AudioNervosa
Specialists => Audiologists => Topic started by: dBe on July 24, 2017, 10:43:41 PM
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We all need help in some aspect of audio. I'm ignorant about many things, like tone arms and cartridges. I sold all of my analog playback some years ago. Duh.
How about room acoustics? Brian Pape has checked in and I'm sure would love a good discussion.
Psychoacoustic so, why should we care.
Building or renovating a room for audio?
Need help with a Mac mini as a music server?
Non-resonant speaker cabinet construction?
How about mechanical grounding or component isolation?
Measurements: which ones really matter?
Is flat response desire able or even musical?
How much does group delay in a speaker matter?
Speaker design?
Is a funk range driver cool or what? If so, which ones work for you and why?
Subwoofers? Why, which and what ones?
Materials and their characteristics. What does that matter.
Are shielded interconnects necessary or even matter?
There are ton of subjects. Do we are or trust others opinions?
I could go on and on...
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My head just exploded :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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We all need help in some aspect of audio. I'm ignorant about many things, like tone arms and cartridges. I sold all of my analog playback some years ago. Duh.
How about room acoustics? Brian Pape has checked in and I'm sure would love a good discussion.
Psychoacoustic so, why should we care.
Building or renovating a room for audio?
Need help with a Mac mini as a music server?
Non-resonant speaker cabinet construction?
How about mechanical grounding or component isolation?
Measurements: which ones really matter?
Is flat response desire able or even musical?
How much does group delay in a speaker matter?
Speaker design?
Is a funk range driver cool or what? If so, which ones work for you and why?
Subwoofers? Why, which and what ones?
Materials and their characteristics. What does that matter.
Are shielded interconnects necessary or even matter?
There are ton of subjects. Do we are or trust others opinions?
I could go on and on...
Wow, lots to digest. My area of interest would be unshielded cables. My cables are unshielded and have a slight hum occasionally. Move them a slight amount and I can no longer hear the hum. But, on a micro level, would the right shielding erase noise even more. It's hard to fathom decreasing noise more as the Uber has been terrific in that regard. Unfortunately, I don't have quality shielded cables to compare to.
Nick
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Nice thread, dBe :thumb:
SN
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Yeah, I think we all need help.
Just step over here and lay down on this couch. Exactly how long have you had this obsession........ :rofl:
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Yeah, I think we all need help.
Just step over here and lay down on this couch. Exactly how long have you had this obsession........ :rofl:
Since 1963.
Hi. My name is Dave and I'm a high end audio addict.
Where is my 54 year coin?
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Been a very long day for da' Geeze. Back tomorrow.
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We all definitely need help! I'm no longer with GIK and back out on my own getting my acoustics biz back going. I'll be happy to help however I can.
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We all definitely need help! I'm no longer with GIK and back out on my own getting my acoustics biz back going. I'll be happy to help however I can.
Hey man great to have you back. You always helped out here.
charles
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So I'll bite... with a move that seems at times recent, but in reality a few years ago... we ended up having to downsize a bit, and now have a single room for video and audio (converted spare bedroom)...
Due to space constraints, have migrated to a 2.1 setup...
Sources: Oppo BDP-83, Apple TV Gen 4 and 3 feeding an HDMI switch. Video feed sent to a projector, audio optical out to an old Marantz SR7000 receiver. Speakers: Onix Mini Strata, and an old HSU Research Tube Subwoofer.
Room has an alcove that looks something like
|---------|
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|
Screen is centered in the alcove... speakers out from far back... front of speaker are in front of the horizontal wall to the left.
Technology has long passed us by, and it's time to make some improvements. I tend to like to keep things "simple" and don't want a ton of separates. The plan is to keep the stereo configuration, with likely a sub. Another constraint -
I'm cheap.
A couple options:
1) Do nothing approach - room constraints abound... throwing a bunch of money is probably not warranted. Could be better put to upgrading the 10yr old projector.
2) Mini Evolution - Get an inexpensive DAC (Possibly Schiit Modi Multibit)... have optical out from HDMI switch feed the DAC, and then add a RPI3 for streaming music, and feed that to USB input of DAC. DAC could then feed existing receiver. Probably a fair upgrade for $300-$350 across for the DAC and RPI.
3) Do #2, but replace the Marantz with a "new" stereo integrated amp - Did I mention I want/need volume control? Remote would be nice, but since this is a converted spare bedroom, it's not a ton of effort for me to pick my lazy tush off the couch and turn a knob.
4) Buy a refurb Marantz SR70XX from accessories for less, get rid of the HDMI switch, ditch the idea of a new DAC, and then feed all the sources into the Marantz. This would be the cleanest option. Seems like a waste of $$$ for all the extra channels, and HT Room correction SW that will never be used.
5) Similar to #4, but look for an Arcam Stereo Receiver... this is way over budget.... but I like the concept of a simple stereo integrated with a modest # of HDMI inputs.
6) Something I haven't even considered...
Opinions? Thoughts? Advice?
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So I'll bite... with a move that seems at times recent, but in reality a few years ago... we ended up having to downsize a bit, and now have a single room for video and audio (converted spare bedroom)...
Due to space constraints, have migrated to a 2.1 setup...
Sources: Oppo BDP-83, Apple TV Gen 4 and 3 feeding an HDMI switch. Video feed sent to a projector, audio optical out to an old Marantz SR7000 receiver. Speakers: Onix Mini Strata, and an old HSU Research Tube Subwoofer.
Room has an alcove that looks something like
|---------|
-------| |
|
Screen is centered in the alcove... speakers out from far back... front of speaker are in front of the horizontal wall to the left.
Technology has long passed us by, and it's time to make some improvements. I tend to like to keep things "simple" and don't want a ton of separates. The plan is to keep the stereo configuration, with likely a sub. Another constraint -
I'm cheap.
A couple options:
1) Do nothing approach - room constraints abound... throwing a bunch of money is probably not warranted. Could be better put to upgrading the 10yr old projector.
2) Mini Evolution - Get an inexpensive DAC (Possibly Schiit Modi Multibit)... have optical out from HDMI switch feed the DAC, and then add a RPI3 for streaming music, and feed that to USB input of DAC. DAC could then feed existing receiver. Probably a fair upgrade for $300-$350 across for the DAC and RPI.
3) Do #2, but replace the Marantz with a "new" stereo integrated amp - Did I mention I want/need volume control? Remote would be nice, but since this is a converted spare bedroom, it's not a ton of effort for me to pick my lazy tush off the couch and turn a knob.
4) Buy a refurb Marantz SR70XX from accessories for less, get rid of the HDMI switch, ditch the idea of a new DAC, and then feed all the sources into the Marantz. This would be the cleanest option. Seems like a waste of $$$ for all the extra channels, and HT Room correction SW that will never be used.
5) Similar to #4, but look for an Arcam Stereo Receiver... this is way over budget.... but I like the concept of a simple stereo integrated with a modest # of HDMI inputs.
6) Something I haven't even considered...
Opinions? Thoughts? Advice?
I figured by now that others would have jumped in on this, but since they didn't I'll give it a shot.
Looking at the ASCII room illustration and knowing about the geometry of most bedrooms, I would go with plan #2. That DAC is a stone steal @ $250.00 and gives you all of the options. I'm not a fan of Toslink, but hey: it's what you have.
You are primarily limited by the room restraints, so I'd probably up grade the projector with an eye to the future when and if you get to have a room with better symmetry.
Oh, yeah. Put some type of absorber on the right hand wall at the first reflection point to kill some of the early return from that wall. If you don't the image will be skewed to that side.
Who else wants to tak a stab at this?
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I agree, I think a DAC upgrade is you best bet right now.
And if you are going to use a Toslink digital connection you have to check out the Analysis Plus fiber cable being sold by Audio Advisor. I am stuck with Toslink between my Bluesound Node and the EE DAC. I have never been a big fan of Toslink, but ths cable was a game changer for me. it may not be as good as a top shelf RCA SPDIF cable, but it sure is better than any other glass cable I have ever listened to. And is is only $55 for a 2M cable. And if the price is not enough to sell you, it even comes with a 30 day return policy.
No reason not to give give it a try.
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How about mechanical grounding or component isolation?
Dave, this is one area I'd like help. I've always wanted to build my own rack/shelf/isolation base. Don't know how though. Would even make sense to try to go the DIY route. What I'd really like is something like this:
http://www.timbernation.com/isolationplatforms_popup.html
But can this be done cheaper and in an environmentally sensible way say with just MDF or other similar materials?
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Looking at the ASCII room illustration and knowing about the geometry of most bedrooms, I would go with plan #2. That DAC is a stone steal @ $250.00 and gives you all of the options. I'm not a fan of Toslink, but hey: it's what you have.
You liked the ASCII art eh? :) I'm showing my age. I'll put together a better drawing over the weekend.
The Toslink would only be for video sources, so I'm less concerned about that. I could leverage USB via a RPI for audio. That DAC doesn't do DSD... seems like if one wants DSD support and switchable inputs, prices on options tend to jump a bit.
The TEAC UD-301 is an option... starting to hit the upper end of what I want to spend at the moment. I'm just starting to look at used options as well.
Edit: And thanks for the advice!
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I agree, I think a DAC upgrade is you best bet right now.
And if you are going to use a Toslink digital connection you have to check out the Analysis Plus fiber cable being sold by Audio Advisor. I am stuck with Toslink between my Bluesound Node and the EE DAC. I have never been a big fan of Toslink, but ths cable was a game changer for me. it may not be as good as a top shelf RCA SPDIF cable, but it sure is better than any other glass cable I have ever listened to. And is is only $55 for a 2M cable. And if the price is not enough to sell you, it even comes with a 30 day return policy.
No reason not to give give it a try.
Thanks for the pointer and advice! I have a couple on hand already - actually, I would reuse the cable from HDMI splitter to the Marantz, and then use some RCA cables I made from DAC to the Marantz... a stop gap if you will.
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How about mechanical grounding or component isolation?
Dave, this is one area I'd like help. I've always wanted to build my own rack/shelf/isolation base. Don't know how though. Would even make sense to try to go the DIY route. What I'd really like is something like this:
http://www.timbernation.com/isolationplatforms_popup.html
But can this be done cheaper and in an environmentally sensible way say with just MDF or other similar materials?
I've tried all kinds of materials over the years and MDF is not a great choice. It can be OK if used as a layer in constrained layer construction, but alone it just sounds like mud IME.
I've always been a fan of maple, but ONLY hard maple, not the soft type. Hard maple (also known as rock maple has a Janka hardness of ~ 1450 whereas soft maple is ~ 850. Harder woods tent to sound more "lively" than the softer species.
I am a huge fan of mesquite, but it is hard to find in 6/4 or 8/4 thicknesses and is pretty expensive when compared to other species.
Black walnut is cool with a more midrange voice.
One place that you might think about trying is a granite fabricator. The sink cutouts can be dressed to size and it is surprisingly good in sound and leaves lots of final voicing to different footers, etc.
Basically, wood shelves need to be addressed like guitar tonewods. We speak of "tap tone" in woods. Woods that go "flunk" go into the fireplace. Woods that have a resonant, pleasing tones are the ones to experiment with for shelving. I've spent years trying to figure woods out and at my advanced age I think I am finally getting a handle on what will sound good in use.
Got a dark system - go for a very hard wood. Bright - something softer.
Oh, yeah. Some butcher blocks can sound very good, you just have to take a chance sometimes. Maple and oak are readily available at many wood suppliers.
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I have my TT sitting on a piece of 2" maple butcher block. I bought it for my wife to put in the kitchen, but when it arrived my son said "Dad, you're not going to put that in the kitchen before you try it under the TT are you?" Well it sounded much better thn the TT did sitting on the slate that I had it on. So I ordered another one for the kitchen and when I called the company back to ordeer the second cutting board within a week I explained to the sales rep why he told me that when used as a cutting board they recommended oiling the butcher block once a month and that the butcher block would dry out and start to separate if I did not do this , unless I sealed it with polyurethane, which was OK to do since I would not be using it for food prep.
So I set out to stain the butcher block to match the wood cabinet it was sitting on and finish it with a nice satin poly. My with was a good sport and let me keep her new butcher block under the TT while I finished the other piece. When it was ready to be swapped in I gave the TT a listen on the unfinished butcher block and played the same cut again once the finished butcher block was in place. And damned if they didn't sound different. I can't say that one sounded better than the other, but it was obvious that they were not the same (and both were better than the original slate base. I guess if I had really wanted to I could have done further evaluations and determined which one was "better", but my wife had been very patient and the unfinished block was going into the kitchen that night no matter what.
Most people would think that we are crazy to think that the material that a TT sits on can change the way it sounds, but it still makes me shake my head to think that putting about a 1/4 oz of polyurethane onto a 20 lb chunk of butcher block can also affect the sound. :roll:
But that's the wacky hobby that we have chose to fill our spare time.
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Maybe you need to go to 3" mine is 27lbs from Dawn's bb on e bay finished poly. Sounds great.
What do you have under the bb? Mine was baptized in the church. :thumb:
Color of stain might help too?
Trying to be productive of course.
Yahaaaaa :rofl:
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But that's the wacky hobby that we have chose to fill our spare time.
Spare time... what's that!?! :duh
SN
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Over the years I have experimented with numerous materials for plinths, shelves and footers. I will agree with Dave about the sonic results of hard and soft woods.
If one decides to experiment keep the following in mind. Use similar but dis-similar materials when in contact with each other. The most effective TT set up we have experienced is a wood box filled with sand using a wood plinth covered in dynamat. Either a maple or Bamboo plinth. The box should be a minimum of 4" deep. Plinth 2" th. minimum. All shold sit on a steel stand [ grounded] or old steel speaker stand with spikes.
With footers try the similar but dissimilar materials meaning if you use a Maple plinth try Ebony or other hard wood cones. Alum. blocks will transfer the vibes from a component to the plinth the most effective.
Brass footers to my ears has always been bright. Sorbothane dark. Experiment and have fun.
charles
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I've tried all kinds of materials over the years and MDF is not a great choice. It can be OK if used as a layer in constrained layer construction, but alone it just sounds like mud IME.
I've always been a fan of maple, but ONLY hard maple, not the soft type. Hard maple (also known as rock maple has a Janka hardness of ~ 1450 whereas soft maple is ~ 850. Harder woods tent to sound more "lively" than the softer species.
Black walnut is cool with a more midrange voice.
One place that you might think about trying is a granite fabricator. The sink cutouts can be dressed to size and it is surprisingly good in sound and leaves lots of final voicing to different footers, etc.
Got a dark system - go for a very hard wood. Bright - something softer.
Oh, yeah. Some butcher blocks can sound very good, you just have to take a chance sometimes. Maple and oak are readily available at many wood suppliers.
Interesting stuff! I've always wondered why manufacturers went for hardwoods. Thanks!
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I have my TT sitting on a piece of 2" maple butcher block. I bought it for my wife to put in the kitchen, but when it arrived my son said "Dad, you're not going to put that in the kitchen before you try it under the TT are you?" Well it sounded much better thn the TT did sitting on the slate that I had it on. So I ordered another one for the kitchen and when I called the company back to ordeer the second cutting board within a week I explained to the sales rep why he told me that when used as a cutting board they recommended oiling the butcher block once a month and that the butcher block would dry out and start to separate if I did not do this , unless I sealed it with polyurethane, which was OK to do since I would not be using it for food prep.
Most people would think that we are crazy to think that the material that a TT sits on can change the way it sounds, but it still makes me shake my head to think that putting about a 1/4 oz of polyurethane onto a 20 lb chunk of butcher block can also affect the sound. :roll:
I have a small Boos Block that I'm planning to experiment on. It's unfinished and might do as you did with the polyurethane. Did you use any special material as a footer?
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Bamboo...Boos blocks including wipe on polyurethane gel. Learning lots of new things.
Thanks!!
Nick
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Boos blocks ??
charles
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Boos blocks ??
Basically, they're the "MonsterAudio" of kitchen cutting boards.
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I have my TT sitting on a piece of 2" maple butcher block. I bought it for my wife to put in the kitchen, but when it arrived my son said "Dad, you're not going to put that in the kitchen before you try it under the TT are you?" Well it sounded much better thn the TT did sitting on the slate that I had it on. So I ordered another one for the kitchen and when I called the company back to ordeer the second cutting board within a week I explained to the sales rep why he told me that when used as a cutting board they recommended oiling the butcher block once a month and that the butcher block would dry out and start to separate if I did not do this , unless I sealed it with polyurethane, which was OK to do since I would not be using it for food prep.
So I set out to stain the butcher block to match the wood cabinet it was sitting on and finish it with a nice satin poly. My with was a good sport and let me keep her new butcher block under the TT while I finished the other piece. When it was ready to be swapped in I gave the TT a listen on the unfinished butcher block and played the same cut again once the finished butcher block was in place. And damned if they didn't sound different. I can't say that one sounded better than the other, but it was obvious that they were not the same (and both were better than the original slate base. I guess if I had really wanted to I could have done further evaluations and determined which one was "better", but my wife had been very patient and the unfinished block was going into the kitchen that night no matter what.
Most people would think that we are crazy to think that the material that a TT sits on can change the way it sounds, but it still makes me shake my head to think that putting about a 1/4 oz of polyurethane onto a 20 lb chunk of butcher block can also affect the sound. :roll:
But that's the wacky hobby that we have chose to fill our spare time.
What you heard was the influence of a plastic finish on hardwood.
We've known about this in the musical instrument realm for years. This is why the finest instruments are finished with unplasticized lacquers and lacquer sanding sealers. They craze over years, but tat is a small price to pay for free resonance. That is only one of the reasons that a bana fide '59 Les Paul sounds so much better than a Gibson Custom Shop R9. The new replicas are sealed with a vinyl sealer under the nitrocellulose lacquer with added plasticizers to prevent the finish crazing. The harder the finish, the better... Poly is my least favorite finish for anything even vaguely musical.
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Brass instruments including flutes and saxes use silver and even gold plating to avoid the overtone-damping lacquer coat. Nitrocellose is wood fiber dissolved in solvent and that solvent released into the atmosphere is basically illegal for professional use, so modern brass instrument lacquer is really just acrylic now. It still flakes off anyway. When I saw Miles play at the big "Live Aid" concert he was playing a trumpet with dark red transparent lacquer. At least that's what it looked like from half mile away.
String instruments made of wood are far more susceptible to damage from varying humidity, so they need a waterproof protective layer. To avoid damping the complex overtones they avoid plastic coatings and turn to natural tree resins and oils. For the tweeky audiophile interpretation of this how 'bout some Charles Altmann? (http://www.mother-of-tone.com/lacquer.htm)
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Thanks for that detailed information. I enjoy trying to understand why things work...or don't.
The Charles Altman site is fascinating
Nick
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Psychoacoustic so, why should we care.
If you are meaning we fool ourselves while listening, I would not care. Someone recently had the opportunity to ask the "experts" at least 4 times this question concerning dbt/abx testing. (This was on another forum.) There is more information though out this post concerning "scientific" dbt/abx testing.
From another forum:
How can one obtain 90% confidence when 50% of a group are positioned in bass increasing areas, and 50% are in bass decreasing areas?
Every single "expert" dodged the question, time after time. Never did get a response.
Of course, one has to also address variable confounds such as cochlea fatigue (tired ear), habituation to stimuli (after 2 or 3 ABs, will tend to sound the same), spl, type, quality of recordings, bandwidth, echoes etc.
If one checks out books, websites, only "sight" is listed as a variable confound, so one will never perform a correct test procedure, so the conclusion will virtually always be no sonic difference. Just a typical marketing tatic.
Measurements: which ones really matter?
I suppose power output, frequency response because some are down a db at 20khz etc. Harmonic distortion since a few might be high at 1 watt output. Also depends upon which harmonics are involved.
Is flat response desire able or even musical?
I would say flat, but just my opinion. I have a caveat, that +/- 0.1db means virtually nothing. Varying the FR by 0,2db is like varying the frequency response only around 54db down from the fundamental.
Personally, I am tweaking the frequency response (FR) 1 part in ~200,000 on my speaker xovers (which equates to about ~105 - 110db down), and less than 0,2% on cap values in my mono block amps.
I can easily see why components "sound" different.
Speaker design?
I have found 2nd order xover is about as far as I wish to go, no 3rd order. Just too difficult to design 3rd order to sound right.
Are shielded interconnects necessary or even matter?
I do not use shielded ICs even for my turn table to phono stage. At full volume just a slight hum at the driver cone. And I live ~6 miles from megawatt tv stations. But I suppose it would not hurt to use shielded, but I prefer both to twisted.
I am sure most are probably not concerned with such minute sonic changes, but it is good to understand how sensitive our ears are. I believe that our ears are more reliable than dbt/abx tests, which are inherently flawed virtually all the time.
Cheers
Steve
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Boos Blocks are butcher block slabs for meal preparation
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Good post. The area of A/B tests has always interested me. Compared to many of you..musicians, designers etc I'm inexperienced in that regard. When I'm in a group or have a musician friend next to me for example, there's a psychological component of sometimes trying to hear what "they" hear. As my brain then gets a bit flustered trying to hear what is obvious or claimed to be obvious, I don't respond as well.
My listening is best focused in a safe, familiar environment like my home where I have as much time as I need to discern differences. If I need to repeat a song a number of times or live with a new or changing component for as long as i need, that works best for me.
Nick
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Nick,
No one has golden ears, that is not real.
We all have golden ears.
I trained my ears by doing exactly what you are doing, I would A/B tubes, caps, power cords , cables with the same track over and over again ,,over days, eventually you ears learn to hear what you are looking for. Once you get it it stays with you , you will get it , at other systems very quickly.
We train ourselves to critique everything we hear, analyzing it.
then one day you don't care so much and just enjoy the music,,,its evolutionary, but you still have the skills ,you just use them differently
the one rule in this game is to be honest, once you learn that you have become enlightened.
A friend once joked , the two rules of audio.
1) No ones system sounds as good as their own..
2) and no one likes the way their system sounds..
funny but true in so many ways, sort of reflects the insecure nature of audiophiles.
not a critique of us audiophlles but just a reflection
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WOW! What a great thread with no one calling anyone else delusional or an idiot. Instead, we had great input from people that actually know.
A couple of observations. First, the Altmann page. Ohmygosh, is he exactly right about guitars. Years ago I had a '61 Les Paul, the first year of the SG body style. Like a moron I traded it off for a '59 Telethat I subsequently sold. Both of those guitars just sang. Tone with sustain for days. I still have a '64 ES-330 and it sounds amazing with those old school P90's.
Back to the point. I have a Japanese '61 LP clone and a couple of newer Teles. None of them sound anywhere near as good as the ones finished with nitro. A project for fall is to take the Tokai '61 and strip all of the poly off and lay down a very thin finish with nitro. Easy to do for me. It didn't cost very much, the pickups are great (not stock), the neck is much better for my huge handa and it is very light. I am building another Tele style for slide that has a body I cut from western red cedar. I'll give the body and neck one coat of TruOil sealer (very, very thin and then shoot about 4 coats of clear nitro, instead of the 10-15 that was the old school way. Alcohol based aniline dyes with NO grain filler. The newer grain fillers use clay instead of powdered fish scale like in wayward times. I have finished several guitars with this method for friends and that finish gets raves for tone.
Next, I totally agree with Topround. Golden ears? No. Trained years, absolutely! My listening rant always stresses to learn to ignore the notes. Even a cheapie computer can get the notes mostly right. What is hard is the attack and then spaces between the notes. That is how to listen.
Many years ago I participated in a TDK metal tape vs. records listening test. I identified the tape 10/10 because I had been taught how to listen down to the noise floor. It was easy. Tape hiss, even with Dolby instead of surface noise. Often it is not what is there, but what isn't.
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Thanks guys. Well, then, I'll keep doing what I'm doing! I have some old test discs someplace from Stereophile and maybe Chesky that tell me what a good system should be doing. My systems have always passed those tests. But, what would really help me is a disc that demonstrates tone, signal, room abnormalities, etc. In other words, a demonstration that says "this is proper and this is not"
I've described this poorly I know, but I'm at a loss to describe it a bit better.
If there's such a disc out there, I'd like to know about it.
Thanks,
Nick
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WOW! What a great thread with no one calling anyone else delusional or an idiot. Instead, we had great input from people that actually know.
Well we can't have that dBe. The shock is just too great, so I am calling myself an idiot. So there.
Cheers
Steve
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WOW! What a great thread with no one calling anyone else delusional or an idiot. Instead, we had great input from people that actually know.
Well we can't have that dBe. The shock is just too great, so I am calling myself an idiot. So there.
Cheers
Steve
Since I tend to be an outspoken moron, we'll get along just great :thumb:
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I wish I were as dumb and as much of an idiot as Steve.
Don
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I wish I were as dumb and as much of an idiot as Steve.
Don
That's OK, Nit. We all have our place in history.
Dim
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Hi Nick, you might want to look into acquiring calibrated microphone and room measurement software like REW.
This combination will give you accurate information on frequency response and room modes which is not subject to misinterpretation in the way that conclusions drawn from listening to test CDs can be.
See links below.
Calibrated microphones from Cross Spectrum Labs.
http://www.cross-spectrum.com/
Calibrated Dayton UMM-6 USB microphone
http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umm6.html
FREE! REW room measurement software.
https://www.roomeqwizard.com/
Forum for REW, VERY HELPFUL
https://www.avnirvana.com/forums/official-rew-room-eq-wizard-support-forum.10/
Scotty
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Hi Nick, you might want to look into acquiring calibrated microphone and room measurement software like REW.
This combination will give you accurate information on frequency response and room modes which is not subject to misinterpretation in the way that conclusions drawn from listening to test CDs can be.
See links below.
Calibrated microphones from Cross Spectrum Labs.
http://www.cross-spectrum.com/
Calibrated Dayton UMM-6 USB microphone
http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umm6.html
FREE! REW room measurement software.
https://www.roomeqwizard.com/
Forum for REW, VERY HELPFUL
https://www.avnirvana.com/forums/official-rew-room-eq-wizard-support-forum.10/
Scotty
Thanks, Scotty,
I've never experimented using a mic and software. Good links and fun reading. I'm searching for a cheaper usb mic..found some good prices. Roon has a parametric equalizer and maybe thats a good place to start experimenting.
Nick
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I agree with Topround. I was in a state of tweaking and DIY'ing for about 2-3 years. I used to solder in a new cap and sit and listen critically. Yes, I trained my ears to hear everything from bass bloat to shrill highs to soundstaging and etc. It was not a pleasant way to listen, but it was what was necessary to A-B my changes.
I also found that making a change and listening wasn't enough. You have to be able to back out the change and go back to what was there originally before you could truly ascertain the benefits of that change. So A-B-A testing. Not all changes, regardless of how much you spend, are good ones.
I finally got to a place where I was tired of all that critical listening and now I just listen and enjoy what I have. That "nervosa" is essentially gone, but then again, there are years and years of tweaking behind me to get me to that point.
So I guess it is a process. You have to go through that crazy stage to get to the more relaxed one. Or maybe it's just a maturity that we can reach at some point where we say enough is enough, now let me relax and love the fruits of my labor.
-
If you have a little more time you can listen subconsciously. You just listen to music for fun, and you will notice things about the sound that annoy you, write them down. If it doesn't appear again then it's just you getting used to a change and the annoyance fades away with familiarity. If it gets worse and you start noticing it all the time and it doesn't eventually fade out then it's something to work on or upgrade.
If you listen excitedly to an upgrade for a day or two, then find you're not listening at all, have no desire to listen, then could be your change killed it and you need to put it back the way it was and try again.
Point being, if you tell your subconscious to tune the system, it will, by informing you of needed changes through feelings and noticing subtle things that you might not have heard before. In the end, it's the subconscious that listens and does everything anyway, it is what you're trying to "please." Music hastens alpha brain waves which open the door between conscious mind and subconscious which is where the creation of our lives happens. Listening to music isn't just for fun, although the action of creation is the funnest thing you can do.
Pleasuring up the sound with yummy distortion like tubes, paper cones, vinyl, transformers, etc allows the music to work that much more powerfully to induce alpha and even theta brainwaves, with practice, thus making imagination and prayer done during listening 1000 times more powerful in creating your world. Pay attention to the feelings and hunches you have about your system. Going for extreme detail and low distortion reinforces beta brainwaves, which pull you away from alpha. To each his own, we all use the stereo for different purpose. Some to get into alpha, some to avoid it. The room acoustic if understood and used to your advantage can beautify the sound to hasten and deepen trance alpha state. Read Floyd Toole's book before you go plastering the walls with FG to kill the beautiful reverb in the name of lowering distortion.
OmniMic is a nice and easy measuring system, with USB mic, software by Liberty Instruments (Bill Waslo) and support on PE forum and diyaudio.com for $300.
-
The testing process is fun...to a certain extent. It can become mentally fatiguing over time. I couldn't be a reviewer in the long run. As I'm achieving such good results over the last year or two, I am starting to yearn for a more organic or should I say distorted sound. I want more of the richness of the human voice and the texture of a violin. Which component changes will be able to deliver that, I don't know. In fact, I've never had that truly organic sound in the past...and I go back to the 80s with my audio hobby... nervosa.
I don't have a problem at all going through the process again. But there's always that issue of selling, buying different components to achieve that. It is, though, quite satisfying to be where I'm at right now
-
The testing process is fun...to a certain extent. It can become mentally fatiguing over time. I couldn't be a reviewer in the long run. As I'm achieving such good results over the last year or two, I am starting to yearn for a more organic or should I say distorted sound. I want more of the richness of the human voice and the texture of a violin. Which component changes will be able to deliver that, I don't know. In fact, I've never had that truly organic sound in the past...and I go back to the 80s with my audio hobby... nervosa.
I don't have a problem at all going through the process again. But there's always that issue of selling, buying different components to achieve that. It is, though, quite satisfying to be where I'm at right now
Nick, I have not heard you say either way, was wondering if you have exhausted tweaking the speaker placement?
Cheers
Steve
-
I wish I were as dumb and as much of an idiot as Steve.
Don
We can't all be as gifted as P.I. and me. :rofl:
Cheers
Steve
-
I keep asking myself "what am I going to futz with next?"
Futz always means $$$ :duh
-
I keep asking myself "what am I going to futz with next?"
Futz always means $$$ :duh
I consider myself lucky when it is only $$$. To often it ends up being $$$$$. :roll:
-
Hi Nick, you might want to look into acquiring calibrated microphone and room measurement software like REW.
This combination will give you accurate information on frequency response and room modes which is not subject to misinterpretation in the way that conclusions drawn from listening to test CDs can be.
See links below.
Calibrated microphones from Cross Spectrum Labs.
http://www.cross-spectrum.com/
Calibrated Dayton UMM-6 USB microphone
http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umm6.html
FREE! REW room measurement software.
https://www.roomeqwizard.com/
Forum for REW, VERY HELPFUL
https://www.avnirvana.com/forums/official-rew-room-eq-wizard-support-forum.10/
Scotty
Thanks, Scotty,
I've never experimented using a mic and software. Good links and fun reading. I'm searching for a cheaper usb mic..found some good prices. Roon has a parametric equalizer and maybe thats a good place to start experimenting.
Nick
Nick, you can pick up the miniDSP UMIK-1 mic at PartsExpress.com for $85 instead of $96 on Amazon. I bought one about a month ago but so far haven't even had a chance to take it out of the box. But, it seems like it coupled with REW and an intense learning curve and you too can learn to measure your system and room. I'm hoping to get to it soon (soon being relative ... maybe sometime in the next couple months ;-)
-
Steve glad to decided to come along. Glad I asked you. Scotty you are IMHO an expert in so many areas, please join in anytime. So far Dave, Steve, Scotty for the technical design stuff. Brian for acoustics. So far so good.
charles
-
I wish I were as dumb and as much of an idiot as Steve.
Don
We can't all be as gifted as P.I. and me. :rofl:
Cheers
Steve
I'm beginning to think that perhaps you may someday earn membership in the Audio Wit Club. Don is "Nit" . I am "Dim" . You have to choose your own first name... And it has to be well earned I the Arena of Duh. Choose wisely, Grasshopper :shock: :beer:
What a great bunch we have here! :lmc:
-
Will be designing an audio room using our two car garage. Should I begin with the "Golden Ratio for room dimensions ? Interior dimensions now are 17'x 18'-6". Roof high point occurs along 18'-6" dimension. Planning new marine ply floor over wood sleepers which rest on concrete slab.
charles
-
I wish I were as dumb and as much of an idiot as Steve.
Don
We can't all be as gifted as P.I. and me. :rofl:
Cheers
Steve
I'm beginning to think that perhaps you may someday earn membership in the Audio Wit Club. Don is "Nit" . I am "Dim" . You have to choose your own first name... And it has to be well earned I the Arena of Duh. Choose wisely, Grasshopper :shock: :beer:
What a great bunch we have here! :lmc:
:rofl: :rofl: I am rolling on the floor. Truthfully, I rarely come up with a good ones dBe. I offend much more than I succeed, so dimwit is probably more me than anything when it comes to wit.
Cheers
Steve
-
Will be designing an audio room using our two car garage. Should I begin with the "Golden Ratio for room dimensions ? Interior dimensions now are 17'x 18'-6". Roof high point occurs along 18'-6" dimension. Planning new marine ply floor over wood sleepers which rest on concrete slab.
17x18.5 is close to a square so there will be some huddled modes. With a flat 9 foot ceiling the modal coincidences get challenging, but nothing much below 60Hz to worry about. Wood garage construction will allow most of the bass energy to penetrate the walls to exterior dissipation. If your ceiling is peaked, or tilted so it's not a constant height all the better. If it's flat at any normal height other than 9 feet you're fine. As the room dimensions gets larger the modal problems get less. If you have exposed ceiling rafters, listen closely to how it sounds before deciding to fill them with insulation or sheetrock over it. Exposed joist ceiling actually sounds very nice, I guess it's kind of a big diffusor. Read Floyd Toole's book with an open mind before making any acoustic treatment decisions. Some reflections sound good, learn how to use them to benefit. Definitely paint the slab and any other concrete with drylok before covering it, to keep down moisture mold stink, then stuff the joist bays pretty densely between floor and slab. Alternatively, if the slab is flat enough, put your plywood down on the slab, with thin suspension cushion layer, as did Carlman. His basement room is excellent, solid floor without bounce or resonance is a benefit, take advantage of it if you can. If it is not flat maybe pour a thin slab on top to flatten it rather than lose 8+ inches of height.
-
I wish I were as dumb and as much of an idiot as Steve.
Don
We can't all be as gifted as P.I. and me. :rofl:
Cheers
Steve
I'm beginning to think that perhaps you may someday earn membership in the Audio Wit Club. Don is "Nit" . I am "Dim" . You have to choose your own first name... And it has to be well earned I the Arena of Duh. Choose wisely, Grasshopper :shock: :beer:
What a great bunch we have here! :lmc:
Dave,
I love the Stooges!! Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk 😂 I see it as intellectual, sophisticated humor....well, maybe not quite. My wife, however, is not of the same persuasion. She leaves the room quite promptly when I'm watching 🏃🏾♀️🏃🏾♀️🏃🏾♀️
Nick
-
The testing process is fun...to a certain extent. It can become mentally fatiguing over time. I couldn't be a reviewer in the long run. As I'm achieving such good results over the last year or two, I am starting to yearn for a more organic or should I say distorted sound. I want more of the richness of the human voice and the texture of a violin. Which component changes will be able to deliver that, I don't know. In fact, I've never had that truly organic sound in the past...and I go back to the 80s with my audio hobby... nervosa.
I don't have a problem at all going through the process again. But there's always that issue of selling, buying different components to achieve that. It is, though, quite satisfying to be where I'm at right now
Nick, I have not heard you say either way, was wondering if you have exhausted tweaking the speaker placement?
Cheers
Steve
Steve,
I haven't really messed with it. I have a very large cabinet in the living room and I have virtually no flexibility in placement until I sell the cabinet. I should post some pics showing my room layout...Iirc, my SP Techs also don't like being placed close the the back walls, so that's another limiting factor there. I think I can get an increase in performance down the road, but who knows. If I can figure out room acoustics at some point, maybe Brian might have some products that would be helpful.
I've chimed in a few times recently re subs. I'm thinking if I get smaller 2 ways than the SPs that gives me more flexibility with room placement, then I could add one powered sub. That would get me a smaller footprint and make my wife happy as well. She thinks the SP Tech speakers and stands are ugly and I'd agree with her to some extent (sorry Bob Smith! )
I've not reasearched small speakers, but have talked with Greg at GR over at AC. He had some suggestions, but can't recall the models right now. That might be an option. But I'd have to have the cabinets made. Of course, there's always the issue of what I can get for the SP Techs and what the new/used replacements would cost....darn
Nick
-
If you have a little more time you can listen subconsciously. You just listen to music for fun, and you will notice things about the sound that annoy you, write them down. If it doesn't appear again then it's just you getting used to a change and the annoyance fades away with familiarity. If it gets worse and you start noticing it all the time and it doesn't eventually fade out then it's something to work on or upgrade.
If you listen excitedly to an upgrade for a day or two, then find you're not listening at all, have no desire to listen, then could be your change killed it and you need to put it back the way it was and try again.
Point being, if you tell your subconscious to tune the system, it will, by informing you of needed changes through feelings and noticing subtle things that you might not have heard before. In the end, it's the subconscious that listens and does everything anyway, it is what you're trying to "please." Music hastens alpha brain waves which open the door between conscious mind and subconscious which is where the creation of our lives happens. Listening to music isn't just for fun, although the action of creation is the funnest thing you can do.
Pleasuring up the sound with yummy distortion like tubes, paper cones, vinyl, transformers, etc allows the music to work that much more powerfully to induce alpha and even theta brainwaves, with practice, thus making imagination and prayer done during listening 1000 times more powerful in creating your world. Pay attention to the feelings and hunches you have about your system. Going for extreme detail and low distortion reinforces beta brainwaves, which pull you away from alpha. To each his own, we all use the stereo for different purpose. Some to get into alpha, some to avoid it. The room acoustic if understood and used to your advantage can beautify the sound to hasten and deepen trance alpha state. Read Floyd Toole's book before you go plastering the walls with FG to kill the beautiful reverb in the name of lowering distortion.
OmniMic is a nice and easy measuring system, with USB mic, software by Liberty Instruments (Bill Waslo) and support on PE forum and diyaudio.com for $300.
One of my criteria is what I call "the other room"... How does the music sound from another room close to where you listen? I can guarantee if you can't pat your foot in the kitchen fixing dinner, then probably something is amiss.
As an empiricst (as well as measurement guy - measurements get us close) the if/then experience is paramount in my estimation. It was the "if/then" that got me in trouble in another lifetime, but that is water under the bridge.
I love it when I get to the "I dunno" point with a new whatever. That place is where the quality time appraisals come into play for me, because I know that I'm 98% "there" with whatever I am auditioning and / or changing. Another term is 'sweet misery'. :lol:
+1 on Liberty Instruments and Bill Waslo. One of the good guys.
-
The testing process is fun...to a certain extent. It can become mentally fatiguing over time. I couldn't be a reviewer in the long run. As I'm achieving such good results over the last year or two, I am starting to yearn for a more organic or should I say distorted sound. I want more of the richness of the human voice and the texture of a violin. Which component changes will be able to deliver that, I don't know. In fact, I've never had that truly organic sound in the past...and I go back to the 80s with my audio hobby... nervosa.
I don't have a problem at all going through the process again. But there's always that issue of selling, buying different components to achieve that. It is, though, quite satisfying to be where I'm at right now
Nick, I have not heard you say either way, was wondering if you have exhausted tweaking the speaker placement?
Cheers
Steve
Steve,
I haven't really messed with it. I have a very large cabinet in the living room and I have virtually no flexibility in placement until I sell the cabinet. I should post some pics showing my room layout...Iirc, my SP Techs also don't like being placed close the the back walls, so that's another limiting factor there. I think I can get an increase in performance down the road, but who knows. If I can figure out room acoustics at some point, maybe Brian might have some products that would be helpful.
I've chimed in a few times recently re subs. I'm thinking if I get smaller 2 ways than the SPs that gives me more flexibility with room placement, then I could add one powered sub. That would get me a smaller footprint and make my wife happy as well. She thinks the SP Tech speakers and stands are ugly and I'd agree with her to some extent (sorry Bob Smith! )
I've not reasearched small speakers, but have talked with Greg at GR over at AC. He had some suggestions, but can't recall the models right now. That might be an option. But I'd have to have the cabinets made. Of course, there's always the issue of what I can get for the SP Techs and what the new/used replacements would cost....darn
Nick
Thanks Nick. My speakers are 54.5" from the wall behind the speakers (back walls?). I have found (and Audiophile Dan from Mt. Pulaski also found in his system) that rotating the speakers one way by even 1/16" inch will flesh out the voices, fill out, etc. Rotating the speakers the other way will thin out the sound. Sound stage will also change. Each speaker is different.
Just a thought Nick as no cost involved.
Cheers
Steve
-
The testing process is fun...to a certain extent. It can become mentally fatiguing over time. I couldn't be a reviewer in the long run. As I'm achieving such good results over the last year or two, I am starting to yearn for a more organic or should I say distorted sound. I want more of the richness of the human voice and the texture of a violin. Which component changes will be able to deliver that, I don't know. In fact, I've never had that truly organic sound in the past...and I go back to the 80s with my audio hobby... nervosa.
I don't have a problem at all going through the process again. But there's always that issue of selling, buying different components to achieve that. It is, though, quite satisfying to be where I'm at right now
Nick, I have not heard you say either way, was wondering if you have exhausted tweaking the speaker placement?
Cheers
Steve
Steve,
I haven't really messed with it. I have a very large cabinet in the living room and I have virtually no flexibility in placement until I sell the cabinet. I should post some pics showing my room layout...Iirc, my SP Techs also don't like being placed close the the back walls, so that's another limiting factor there. I think I can get an increase in performance down the road, but who knows. If I can figure out room acoustics at some point, maybe Brian might have some products that would be helpful.
I've chimed in a few times recently re subs. I'm thinking if I get smaller 2 ways than the SPs that gives me more flexibility with room placement, then I could add one powered sub. That would get me a smaller footprint and make my wife happy as well. She thinks the SP Tech speakers and stands are ugly and I'd agree with her to some extent (sorry Bob Smith! )
I've not reasearched small speakers, but have talked with Greg at GR over at AC. He had some suggestions, but can't recall the models right now. That might be an option. But I'd have to have the cabinets made. Of course, there's always the issue of what I can get for the SP Techs and what the new/used replacements would cost....darn
Nick
Thanks Nick. My speakers are 54.5" from the wall behind the speakers (back walls?). I have found (and Audiophile Dan from Mt. Pulaski also found in his system) that rotating the speakers one way by even 1/16" inch will flesh out the voices, fill out, etc. Rotating the speakers the other way will thin out the sound. Sound stage will also change. Each speaker is different.
Just a thought Nick as no cost involved.
Cheers
Steve
Thanks, Steve, i love no cost ideas! Gary has made tiny changes like that for me in the past and we've noticed differences. One time I played with the SPs and rotated them ever so slightly toward a bank of windows. I got such a wonderful presentation as if I were in a cathedral. It was also interesting as the windows were just 2 feet from the one speaker and the other side wall was a good 6-7 feet from that speaker.
Nick
-
The testing process is fun...to a certain extent. It can become mentally fatiguing over time. I couldn't be a reviewer in the long run. As I'm achieving such good results over the last year or two, I am starting to yearn for a more organic or should I say distorted sound. I want more of the richness of the human voice and the texture of a violin. Which component changes will be able to deliver that, I don't know. In fact, I've never had that truly organic sound in the past...and I go back to the 80s with my audio hobby... nervosa.
I don't have a problem at all going through the process again. But there's always that issue of selling, buying different components to achieve that. It is, though, quite satisfying to be where I'm at right now
Nick, I have not heard you say either way, was wondering if you have exhausted tweaking the speaker placement?
Cheers
Steve
Steve,
I haven't really messed with it. I have a very large cabinet in the living room and I have virtually no flexibility in placement until I sell the cabinet. I should post some pics showing my room layout...Iirc, my SP Techs also don't like being placed close the the back walls, so that's another limiting factor there. I think I can get an increase in performance down the road, but who knows. If I can figure out room acoustics at some point, maybe Brian might have some products that would be helpful.
I've chimed in a few times recently re subs. I'm thinking if I get smaller 2 ways than the SPs that gives me more flexibility with room placement, then I could add one powered sub. That would get me a smaller footprint and make my wife happy as well. She thinks the SP Tech speakers and stands are ugly and I'd agree with her to some extent (sorry Bob Smith! )
I've not reasearched small speakers, but have talked with Greg at GR over at AC. He had some suggestions, but can't recall the models right now. That might be an option. But I'd have to have the cabinets made. Of course, there's always the issue of what I can get for the SP Techs and what the new/used replacements would cost....darn
Nick
Thanks Nick. My speakers are 54.5" from the wall behind the speakers (back walls?). I have found (and Audiophile Dan from Mt. Pulaski also found in his system) that rotating the speakers one way by even 1/16" inch will flesh out the voices, fill out, etc. Rotating the speakers the other way will thin out the sound. Sound stage will also change. Each speaker is different.
Just a thought Nick as no cost involved.
Cheers
Steve
Thanks, Steve, i love no cost ideas! Gary has made tiny changes like that for me in the past and we've noticed differences. One time I played with the SPs and rotated them ever so slightly toward a bank of windows. I got such a wonderful presentation as if I were in a cathedral. It was also interesting as the windows were just 2 feet from the one speaker and the other side wall was a good 6-7 feet from that speaker.
Nick
I agree. Pretty neat when we obtain a break through as you did. Sense of satisfaction.
One of the things I like is controls to adjust on the speaker. We probably both have noticed that compromise enters the picture since we are usually limited by the adjustments we can make. Drivers are fixed, Xovers are hidden, venues differ, electronic components used in designing the speaker vary, sensitivity, bandwidth etc. Adjustments such as controls/switches offer some variability. I wish more speakers have controls to adjust.
Cheers
Steve
-
Hi Nick, you might want to look into acquiring calibrated microphone and room measurement software like REW.
This combination will give you accurate information on frequency response and room modes which is not subject to misinterpretation in the way that conclusions drawn from listening to test CDs can be.
See links below.
Calibrated microphones from Cross Spectrum Labs.
http://www.cross-spectrum.com/
Calibrated Dayton UMM-6 USB microphone
http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umm6.html
FREE! REW room measurement software.
https://www.roomeqwizard.com/
Forum for REW, VERY HELPFUL
https://www.avnirvana.com/forums/official-rew-room-eq-wizard-support-forum.10/
Scotty
Thanks, Scotty,
I've never experimented using a mic and software. Good links and fun reading. I'm searching for a cheaper usb mic..found some good prices. Roon has a parametric equalizer and maybe thats a good place to start experimenting.
Nick
Nick, you can pick up the miniDSP UMIK-1 mic at PartsExpress.com for $85 instead of $96 on Amazon. I bought one about a month ago but so far haven't even had a chance to take it out of the box. But, it seems like it coupled with REW and an intense learning curve and you too can learn to measure your system and room. I'm hoping to get to it soon (soon being relative ... maybe sometime in the next couple months ;-)
Mike,
When you start working with it, let me know what you think. My wife's laptop seems like a useful device to use
Nick