you said: so many tubes... so little time!
That would be really interesting. Please post your results. The more data points the better! This is in an ST-70 clone? Octal front end or small tubes?
-
This Russian lettering system always confuses me........
Is this 6P3S-E tube you guys are discussing the same as this Russian 6N3C-E in this article?
https://jeffsplace.positive-feedback.com/6n3ce-vacuum-tubes/
I use this power tube in my Will Vincent Baldwin organ amp, as it is the one that Will recommends. Can't compare as I haven't tried any other 6L6 varieties, but it sounds real good to me.
I ask because my understanding is that both are replacements for 6L6 tubes, and I thought they might be the same tube.
-
I have no experience with either tube - Is there a sonic difference?
Michael. I’m with Mr. Sachs on the EL34 thing. Not my favorite tube for audio. Great in ‘some’ guitar amps. I much prefer the KT77 over the EL34 for audio. It could be the tetrode vs pentode thing. That extra grid gets in the way. I like KT88‘S better than 6550’s, too.
My favorite tube for 30 - 35 watt stereo amps are KT66’s. They have always seemed to do every aspect of the sonic spectrum even handedly. I’m finishing up a rebuild of a Dyna ST70 with a VTA input board. I’m using the improved, high current power transformer. It will handle the heater current those hungry KT66 draw. I’ll be comparing KT77 and KT66 outputs. I’m thinking that I already know...
I'll let you know my findings.
I wish I could swing one of Don’s amps... but not right now :(
Hi
So what bias point do you like the KT66 at? It is a 25 watt tube, so 70% is about 17.5 watts at idle, but then the screens are a few percent, so really about 18 watts should be pretty good. I may crank the bias a wee bit more by changing a resistor on the bias board and shoot for about 18 watts. Any real 25 watt rated tube should take 18 watts all day long and have a very long life. I saw a post by my old pal Jim McShane who said the 6P3S-E is really about as tough as a 6L6GC, which would be a 30 watt tube. He said you could bias them at WELL over 20 watts with no problems. You might try a quad of the 6P3S-E in your experiment. As long as they are over 17 watts that seemed to be a sweet spot. I will try them a bit hotter to around 18 watts. They are an excellent tube even without the cheap price. They take a good 50 hours to run in though or more. I really should get a quad of KT66 to play with, but I have read reports from folks who said they thought the 6P3S-E sounded pretty much as good as their gold lion reissue kt66... so I haven't bothered. So many tubes.... so little time:)
Pretty much what you said. IIRC my last ones in another amp we’re right at 17W for stereo use. I’m VERY familiar with them in guitar amps. They sing... see the Mayall Beano album and Clapton’s tone. Quintessential British blues. Sweeter than 6L6GC.
I’ll include the 6P3S-E in the trials. At the price I’d be kind of dumb not to do so!
Like you said: so many tubes... so little time!
That would be really interesting. Please post your results. The more data points the better! This is in an ST-70 clone? Octal front end or small tubes?
VTA 12AU7 input board.
http://www.tubes4hifi.com/VTAcover02.jpg
I have Mullard CV4024 and some 12BH7’s to try along with the 12AU7’s. I used a combination of Takman metal and carbon film resistors with some 20ppm wirewounds for higher current applications. Coupling caps are a combo of PIO and Myflex. Power supply is 630V polypropylene for The primary supply along with the electrolytics resident on the board. The power TX is the beefier one available from Tubes fo HiFiZine and Triode electronics:
http://www.triodeelectronics.com/mq060.html
Choke is a higher inductance and current Hammond. I have NOS Mullard 5AR4’s and a rectifier I built from Hexfreds. I’ll try them both. All that left of the original is the chassis and output transformers. I cryoed everything since that is what I do 😁. I need time to get it all together hopefully this month. Business is good :thumb:
When I get back to Albuquerque next week I’ll post some pics.
I have another ST 70 that I want to build the octal front end for to compare with this one. Like tubes: so many projects, so little time!
-
I have no experience with either tube - Is there a sonic difference?
Michael. I’m with Mr. Sachs on the EL34 thing. Not my favorite tube for audio. Great in ‘some’ guitar amps. I much prefer the KT77 over the EL34 for audio. It could be the tetrode vs pentode thing. That extra grid gets in the way. I like KT88‘S better than 6550’s, too.
My favorite tube for 30 - 35 watt stereo amps are KT66’s. They have always seemed to do every aspect of the sonic spectrum even handedly. I’m finishing up a rebuild of a Dyna ST70 with a VTA input board. I’m using the improved, high current power transformer. It will handle the heater current those hungry KT66 draw. I’ll be comparing KT77 and KT66 outputs. I’m thinking that I already know...
I'll let you know my findings.
I wish I could swing one of Don’s amps... but not right now :(
Hi
So what bias point do you like the KT66 at? It is a 25 watt tube, so 70% is about 17.5 watts at idle, but then the screens are a few percent, so really about 18 watts should be pretty good. I may crank the bias a wee bit more by changing a resistor on the bias board and shoot for about 18 watts. Any real 25 watt rated tube should take 18 watts all day long and have a very long life. I saw a post by my old pal Jim McShane who said the 6P3S-E is really about as tough as a 6L6GC, which would be a 30 watt tube. He said you could bias them at WELL over 20 watts with no problems. You might try a quad of the 6P3S-E in your experiment. As long as they are over 17 watts that seemed to be a sweet spot. I will try them a bit hotter to around 18 watts. They are an excellent tube even without the cheap price. They take a good 50 hours to run in though or more. I really should get a quad of KT66 to play with, but I have read reports from folks who said they thought the 6P3S-E sounded pretty much as good as their gold lion reissue kt66... so I haven't bothered. So many tubes.... so little time:)
Pretty much what you said. IIRC my last ones in another amp we’re right at 17W for stereo use. I’m VERY familiar with them in guitar amps. They sing... see the Mayall Beano album and Clapton’s tone. Quintessential British blues. Sweeter than 6L6GC.
I’ll include the 6P3S-E in the trials. At the price I’d be kind of dumb not to do so!
Like you said: so many tubes... so little time!
That would be really interesting. Please post your results. The more data points the better! This is in an ST-70 clone? Octal front end or small tubes?
VTA 12AU7 input board.
http://www.tubes4hifi.com/VTAcover02.jpg
I have Mullard CV4024 and some 12BH7’s to try along with the 12AU7’s. I used a combination of Takman metal and carbon film resistors with some 20ppm wirewounds for higher current applications. Coupling caps are a combo of PIO and Myflex. Power supply is 630V polypropylene for The primary supply along with the electrolytics resident on the board. The power TX is the beefier one available from Tubes fo HiFiZine and Triode electronics:
http://www.triodeelectronics.com/mq060.html
Choke is a higher inductance and current Hammond. I have NOS Mullard 5AR4’s and a rectifier I built from Hexfreds. I’ll try them both. All that left of the original is the chassis and output transformers. I cryoed everything since that is what I do 😁. I need time to get it all together hopefully this month. Business is good :thumb:
When I get back to Albuquerque next week I’ll post some pics.
I have another ST 70 that I want to build the octal front end for to compare with this one. Like tubes: so many projects, so little time!
Cool. The octal one will sound better:) Do all your tricks, but use the octal front end. Problem with the ST70 is that it is power supply limited. The original version also had a poor driver circuit, but all the replacement boards solve that. You can only fit so much in that chassis though. I did one for a guy years ago with the octal front end and it was a nice little amp as long as you didn't push it hard. I have moved completely away from conventional power supplies, but that is because I decided that I didn't care what things cost. I would just build it and price it based on what it costs to build and only sell a few of things. I did build a version of the kt88 amps with full film cap power supplies, dual independent with a choke on each channel and mundorf tube caps. It was really good. That said, it cannot carry the lunch of the current version, but you could never fit all of that in the st 70 chassis. But, all of that said, a souped up st70 is a very nice little musical amp that would give you years of enjoyment with the right speakers. I bet the 12bh7 will sound better than any 12au7 too.....
-
This Russian lettering system always confuses me........
Is this 6P3S-E tube you guys are discussing the same as this Russian 6N3C-E in this article?
https://jeffsplace.positive-feedback.com/6n3ce-vacuum-tubes/
I use this power tube in my Will Vincent Baldwin organ amp, as it is the one that Will recommends. Can't compare as I haven't tried any other 6L6 varieties, but it sounds real good to me.
I ask because my understanding is that both are replacements for 6L6 tubes, and I thought they might be the same tube.
Yes, that indeed is the tube. The pi symbol is just often written as the P, that is all. Great tube for a cheap price.
-
This Russian lettering system always confuses me........
Is this 6P3S-E tube you guys are discussing the same as this Russian 6N3C-E in this article?
https://jeffsplace.positive-feedback.com/6n3ce-vacuum-tubes/
I use this power tube in my Will Vincent Baldwin organ amp, as it is the one that Will recommends. Can't compare as I haven't tried any other 6L6 varieties, but it sounds real good to me.
I ask because my understanding is that both are replacements for 6L6 tubes, and I thought they might be the same tube.
Yes, that indeed is the tube. The pi symbol is just often written as the P, that is all. Great tube for a cheap price.
Understood about the P replacing the cyrillic Pi.....
But the 2 tubes I reference are named differently in other ways.
The print on my tube has:
N instead of P
and
C instead of S
Are they the same tube?
Thanks......
John
-
This Russian lettering system always confuses me........
Is this 6P3S-E tube you guys are discussing the same as this Russian 6N3C-E in this article?
https://jeffsplace.positive-feedback.com/6n3ce-vacuum-tubes/
I use this power tube in my Will Vincent Baldwin organ amp, as it is the one that Will recommends. Can't compare as I haven't tried any other 6L6 varieties, but it sounds real good to me.
I ask because my understanding is that both are replacements for 6L6 tubes, and I thought they might be the same tube.
Yes, that indeed is the tube. The pi symbol is just often written as the P, that is all. Great tube for a cheap price.
Understood about the P replacing the cyrillic Pi.....
But the 2 tubes I reference are named differently in other ways.
The print on my tube has:
N instead of P
and
C instead of S
Are they the same tube?
Thanks......
John
Hi
Yes, I looked at the link. Same tube absolutely. if you go on ebay and search for 6P3S-E you will see tons. Just be aware the shipping takes forever now from Russia or even Ukraine. Also, you have to get the ones with the coin base (thin). The thick plastic base ones are 6P3S and are not nearly as good a tube so avoid them. I have been listening to the Reflektor made ones. There are also Foton factory ones and I don't have experience with them. Maybe better, maybe worse sounding, or maybe the same, I have no opinion on it due to no experience with them
-
Thanks for the clarification. :thumb:
I thought they were the same tube but when I did online searches I never saw the 2 tube designations in the same description as equivalents or substitutes -- just one or the other, but never both together. Hence, my confusion.
-
Don,
You probably told me this before, but I'm curious about the three 6SN7 tubes in my Kootenay 120. Will changing to PSVANE or WE6SN7 Plus tubes noticeably improve the sound, or should I just not be concerned and leave them alone?
Michael
-
Hi
The WE6SN7plus is really big. You can fit one of those in the middle and then two other tubes of your choice as the outer ones, which are the drivers. All make a difference. I am sure your tubes are fine if the amp sounds good. The WE6SN7, which is the predecessor to the WE6SN7plus (with the huge bottle) has the same plate structure and they are all I can get right now until Shuguang starts up production again. Honestly, I cannot hear much difference between the WE6SN7 and the WE6SN7plus, and the WE6SN7 is the same bottle size as all the CV181 types. The small coke bottle shape. You can fit three of those across the power amp front. Will it sound considerably better than the CV181-T or Z you have? It will sound a little warmer, with the same detail. Whether that is significant is hard to say. It would be about a $225 or so experiment. At some point things are very good already.
-
At some point things are very good already.
Isn't this always the way it goes? When to say when. When ‘better’ becomes ‘different’ I’m done. It just pick the ‘different’ that is best. :thumb:
Tweak me to the max! Then, back off one... But, save the max for “those times”. aa
-
At some point things are very good already.
Isn't this always the way it goes? When to say when. When ‘better’ becomes ‘different’ I’m done. It just pick the ‘different’ that is best. :thumb:
Tweak me to the max! Then, back off one... But, save the max for “those times”. aa
Sure. But sometimes you can chase your tail or put money where it could be better spent elsewhere. A better coupling cap will swamp many a tube difference, etc...... :)
-
Thanks for the reply. :thumb:
I should have included more information in my question. Under 'normal' circumstances, I would not dwell over whether this or that tube made much difference <not much of a tube roller>. However, in the last year or so, I bought several pairs and/or quads of tubes as back up tubes in case a tube goes bad on me. Some of them I bought from you, Don; some from eBay; some from The Tube Guy, and one pair from PSVane. Anyway, I find myself with multiple pairs of slightly different flavors of 6SN7 tubes, and two quads of different KT88 tubes.
Without intending to, I've made it possible for me to roll tubes, which prompted my asking you about the three 6SN7 tubes in the Kootenay 120 amp.
My new Model 2 is probably well burned in now. I've lost count of how many hours it's at, but it's well in excess of 100. Just yesterday, I was mesmerized while listening to some Classical piano music. I'm so enjoying the music the preamp/amp combo is producing that I haven't bothered to switch over to my 'summertime' solid state amp.
I still haven't bothered to compare the old and new preamps. In fact, I loaned the old one out to Alan to put in his system for a while. His comment upon adding it to his system, "Dammmmm, what a difference." 8)
-
Thanks for the reply. :thumb:
I should have included more information in my question. Under 'normal' circumstances, I would not dwell over whether this or that tube made much difference <not much of a tube roller>. However, in the last year or so, I bought several pairs and/or quads of tubes as back up tubes in case a tube goes bad on me. Some of them I bought from you, Don; some from eBay; some from The Tube Guy, and one pair from PSVane. Anyway, I find myself with multiple pairs of slightly different flavors of 6SN7 tubes, and two quads of different KT88 tubes.
Without intending to, I've made it possible for me to roll tubes, which prompted my asking you about the three 6SN7 tubes in the Kootenay 120 amp.
My new Model 2 is probably well burned in now. I've lost count of how many hours it's at, but it's well in excess of 100. Just yesterday, I was mesmerized while listening to some Classical piano music. I'm so enjoying the music the preamp/amp combo is producing that I haven't bothered to switch over to my 'summertime' solid state amp.
I still haven't bothered to compare the old and new preamps. In fact, I loaned the old one out to Alan (AC member Aldcol) to put in his system for a while. His comment upon adding it to his system, "Dammmmm, what a difference." 8)
Hi Michael,
Well, if you happen to have any of the WE6SN7 on hand, new or old (WE6SN7 or WE6SN7plus), then run one as the input tube on the amp and see what you think. It will be a tad bit warmer than the black treasures, but have all the detail. Or not... just enjoy
-
UPDATE,
My new Spatial Audio X5 speakers have arrived. Clayton did a special one for me the Polish oil caps. I have 20 hours on them. Whoa... integrated amp drives the dickens out of them. Very special combo. More as I run the speakers for another 100 hours, but I am VERY impressed, even at this early point!
cheers,
Don
-
ok, so i saw the 6P3S-E tubes mentioned in this thread. i'm presently thoroughly enjoying 6 per channel in my mesa baron. great sound, and very stable. the fact that i got them in matched sextets for $160 shipped for the two sextets didn't hurt either. ;)
doug s.
Vendor?
-
That is one reason my amp and the integrated amp are auto biasing:) You can use any 4 output tubes and unless a tube is so far outside any normal bias range the amp really doesn't care and will happily bias 4 wildly different tubes. So far I have never seen any tube either amp will not bias, but there is probably one out there somewhere. So you don't have to pay tons for matched quads of tubes that are often all over the map when you buy 10 or 12 of them... like the 6P3S-E. Or you have to pay someone considerably more for matching them correctly. I remember the days of finding a single tube to go with three vintage tubes in a vintage amp.... there was always one tube that would never bias hot enough, and another that was too hot. You never want to be at the limit of a bias pot in any direction.
-
That is one reason my amp and the integrated amp are auto biasing:) You can use any 4 output tubes and unless a tube is so far outside any normal bias range the amp really doesn't care and will happily bias 4 wildly different tubes. So far I have never seen any tube either amp will not bias, but there is probably one out there somewhere. So you don't have to pay tons for matched quads of tubes that are often all over the map when you buy 10 or 12 of them... like the 6P3S-E. Or you have to pay someone considerably more for matching them correctly. I remember the days of finding a single tube to go with three vintage tubes in a vintage amp.... there was always one tube that would never bias hot enough, and another that was too hot. You never want to be at the limit of a bias pot in any direction.
:thumb:
-
Feel better, Doug. That’s what I did after surgery. Probably had my McCormack amp.
my mesa baron does allow for adjustment of bias & balance, but yes, it's nice to have the tubes close, to start. yes, according to the one seller i mentioned, a pair of matched sextets at $200 total, is ~25-30% more than if i just bought 12 tubes. but still a reasonable price, imo. i guess i could buy 4 or five quads to make sure i get 12 that are close, instead of getting the specially matched sextets and have extra spares. but honestly, even at $200, i think it's a freaking bargain to be able to retube this amp w/such great tubes.
an injury has meant i've been spending much time in the living room on a hella-comfortable big sofa, w/the main system and the baron being on 24/7 for 11 days now. and, while i've checked the balance/bias twice w/the easy to read switch & meters, no adjustment has been needed.
doug s.
That is one reason my amp and the integrated amp are auto biasing:) You can use any 4 output tubes and unless a tube is so far outside any normal bias range the amp really doesn't care and will happily bias 4 wildly different tubes. So far I have never seen any tube either amp will not bias, but there is probably one out there somewhere. So you don't have to pay tons for matched quads of tubes that are often all over the map when you buy 10 or 12 of them... like the 6P3S-E. Or you have to pay someone considerably more for matching them correctly. I remember the days of finding a single tube to go with three vintage tubes in a vintage amp.... there was always one tube that would never bias hot enough, and another that was too hot. You never want to be at the limit of a bias pot in any direction.