AudioNervosa
Electro Stimulation Ward => Signals and Noise => Topic started by: lucci on September 21, 2012, 03:50:17 PM
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Hello, I have been looking for interconnects in (balanced) from pre pro to my amps, and a RCA digital from cdp to pre pro, for my 2ch 50% home theater 50% system with : Bryston 14BSST2 for Usher BE10's and 6BSST2 for center and surrounds. The pre pro is the Cary Cinema 12.
I was on the shelf on the main speakers between the Usher BE10's and the Legacy Audio Focus SE's. I masseged with Rich from here (if he remembers me) about the two lines which he gave me a wealth of info about them. THANK YOU Rich for that.
Anyway I ended up with the Ushers because my wife just didn't like the look of the Legacys, but she loved the Ushers looks. I have had the BE10's for about a month and a half now and love them. I also added the Running springs Dmitri to the system and after breakin, it took the sound to a new level.
So my question is as far as interconnects between the pre pro and amps, do I try different cables or just get the JPS superconductor 3's in balanced. knowing what my system is, what do you think would most likely work?
I feel my system sounds sweet enough but sometimes a little edgy with some recordings. I am looking for a little more mid range body (like vocals). My cerrent ic's are Argentum Mythos (sister company of XLO) in balanced. I am using HDMI for the audio to my pre and am told that it isn't as good as a coax digital. hope all this helps with your suggestions. I just don't have time to swap cables and try different ones. Thats why I am looking at JPS Labs. Please tell me if I am making a mistake and if so, any suggestions? A yes , I do understand that these are your opinions threw trying different cables.
And by the way, this forum rules!!!!! I truely feel you guys know audio. I would appreciate any info on ic's for my system.
Thank You, Steve
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Glad you're happy with your speakers. The usher midrange driver is very revealing, and sometimes can feel a bit bright. This might be due to cone resonance, or crossover capacitor quality or crossover design. I asked the importer about it and he suggested putting a wispy blob of fluff into the midrange reflex port. It does tone down the mid a little. Tune it to taste. Something I have done on occasion, when nobody was looking, is hang some absorptive material like cloth or fluff right in front of the offending driver for mechanical EQ. This can be diagnostic to help decide if the tweeter or mid is offending.
Upgrading the stock midrange low pass filter cap and tweeter high pass cap might improve the edginess. I wanted to do this, but I bailed before I could tried that. I would use Jantzen Superior Z with a little warmth, not supercaps.
Increasing the wire gage of the woofer low pass filter inductor would increase the midrange body. The stock inductor wire gage is too small, considering the high performance potential of that driver and how high and low it plays, IMO. It's kind of a big project though.
http://www.northcreekmusic.com/COILS.html (http://www.northcreekmusic.com/COILS.html)
JPS makes great wires. The SC3 is especially revealing, it might be too much of an open pipe if you are having issues with detail. A lesser JPS like Ultra Conductor would give a little less detail, but still silent background with no ringing, but you will lose a little bass clarity/power. Imo, it would be better to solve the issue at the source of the problem rather than cover it up, then use SC3 ICs to let all the music through. Using wires for EQ is not my thing, but not everyone is willing to mod a crossover.
The JPS digital cables are excellent.
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diamond tweeter or Be tweeter? the Be has a bit more edge and ring than the diamond. Could partly explain... but if it is in the midrange, then Rich's suggestions have merit...
the one compromise in the speaker is the crossover is built to a price point. You can only get so much cabinet, so much awesome driver technology, etc. for the price point. The crossover can be improved upon or altered to taste at the very least...
that is major surgery though and I wouldn't trust it to just anyone.
I'm beyond a JPS fanboy.... I won't even pretend to hide it... the SC3 is my favorite wire for the price of anything i've ever tried in any system I've ever owned.. the aluminata is awesome but few are going to spend that kind of cash.... some who've heard the SC3 claim there is a bit too much of an ethereal quality to the SC3... it will let the resolution through but it does eliminate the ringing that you didn't know was there until it is taken away.... if you can find a way to audition, do it... I've got a bunch of extra demo RCA SC3 here that I need to get posted for sale... but I have limited balanced as all my demo systems before now were single ended only... the few balanced XLR stuff I do have here is now in use and will have to be pried out of my cold, dead hands :) or when I switch back to mostly singled ended stuff ;) hehehe
I think there is a synergy between Usher and JPS that results in a sound that I just absolutely love... I'm obviously very biased... but I only own what I love since I am home based... no sense having something that I don't like sitting at my place taking up space and not being used....
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Hello Rich & Shane,
Thanks for the reply! I have bought the Ushers new so they are the diamond series. I think the occational edginess I get is some where between the mid to high. I am sold on the Dimitri because it helped that area be much sweeter or tamed. The weird part is when I looked in the midrange port in the back it is completely blocked from inside with the white fluffy stuffing. I then took out the mid and tweet to see if I could clear it out, but to my suprise the whole upper cabinet is stuffed with the white fluffy stuff. Is this right or are my BE10's different? I took out the other side and the same thing.
I do not have any problem taking out the crossovers And replacing with high end units. I do not want to build my own. I am thinking of the Exemplar Audio crossover replacements they have for the BE10's. G R Research only has them for the BE 20,s. I contacted Jon from Exemplar and he said the crossovers made a big difference. He said that after the install you can really turn up the volume and still have a smile on your face instead of plugging your ears. His own words were they let the music flow with an ease without the hash of the stock crossovers. The price is under 3 for the crossovers new wires and real wool stuffing to replace the original. I forgot what the components are that are in the crossovers but he said they are very high end. He builds them on two wood blocks, one for the tweet/mid and one for the woofer. Said they are much bigger and heavier than the stock. They are not on the site so you have to call and ask about them. And yes he did build them by ear to sound keeping roughly the same crossover points.
I guess it's advious that I'm going to probably get and install them. I think it would be fun but I don't have the time right know with a 22month old little girl. I already have the Superconductor + single sc that I love and want to move up the chain to the SC 3's ic's and in the future move up to the SC 3 speaker cables.
Rich, for the record I love the way the system is sounding so far I just want to bring out what I think the Ushers are capable of. I don't think my system is bright so I would hope the JPS Labs works for that extra in the room live sound. What do you guys think? Also is the top mid/tweet cabinet being completely stuffed from the factory normal or something new?
I must say after herring what you guys said about the crossovers makes me really want to install them. Jon sent me photo's of them, I will look at them and let you know what kind of caps and such they are. Thanks and please let me know about the stuffing thing and what you think about the Exemplar crossover idea.
Kind Regards, Steve
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If you're considering upgrading the crossover, it would probably be worth contacting Danny Ritchie directly (call or PM via Audio Circle) and get his thoughts.
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My opinion on wires is that if your equipment is up to it, get as much SC3 in the system as you can afford. It will reveal more music and more faults. Fix the faults at their source, not with wire. But that's not always as easy or cheap to do as masking faults with wire paint.
I heard the Be10 Exemplar crossovers at RMAF 2008, with bigfish. They had two sets of Be10s, one upgrade xo and one stock. The electronics were not identical, but I could still hear the difference. The stock made me feel like I was listening at home, very familiar sound. The upgrade was clearer, more open, more relaxed, less of a sonic signature. Exemplar designed the upgrade to be sold by the importer, then economy crashed and usher bailed. Glad it is still available. I don't know any technical details. They told me they could tweak it to work in a Be20. Usher told me the upgrade would be $6k option. :rofl:
AN member 'tdangelo' (Tony) had the GR xo in his Be20s. I never heard that xo, but I considered buying it. Danny sent me the graphs and detailed the changes, it was an impressive design. Crossovers were lowered frequency to cure some dispersion issues. I didn't like his Be718 so much so I hesitated, then it was time to sell mine.
AN member 'John-KCI' (John) also had Be20s, but I don't remember whether he upgraded the crossover or not. He is an Usher dealer so they are probably stock.
It is not difficult to replace the crossover. I can talk you through what to expect, tips, etc.
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I see your point about the wires. I think my system as a whole has a refined sound compared to what I used to have with the new Cary pre and RS Dmitri. Not the last word in finesse I know. The balanced interconnects I have now are like tone controls from what I read about them. Again I have nothing to compare them to. The system sometimes took on a glairy brightness at slightly higher volumes even with the Cary pre. But when I put the RS Dmitri in and after a few weeks of playing, glare was greately reduced. Somehow I feel the ic's(between pre and amp) I have are taking away to much of the clarity and detail/openness and ease of sound. The Dmitri , and Cary pre took most of the glare I had into a more clear seporated sound. They didnt tone down the harshness,glare, brightness, they cleaned most all of it up to more real sweet sound. Now I hope the JPS SC3's ic's in balanced will open up the sound more and take it to the next level. I know I am taking a risk but I feel it will be a good step up(I just don't have time for cable swapping). I think I am going to get powercords (only have the JPS digital on cdp and Fusion Audio on the Dmitri for now) and soon after then crossovers from Exemplar.
The ic' should be here in about a week to a week and a half if I order on Monday. Can't wait:) Rich, one thing that bothers me is the upper cabinet in the BE10's being completely stuffed with that insulation. I mean the whole thing, like a pillow. Do you remember this with your BE20's? Also when I took out the mid and tweeter to check this they all had a sticker on them with a sensitivity of 88 and a check mark on the -.02, which means they are actually less than 88db sensitive, seems kind of low to me. A local friend had 90db sens. on his be10's. What does this mean, I don't know but what do you guys think? Moving forward with the system.;)
Thank you for your replies... Steve
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I forgot to answer about the mid chamber stuffing. Mine was lined thickly with yellow colored foam stuffed randomly. There was some empty space in there. There was not stuffing blocking the port. But the speaker has evolved since then, which was an early vintage. If your ports are blocked then forget the stuffing trick. Talk to your dealer about the edge, or Usher US, they may have some specific advice about your version Be10.
The speakers are probably around 90dB. Sensitivity rating is just an average, decided by the mfg. for marketing. It should be used as a loose guideline for choosing amp. Few speakers measure truly flat, nor should they.
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I will third the SC-3. Be warned that they will expose what is not right. They are cumulative as well. The more used the more linear and coherent the sound is.
The speaker cables IMO will do more than the ICs in changing your sound. If you are able to go all SC-3 you will not regret it. Your wallet may but yours ears will not.
We found the SC-3 to be very open, no smearing of signal , great clarity and detail without being overbearing.
The Ushers are hot. So either darken up what comes before them or just mod the crossover. I would mod the crossover as Rich suggested. The cables will help but not completely. When the speaker is right the cable will shine through even more.
Have fun trying.
charles
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I think for your speakers and taste (what I can discern from your post), the SC-3's are an easy answer. Fast forward to the head of the class and don't worry about something better coming out. If you want to be 'done' get them. If you like climbing the upgrade ladder and/or experimenting with different things, then get something else.
I ended up with the Ultraconductor IC's and Superconductor SC's in my system. They suited my listening preferences within the synergy of my system. Plus, I like flexible cables. The SC-3's are very stiff and unwieldy. The SC3's could suspend some of my lighter equipment.
Buy from Shane, he'll give you the best deal and deliver whatever he says.
I have considered going to SC3's and compared them a few times... and they do everything right, and expose issues (like room nodes) I am not ready to fix yet... so, I am restricting my system to what it does well and enjoying a slight lack of transparency and bass extension. It's measurably more bass with the SC3's...
I can't see you regretting it if you have the $. :)
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The JPS SC-3's are amazing. If you buy them your cable journey has ended! Yes, they are expensive and they truly perform. The local guys have heard the SC-3's compared to many other cables in several systems and they were always the clear winners.
Good luck!
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Thank you guys for all the info and warnings. Five balanced SC3 ic's (pre pro to amps) and one RCA SC3 digital cable (cdp to pre) is going to be ordered tomorrow. I feel it's going to make the system sound better in more ways than not, I hope.
When I talked to John (Exemplar) about what his crossovers do better than the stock ones he said the BE10's will sound more open, have bloom, and the bass will be alot less boomy with more definition. He did say the speakers can be turned up alot more without that shouting sound. I must say I hope these do make the difference if I have a problem after the new cables. Or it could be something else in the system. After delivery of the cables the system pieces will be:
Cary Cinema 12
Directv sat box
Oppo bd83 (soon to be upgraded)
Bryston 14bsst2 (for BE10's)
Bryston 6bsst2 (for center and surrounds)
Running Springs Dmitri
Usher BE10's
Usher BE616 for center
The sub and surrounds are from B&W and are going to be changed to a JL Audio F113 x2 and the surrounds to James Audio in walls hopefully if my left arm sells for a good price.
XLO HD HDMI cables
JPS balanced from pre to amps
JPS AC Digital pc for Cdp
Fusion Audio Enchanter PC for power conditioner
All other power cords are stock
This is a ht and 2ch system which I know some do not approve of but I have no choice(wife). But the 2channel is getting better:)
After reading your thoughts on the possible problems I may have I hope my system is good enough to have such a cable. I really appreciate all your help and thoughts on this and if you have more please chime in. As far as power cables I am thinking of JPS AC+ or the Fusion Audio Enchanter wich I think is on the warmer side of things.
Steve
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Hi Steve, I used to have the BE20 and upgraded them with Danny's
(GR research) xovers. The improvement was amazing! I took my time and soldered all the wire(JPS aluminoy) to each individual driver - I spent about 8hrs or so for both speakers. Danny added extra resistors to tame the bass a bit - I think he cut it 4db. He built what he calls a resistor bundle so that if I wanted more bass I could just cut the lead on 1 of 6 resistors etc... If I remember right the cost was a little over a 6th of the Exemplar cost. Once you see whats inside the Usher you wonder why they sound as good as they do. I think I have some pics if you want.
Tony
Hi Rich :-)
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Hi Tony,
Thank you for the reply. It sounds like the XO upgrade is a must. It also sounds like you did the install right the first time:) I would like to do it first but right now I just don't have the time with work and being with my daughter until my wife gets home from work between 9:00 and 11:00pm.
The JPS cables were ordered today and are supposed to be here by the Friday after next or sooner. I did talk to Dan at GR Research and he only has the xo's for the BE20's and if I want them for the BE10's I would have to send him my speakers. I do not want to do that so that's why I am looking at the Exemplar ox's. Plus I would love to do the install myself, I have all the tools for it. I have been a self employed electrician for 22yrs and still going.
Tony, did you compare the to companies xo's or just go to the GR Research? If you have photos of the install or xo's or both I would love to see those. What did you replace the Ushers with?
Rich, thanks for the heads up on the upper cab insulation
Thing.
Steve
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Hi Steve, I went with the GR xovers due to cost. I think I got them for $1050 or so for both speakers. Bummer that Danny can't make them for the 10.. I had the SC3 for a while and then upgraded to the Aluminata. Right now all my cables are Kaplan GS MKII - I really like them. After the 20's I went with the Soundlab M1PX with 2 JL Audio 112 subs. The next speakers were Analysis Audio Amphytrion. Now I have the Rosso Fiorentino Siena with the AMR AM77.1 amps in vertical - the Siena will be around for a long time :).
The GR xover were a great improvment over stock but you have the like the Sonicap sound :). I'll find some pics and email to you tomorrow.
Tony
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Hi TonY!! Glad to hear about the new speaks. I think I heard those at Axpona ATL. Did you hear them there?
lucci, because the Be20 has two woofers and the Be10 only has one (of the same woofer,) the woofer impedance will be different. The woofer impedance is the most critical design parameter of the woofer low pass filter so that's why the GR Be20 crossover can't just drop into a Be10. Also, the distance between the woofer and midrange drivers is different. With crossover up at 600Hz that distance is something the crossover designer would want to consider.
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Sounds good Tony, the Rosso Fiorentino Siena's (Italian, must be great:) are incredible looking speakers. I am sure they sound as such. Talk about a system that has evolved! Did you have the JPS cables when you had the BE20's? How was the sound if you did?
Rich, I found that Exemplar uses Auri Caps(slightly warm with bloom, slightly forward midrange sound, not the last word for resolution but good) I believe he builds them to Ushers spec but with his parts.
I talked to Danny at GR today (man he know his stuff!!) and he said that he will build the XO's to ushers spec with his parts which is Soni Caps(smooth rich sound with more resolution and detail than the Auri Caps. Dan said that it will be much better than the stock XO's but not as good as if he had my speaker to test and tune. Man I am so tempted to just send him one of my speakers...but I have to draw the line somewhere. I do not know the inductors or coils they both use. Rich, knowing crossovers, which overall cap do you think would be a better fit? So many directions to go!
Steve Lucchini
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Rich, I found that Exemplar uses Auri Caps(slightly warm with bloom, slightly forward midrange sound, not the last word for resolution but good) I believe he builds them to Ushers spec but with his parts.
Possibly, but that would be pretty sad. It sounded like bigger changes that just parts quality, but it was still similar sound, not a whole new speaker. Call them to discuss the changes. I think the GR Be20 upgrade is a large change and probably sounds like a different speaker.
I talked to Danny at GR today (man he know his stuff!!) and he said that he will build the XO's to ushers spec with his parts which is Soni Caps(smooth rich sound with more resolution and detail than the Auri Caps. Dan said that it will be much better than the stock XO's but not as good as if he had my speaker to test and tune. Man I am so tempted to just send him one of my speakers...but I have to draw the line somewhere. I do not know the inductors or coils they both use. Rich, knowing crossovers, which overall cap do you think would be a better fit? So many directions to go!
Steve Lucchini
I haven't used either of those caps, Auricap or Sonicap. I use Jantzen Superior Z caps and like them very much.
I use Erse 14ga coils and they are good. GR is Erse dealer. I would use an even larger gage coil on the woofer, you can talk to Danny about this.
Danny would use his existing upgrade design for Be20 on the upper drivers, but would need to measure and test the new design for the Be10 woofer. The crossover frequencies are changed, and the dispersion is vastly improved. If he can do the upgrade for 1000 plus shipping costs < $1000 then it might be worth it when compared to Exemplar price. He can probably help you get a good shipping price.
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Hi TonY!! Glad to hear about the new speaks. I think I heard those at Axpona ATL. Did you hear them there?
Hi Rich, yes I heard them in Atlanta and Jacksonville. I really liked them in Jax but thought Atlanta sounded better - much bigger room in Atlanta. They were being powered with the AMR amps so I bought 2 of those and run them in vertical biwire configuration. The amps can be used as integrated with remote volume so it's kinda like the ASR I had.
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Sounds good Tony, the Rosso Fiorentino Siena's (Italian, must be great:) are incredible looking speakers. I am sure they sound as such. Talk about a system that has evolved! Did you have the JPS cables when you had the BE20's? How was the sound if you did?
I did use the JPS cables with the 20's and thought it sounded great. I had 3-4 other brands before the JPS(Harmonic Tech Pro9 Ref SE, Pure Note Designer, MIT .. forget the others). The JPS sounded best to me. I had the Aluminata RCA IC at the time. The sound was what you would expect at that price level - very neutral and balanced with lots of detail and a very quiet background. I think you would like them :)
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Thanks guys for chiming in with all your thoughts. It helps me look at the good and the bad of the upgrades. Even though its heavy on the wallet, this hobby is a lot of fun.😄 I will give you my results after I take delivery of the JPS ic's. In the meantime I need to figure out the Xover route I will take, if I do go that route that is. I wonder what power cords I should go with......
Steve