AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Speakers => Topic started by: WEEZ on January 23, 2007, 03:39:05 PM
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Either commercial or otherwise?
A couple of posts seemed to hint that that may be the case....
WEEZ
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I have these nifty, sweet sounding TL's from Holland. Should I invite the builder, a really nice young guy who's English is excellent, to join? Your call.
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I think the spirit is "come one, come all", as long as you're not a jackass. :D
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Hi shep,
That would be Carl's decision...I only posted this 'cause in the Speaker review section, one of the posters seemed to be a builder of speakers, and i was curious...
WEEZ
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I haven't built any myself, but am very interested in a thread on the topic. I'd like to start playing with Open Baffles, and possibly some horns.
Let's go find 'em!
-M
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I built the TNT Big Fun Box with the Fostex 206E 8" whizzered, paper driver. It was my main speaker for a few months but more importantly it proved a seminal shift in my thought processes and quest for my own perfect sound.
For me, the wideband, efficient, mostly XOverless sound proved a revelation and one I'm not likely to recant.
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I think the spirit is "come one, come all", as long as you're not a jackass. :D
That already leaves some of us out. :lol:
Lin
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I think the spirit is "come one, come all", as long as you're not a jackass. :D
I'm cool... I think the above should be our motto.... I'm not picky, though... so at least people who KNOW they're a-holes are welcome also ;)
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For me, the wideband, efficient, mostly XOverless sound proved a revelation and one I'm not likely to recant.
I have had VMPS RM40s for about 2 1/2 years and last spring bought a $2k pair of hybrid mono blocks to go with them (quite well I might add), only to discover, within weeks of getting the new amps, single drivers and OB. ](*,)
My large speakers and nice amps are now mostly collecting dust.
I do have 2 listening rooms, so I plan on separating the two, but I have a pretty good idea which ones I will listen to most.
Lin :D / :(
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Hi Guys,
I built a Zalytron speaker kit last year called the 'Phenomenals'. I put them together but had the cabinet and xovers built professionally. I probably wouldn't recommend the zalytron kits as i had lots of problems with the xover.
Apparently their was a mistake with a resistor value in the tweeter section of the xover and once it was corrected it did sound quite good imo. It uses a Raven 2 ribbon tweeter and 2 x 6.5 inch phl mid/bass drivers in a tmm floorstander configuration.
In total the speakers cost me about $2000us which i think is reasonable considering the sound quality i'm obtaining from my system.
Regards
Rod
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i built a pair of rick craig standmounts and a standup corner cabinet for my vmps large sub
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Hi Rosconey,
I just read your other thread regarding your rick craig designed speakers. If they rise to the occasion everytime you do an upgrade then they are excellent speakers.
I sold my war audio speakers (raven 1 tweeter and 2 x 7 inch kevlar mid/bass drivers in largish stand mounted cabinet) as i had them for 7 years and i was a little bored with them. They sounded great.
The new speakers are more transparent but they lack a little in the bass compared to my previous speakers. I'm thinking of adding a subwoofer.
Regards
Rod
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-Peerless MTM with a madisound leap xover ~ 13 years ago
-Too many car subs to remember
-Dayton MT a couple months ago for the woodshop, not bad for little money, the dayton mid had great bass, perfect for the shop
-Insignia drivers with dennis murphy xover with dayton 8" powered subs in towers for movie/TV system
-Main system is magnepans, but I would love to build a set of cone dipoles, hopefully next winter. I should start a thread for opinions.
Ryan
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I'd like to try something that would be a real 'sleeper'. Maximum bass in a small cabinet. Kinda like the Exodus Kit 61....
There are some designs @ www.rjbaudio.com
Interesting website. (click on projects) :)
WEEZ
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http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=12992
I'm looking for the same thing Weez. For my second system I need a two way sealed with a F3 ~ 60-63 Hz. In my small room with speaks very close to the front wall and my head very close to the rear wall, every ported speaker I've tried is boomy. The link above is for an extremis, probably more expensive than the kit 61, higher xover part count. The Selah SSR would be the bomb, but I can't swing the price right now. GR's new M-165x driver looks really nice too, RAW is supposed to have a kit with this soon.
Any others?
Ryan
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Ryno,
In the link you provided, it looks like he built those sealed....did I read that correctly?
WEEZ
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http://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=9891&highlight=adire+extremis
Weez
This is the first thread where the design was made. It's kind of long, but at the end he shows pictures of his ported boxes, HUGE.
I think I remember something about the guy going to school, maybe he needed smaller boxes for that. Looked like the baffle size was the same, so the xover should be the same.
Ryan
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I've not built any for a long long time. I may be building some in the near future. Thinking of working with Rick Craig of Selah on a custom design.
I just got his SSR's in as a trial and demo set for the STL guys to check out. I'll post the findings once I get a good handle on them. They're available as a kit or prefinished. The ones he sent are in piano black and are gorgeous.
Bryan
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Bryan,
Can't wait to hear your comments. As you may remember, we exchanged e-mails re: the ScanSpeak mid/woofs.
(I wonder how an Extemis 6.8 or a SS Revelator would match up with an OW1fs....)
WEEZ
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You're reading my mind WEEZ. I'm thinking about a 2.5 way with 2 7" SS Revelators and an OW1. Still wrestling with ideas before I get with Rick.
Bryan
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I'll bet if the OW1fs (ferro version) was used with the 7" Revelator in the SSR box, you could use a 2.5khz c/o point 4th order. Dennis Murphy estimated maybe a 2nd order @ 3khz. :)
I'll also bet you wouldn't need much of a pad on the tweet either....
In room response would be pretty deep..no sub required. :D
=P~
WEEZ
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So Bryan, any comments on the SSR's? Inquiring minds....
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They're still breaking in. I just have them upstairs at this point. Don't want to say too much until I get them on my good equipment and in a controlled room environment.
I will say that they have an exceptional bottom end - which is to be expected with that woofer. I'll have more in a couple of weeks. Am supposed to get my Stratos Extreme Mono SE's next week so more breakin there.
Bryan
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:D
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One thing I will say is that they're really surprising me just on a receiver right now. My Snells didn't perform well at all with the receiver compared to my good system. Very 'blah' (technical term there :roll: ) - no life, no dynamics, no bottom end, typical mosfet mist sound. The SSRs don't sound that way at all. I'm suspecting they're a lot easier to drive than the specs would indicate.
Can't wait to get some real juice on them and a good source/DAC/pre and see what they'll do.
Bryan
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The impedence curve is sure friendly, allright. That makes a bigger difference than sensitivity, IMO....
Looking forward to further thoughts.
WEEZ!
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Ryno,
I've read thru the links you posted...sounds like he built (2) versions...first one ported in a really deep box; second one sealed in a smaller (but still relatively large) box.
Anyway, FWIW..I've communicated with both the designer and users of the NSM Model 10 and Model 10S speakers. (I've actually heard the Model 15 at a friend's a few years back). For a small room, these sealed speakers would be a good option. These speakers are no joke.
www.nsmaudio.com
I am biased..I really like sealed speakers. They integrate well into any sized room easier than ported boxes- at least in my experience. My Merlin TSM's play in small and large rooms equally well.
WEEZ
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They look nice Weez, but a little spendy for the bedroom system. The SSR's are the most I'm willing to go, maybe even too high. I priced out the extremis/seas from:
http://home.twcny.rr.com/cnydga/extremis.html
It's about $440 before shipping. We'll see. :)
Ryan
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gonna build 'em sealed?
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Anything for this room has to be sealed. 10'x12'x9', speakers on a dresser, with the fronts about 1.5' from the wall, and the listening position up against the rear wall. Lots of boom. Everything I've tried ported was too much bass. Right now I have a pair of kit 41's from DIY cable sealed because ported was too much. My only worry with the extremis is the 80db sensitivity, all I have is 30 watts. But for a bedroom system I don't need it too loud.
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Ryno,
Sensitivity shouldn't matter much in a small room. Hell, I don't think it matters much in a larger room. I used 20wpc solid state for a while with my Merlins (rated 87db..but closer to 85/86) and at any 'sane' volume level..it worked just fine.
The Extremis 6.8 has an easy impedence curve..you just might have MORE bass than the room can stand! :oops:
WEEZ
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Hey WEEZ.
Guess it depends on listening habits. I listen at 'sane' volumes most of the time but sometimes I like to 'rock out'. I want my amp/speakers to be capable of 100db plus for the times I get crazy with things.
Bryan
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Bryan, I hear you..but Ryno said his room is 10X12...
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Weez
I saw you were asking about the GR M165x on AC.
Same F3 sealed as the extremis with higher sensitivity and half the price.
If I found plans with this I'd be all over it.
Ryan
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What's the F3 sealed...?
Wonder if Danny has any designs yet... :?:
As an aside; my TSM's are -2@55, -3@50, -4@45, and -10@35. They have no where near the x-max of either the Extremis or the M165X, for that matter... and they produce satisfying bass for my needs w/o a sub.
I really like the slow roll-off of sealed speakers; 'in-room' response is more 'natural' sounding to me than "some' ported designs..not all. It depends on how you place 'em.....
Can't wait to hear what you come up with, Ryno.
...and bpape; keep us posted on those SSR's :!:
WEEZ!
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Calculated, -3@64Hz. Are your numbers in room, or calculated? If calculated, WOW. Similar to the SSR.
I remember a post a while ago where RAW was going to do a kit with the M165X and a ribbon tweet.
Since it was a manufactered kit and not free plans, it was a little spendy, but probably very nice.
Ryan
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Ryno,
Factory number(s) one meter on axis...(in room..a bit better but the typical low end roll off of a sealed design)..pretty gradual..
Do you know what size box the 64hz is based on for the 6.8 or the 165X?
thanks,
WEEZ
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SSR's are still upstairs breaking in. Finally got my preamp back up where it should be so I'll likely move the SSRs downstairs this weekend and take a quick listen now that they have a couple hundred hours on them.
Bryan
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Bryan,
I'd be mostly interested in your comments without a sub...just the SSR's doing what they do. :D
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Oh yeah - definitely. When I put my 2 channel pre in the loop I don't run a sub or EQ - just SB to DAC to pre and full range out.
Bryan
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Do you know what size box the 64hz is based on for the 6.8 or the 165X?
I hope I did it right, just plugged into formulas with a Qtc of 0.7.
Extremis 9.6L
165X 22.6L
That's a big plus for the extremis, also, DIY cable has them for $80, so the price is closer than I thought.
Ryan
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Ryno,
9.6 sounds pretty believable. 22.6 sounds like a vented cabinet size....?
Try 16 liters in your formula..what do you get?
WEEZ
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Weez
The math was too much so I put them both in WinISD.
I took the extremis numbers fron the DIY cable site, and the M165X from GR. Assume they are right?
M165X Qtc 0.71, 23.4L or 0.85ft3, f3 64Hz, f10 37Hz
in a 16L box, Qtc 0.81, f3 65Hz, f10 41Hz
in a 10L box, Qtc 0.96, f3 70 Hz, f10 47 Hz
extremis Qtc 0.71, 9.4l or 0.33ft3, f3 64 Hz, f10 37 Hz
I guess 24L is just under a cubic foot which isn't that bad, but if you want a small box, the extremis is the way to go.
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Dunno but the vented SSR's are in the low 40's, high 30's F10. Probably 48 or so F3
Bryan
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Bryan, I bet the SSR's are better than that.
If it's the 8 ohm 7" SS driver.
sealed f3 54Hz f10 31Hz 21L
ported f3 32Hz f10 24Hz 42L
No argument, that is a special driver.
Keep us updated.
Ryan
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This is interesting...
If you look up the Scanspeak Revelator 7" at Madisound; they claim the F3 should be 50 sealed, and 35 ported. They don't mention the box size for those numbers, though. :?:
I'll bet the SSR's easlily do 35..they are in a pretty big box. (almost 30L gross inside volume :!: )
Looks like any of the (3) drivers mentioned here are fine drivers. :D
WEEZ!
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Just took a look at Rick's site. His specs say 45 F3 and 34 F10.
Bryan
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Bryan, I noticed that too. But I'll bet they go lower...at least 'in room'..if not in an absolute sense...
Still anxious to hear your comments!
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Maybe a little - will find out soon. My guess is that it's more a matter of maybe mid 30's would be f6 but the absolute F10 might not change much - more a matter of how quick the rolloff is.
I'll say that the port on these is a beast for a driver that size.
Bryan
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Carl's been holding out on me. I just found out about this site yesterday when he emailed me and mentioned it.
I've built a number of kits over the years from ACI (back when they sold kits), GR Research, most of the Exodus Audio kits , and even some of my own stuff. I hooked up with Carl a few years ago when he needed help with a subwoofer cabinet kit gone wrong. From there I built him a 5.1 system using my Micros and an 8" powered sub. And not too long ago I built him a pair of the KIT 41's which he seems to really like, although they don't do much for me.
Oh, and then I build big monsters like these for myself! :)
(http://www.radhometheater.com/photos/3way_tower_completed.jpg)
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Welcome, Brian.
Have you ever built-or heard the Kit 61? Comments?
thx,
WEEZ
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Thought I would join in even though I am very new to this. I just finished the Exodus 2641 kit a couple of weeks ago. I have to say that they do sound very clean and nice. I feel that the midrange is definately the strong point. I am a little surprised that the mid still had a lot of the natural and open sound that I heard when I was just running them straight from the amp. They have an extremely quiet background, are very detailed, and image incredibly well.
Howver, as good as they sound I just don't feel immersed in the music and therefore am not feeling any emotional involvement when listening. I think if they added another mid up top it would help in this regard. I have to feel that I am within the music in order to feel involved, which to me is what all this is about. Therefore, even though they sound more natural, are more detailed, and open I still prefer my Polk Lsi15's when listening to music. With the Polk's the music seems more 3 dimensional and submerges me, thus making me feel more emotionally involved.
For home theatre however, I think these speakers are exceptional. Those extremis's (or is it extremi) can really pound for sure. The center channel would be totally impossible to beat for anywhere near 500 CDN. I can't imagine anybody would be asking what did they say with how clear I would imaginr that center would sound.
Just me thoughts.
Thanks,
Mike
PS. I would have uploaded pictures but I can't find the manage attatchments.
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I've not built or heard the 61's yet. I've only built the 2641's and LCR's cabinets and built and heard the 41's. The 41's really don't do anything for me. I've heard some smaller speakers using the Dayton RS125's which I liked much better. They're listed as 5" drivers, but honestly are more like a 4" driver. I think they might even have the same frame diameter.
I've heard really good things about the other Exodus kits. I do prefer an MTMWW design such as my big towers though. I think the added efficiency as well as the greater SPL capabilities give you more "you're there" feeling. I know when my wife pops in her Phantom of the Opera Soundtrack and cranks it we actually feel as if we're in the concert hall. I'm sure part of this is the overall design, which is has a very flat frequency response. I don't have any clue how the 2641's are voiced. It would be interesting to see if Kevin would design a MTMWW version of the 2641's and how they compare to one another.
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Mike L,
Maybe your 2641's just need to be 'worked-in' a bit? From what you describe, it sounds like a possibility....
Brian,
I was thinking about helping my son build the Kit 61's. He's a graduate student (and a broke one, at that). They look like a speaker that he could use in smaller spaces and get the deeper bass he likes without having to use a sub. Hell be in a smaller apartment for the next two years.
Hell, maybe the 61's will go TOO deep for a small room. Dunno....
WEEZ
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Everything I've heard about the Extremis 6.8 says it's pretty awesome at bass reproduction. I wish I had the opportunity to hear them but unless someone wants me to build a pair for them I doubt that'll happen. Based on the sims I've done of the driver in a monitor sized cabinet, I imagine it'll work quite well without a sub in smaller rooms.
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Just a hint for you all if you have not seen on Kevins forum (DIY AUDIO)
The Exodus kits will not be based around the extremis or WR drivers any longer.
And from what I know if you have the tweeters you are lucky.As PE is the only supplier and as been out of stock for a long time.
Bob from CSS was the supplier for all the kits for along time but as the directions are changing for Bob it did not warrent ordering in several hundred tweeters just to supply Exodus kits.
So Bob ordered in the new SD12 driver plus a new XBL^2 15" .Better choice.
Back to the kits if you have the tweeters or can get them all the best.
The Kit 41's well have to agree they were ok for the money but really that combo (same drivers) I did a design for RMAF a few years ago and used a second order crossover on both the woofer and the tweeter.Which sounded a lot different than the kit 41.
:wink:
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Sorry Brian
Nice looking design :lol:
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Hi Al,
Are the new drivers GR?
WEEZ
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Al do you know if Usher is planning on stopping production of them that PE would stop carrying it, as it is a very good tweeter for the money?
Thanks,
Mike
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I have no idea if they are doing anything with over all production.
But I do know like I said Kevin is moving away from all therivers used in those designs.Even the tweeter.
The sad thing Bob from CSS ordered a few dozen and when PE did get the shipment of Ushers tweeters he only recieved 6? Boy o boy sure can sell kits that way?
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Dual ported cabinets I guess. :D
Mike
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To those with 2641's, could you get by without a sub for HT use? I have a 2 channel TV system with a 120wpc NAD and a behringer 2496 EQ in a small to medium sized room. I'd dont really have room for a sub, but dont really need super low bass.
Thanks, Ryan
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I don't think you would be complaining. Those little extremis can pound it pretty good. I personally would classify these as exceptional home theatre speakers. If all you are using these for is home theatre maybe you could turn the port around to make it rear ported and it would give you more....very boomy but more. Some of the speaker gurus can comment on that suggestion however.
Mike
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I've not built any for a long long time. I may be building some in the near future. Thinking of working with Rick Craig of Selah on a custom design.
I just got his SSR's in as a trial and demo set for the STL guys to check out. I'll post the findings once I get a good handle on them. They're available as a kit or prefinished. The ones he sent are in piano black and are gorgeous.
Bryan
I too have built a few of Rick Craig's designs along with more public domain DIY designs than I care to mention. As far as commercial "kit" speakers go Rick is on heck of a speaker designer and he practically gives his design work away for the retail price of the drivers and parts. Get them while they are hot, the bargain kits from Selah might not last too much longer. This is not meant to be a plug for Selah but they are worth a look.
I've got a little blog type thing going here (http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=37706.0)on about a pair of Selah speakers I'm in the process of building. Seas Nextel Excel 5" mds, ScanSpeak 6600 AirCirc tweeter and Seas L26 Aluminum bass drivers in an mtmww cabinet.
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I was thinking of building the Peridot before. Seems like a very good bargain. However, ideally I would prefer a MTMW configuration, even though my room is too small. My next build will definately be atleast a MTM as I prefer the higher soundstage you get with drivers above tweeter/ear level. Somebody has the RC5 on order in my hometown and Rick is going to give him/her my email address so hopefully I will be able to hear/see them......Please, Please!
I would like to one day do a MTM with the ScanSpeak revelator slit paper drivers. I have seen a kit offering this but I would like to do it as a transmission line much like the Seas Thor. I would think it would have very good output down low and sound smoooooth.
Thanks,
Mike
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I have had VMPS RM40s for about 2 1/2 years and last spring bought a $2k pair of hybrid mono blocks to go with them (quite well I might add), only to discover, within weeks of getting the new amps, single drivers and OB. ](*,)
My large speakers and nice amps are now mostly collecting dust.
I do have 2 listening rooms, so I plan on separating the two, but I have a pretty good idea which ones I will listen to most.
Lin :D / :(
Gosh, if I had known the potentials of OB or making DIY speakers, I would have saved myself a bundle of dough from purchasing commercial speakers.
The problem with Fullrange, single driver speaker ventures....the outlay of $$$ if so much less than buying commercial boxed speakers, that one becomes a hoarder of other sort of equipment, raw drivers! Ouch. :twisted: