Speaker wires - JPS?

[Carlman]

John, fact is... no one knows the answer as to 'why cables sound different'

The JPS labs cable Rich has sounds way better than the Reality Cables on HIS system.  I was satisfied with the RC's in my system.. I can't remember if we compared the 2 at my house..

The JPS Rich is using sounds better than any other speaker cable I've heard on HIS system.  I think this is the point... You can't say 'any speaker cable' is going to be 'good enough' for anyone based on anything.. including technical specs.  There is no technical spec available to measure why 2 speaker cables sound different.

Of the ones you've recommend, I could get the same gauges and compare them... they'll all sound different to some degree.  And they'll adequately carry the signal. 

Rich sounds like he's contemplating a new way to measure speaker cables to figure out why they sound different.  That's sounds like a good move because right now, the fact is, most speaker cables change the sound in some way from one to the next.  I don't know of anyone that can explain all of the reasons.  There is no formula... Just like why an amp sounds good with some speakers and not others... the specs say it should work.. but there's just magic with some combos that doesn't exist with others... Even though they 'technically match'.

My stream is longer... Your turn.

[Bill O'Connell]

I know this is a speaker wire thread but once I tried the JPS Superconductor 3 interconnect from Shane I knew I had found what I was looking for in IC's.What it did for my system was take it to a level it had never been before. If I could afford their speaker cable I would without giving it a second thought.
  Can't explain it but I can hear it, whatever it is.

[mgalusha]

This isn't about JPS, more about long runs as I think that is part of what started this thread.

With longer runs the capacitance becomes very important. Some amplifiers have a hard time driving capacitive loads and can become unstable and oscillate, I've seen a pair of JC-1's shut down from high capacitance speaker cables. In my old home I had the system in the living room which was 15 x 24 x 16 and was a very nice room. However the entry to our dining room was on the same end as where the speakers went and I couldn't have speaker wire crossing the floor to get there. Additionally the system was along one of the side walls so I had to run the cable down the wall and under the floor to get there.

The result of this was the right channel had about 40ft of wire and the left channel about 25ft. With runs like this expensive cable was out of the picture. I tried several types of cable that were semi affordable and ended up using a flat 12ga braid (Horizon Music) as it offered the lowest capacitance (at the cost of more inductance) and sounded quite good. I also purchased a 100M spool of Canare 4S11 and ran two runs to each speaker. This turned out to be a very bad choice for my system.

What really drove home the effect long runs (and lots of capacitance) can have was participating in the AKSA 100+ tour several years ago. This amp was almost universally praised but sounded mediocre in my main system. After some discussion with Hugh Dean I agreed to rearrange things so I could try it with some 8ft cables. I used the same cable, just a much shorter run and the amp was transformed. All the gear and cables were the same, only the length of the speaker cables had changed yet the sound went from just OK to excellent. I also tried some Tara Labs cables that came with the amp and they also worked very well. The experience also made me wonder about a few other amps I had tried and disliked despite positive reviews I'd read.

Anyway, the point is that if long runs are required be aware of the problems that it can cause, particularly for amps that are running close to the edge. I think some designers run their amps on the edge of the stability margin because the sound best this way but they may not react well to long cable runs. Probably the same amps that don't do well with 'stats.

Just my $0.02 worth.

[bpape]

I will agree though that there is a lot more to it than saying 12ga in a 4-8 ohm load anything should be fine.  I find a diff between a HT Pro 11 and a Pro 9 over only 8'

Bryan

Hey Bryan,

What more to it is there? I'm not trying to start a pissing match.....more trying to learn.

If there is something more to do it, please explain. I have a decent amount of knowledge on speaker impedance and wire resistance, skin effect, capacitance and inductance and based on what I know, there is no more to it. The lower the impedance of the speaker, the resistance will be higher but once the AWG of the wire is factored in and the actual conductor is taken into consideration, what else is there?

I don't know the  HT Pro 11 and Pro 9 but I'm assuming that they are the exact same wire with different awg correct? If so there should be no difference over 8 feet. Technically its impossible for there to be any audible difference. Now if there are differences in the conductors etc, that is different but if it's simply the awg that is different.....I'm lost.

You're right - there should be no difference - but it's there.  Same wire, smaller guage, same connectors, etc.  Definite difference. 

Skin effect at audio frequencies IMO is hogwash.  Cable geometry also plays a role as does dielectric/insulation.  Try for yourself.  Take the same type of cable and use 4 conductors.  Try twisting 2 twisted pairs vs twisting all 4.  Also try the diff between 1 twist per foot vs 1 per 6" vs 1 per 2-3".  All will sound slightly different.  Try measuring those differences though.

There are differences between coarse and fine stranding in the same guage and material which are very easy to hear.  Those differences become more apparent as more length is introduced. 

I have no idea why. I'm not an enginerd  but I trust me ears.  I was never a cable believer.  But then I actually participated in a blind listening test and it was actually pretty surprising to me.  Even so, I never could justify the cost of cabling vs the improvements made.  Then I took the Pro 9's in on trade and put them in my system.  The difference was not at all subtle.  I wanted to try them on my other system but didn't want to spend the money on the 9's for the smaller system so I bought a used pair of 11's that were also 8'.  They still sound REALLY good - but they're not the same as the 9's.

300WPC into a 4 ohm load with 11 ga wire should be no problem whatsoever according to the forumulas.  9ga sounds better though.

I'll agree with Mike that it's a function of the whole system.  It's how the speaker/amp interface works with the wire - not just how the wire measures by itself.

Bryan

[mdconnelly]

So, in my system, the long speaker wire is the result of running them under the floor since my speakers stradle an archway between living and dining room (much like mgalusha described).

While I might successfully shorten the run from 23' down to 18' by moving the components a bit,  getting it shorter can only be accomplished by not running under the floor.   I had toyed with the idea of using a flat cable such as Nordost Blue Heaven or Alpha Core Goertz under a rug but I have to think that's just not a good idea.   Anyone tried that?