Author Topic: Speaker wires - JPS?  (Read 9781 times)

Offline mdconnelly

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Speaker wires - JPS?
« on: May 29, 2008, 06:50:22 PM »
Instantly my heart lit up, picturing a shiny new Kuzma Stabi S

Rich,  not sure if I mentioned... that is my turntable - I love it!   Not only gorgeous to look at, it sounds great!

I've also got the problem of having speakers that stradle an opening so I've got a looong speaker cable (23') run under the floor.  I know I'm paying a price with that long run, but I really haven't come up with an alternative that doesn't entail having to step over cables to enter the room.   With a bit of maneuvering of components and a few more holes in the floor, I could probably get it down to 17' but still longer than ideal.

Black Sand Cable

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Re: Speaker wires - JPS?
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2008, 09:53:31 PM »
Instantly my heart lit up, picturing a shiny new Kuzma Stabi S


I've also got the problem of having speakers that stradle an opening so I've got a looong speaker cable (23') run under the floor.  I know I'm paying a price with that long run

Why? 23 feet is nothing as long as you are running at least 12awg. If you are, even at say 1000 feet your resistance would be around 1.588 which is squat. Granted the ohm rating of your speakers comes into play but like I said, if your using a decent size awg into a 4,6 or an 8ohm load.....you are not paying any price. 

Offline richidoo

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Re: Speaker wires - JPS?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2008, 04:49:05 AM »
if your using a decent size awg into a 4,6 or an 8ohm load.....you are not paying any price. 

Unless you're using JPS speaker wire like Mike is.... then there's a price alright! haha

Mike you have excellent taste in turntables - as in everything else!

Offline mdconnelly

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Re: Speaker wires - JPS?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2008, 07:29:37 AM »
Speaker wire is JPS SC+ biwire and it's now probably one of the oldest parts of my system.   But any speaker wire that can compete with the SC+ biwire would cost a bundle at this length.

Black Sand Cable

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Re: Speaker wires - JPS?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2008, 09:01:51 AM »
But any speaker wire that can compete with the SC+ biwire would cost a bundle at this length.

I would tend to disagree. There are several lines out there that give JPS a run for a heck of a lot less money. NeoTech, BPT and a host of others are at the very least as good. Reality Cables will also get you 95% of the way there.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against JPS, (maybe the M.S.R.P.) but they are not the end all when it comes to carrying a signal.

Offline mdconnelly

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Re: Speaker wires - JPS?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2008, 11:01:19 AM »
I selected the JPS a dozen years ago based on a lengthy comparison of cables from the Cable Company including DH Labs, Wireworld, Transparent & Nordost.   The Cable Company was a great help and very easy to work with.  But I don't doubt that there are a number of cables on the market today that can hold their own and likely at a better price point.

Ken - sorry to have hijacked the thread a bit (oh, wait, that was Rich and his Kuzma link  :duh

Offline hometheaterdoc

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Re: Speaker wires - JPS?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2008, 11:13:18 AM »
I would tend to disagree.

And you have every right to do so.  Just like I have every right to disagree as well.  The hobby is very subjective and everyone has different goals and hears differently....

Quote
Reality Cables will also get you 95% of the way there.

Umm... no... it won't...unless 95% of the way there means they both allow signal to pass through them.  On a system that is resolving enough to show the differences, these two aren't even close.... but then again, given the price difference, one would expect that... now if we're comparing the entry level Ultraconductor stuff against Reality Cables, then the comparison is a lot closer... but the price is also nearly identical at that point....  JPS doesn't really start to distance itself from the others until you get into their middle to upper models...  which as Mike said, cost a bundle...

I personally *hate* spending money on cables.  It drives me up the wall to know that I have to spend cash to improve the connections between the main components.  I've heard hundreds of models of cables over the years... It took a demo in my own system with my own ears to make me part with a stupid amount of cash after I personally swore I'd never spend this much (nor anywhere close to this much) on cables ever.  But hands down, over everything else I've ever bought in this hobby, my purchase of the JPS Aluminata and SC3 cables has been the most rewarding, most enjoyable money I've ever spent.  Period.  And that includes purchases of music itself.  I never would have enjoyed some of my music collection as much without these cables.  

Will they be perfect for everyone?  Nope.  Everyone has their own idea of perfect and may not like what they do to their system and what they reveal about the other components connected together.  

Would I like the MSRP to be lower so I could afford them easier (and potentially sell more of them to people)?  Yup, sure would.  But I will continue to respectfully disagree with your opinion about their value and how well JPS competes with other products.  They are very expensive for the upper models.... but they're worth every single penny and then some to me... especially compared to the alternatives.  And that includes the SC+ model that as mike states is getting up there in years.  Some of the newer designs are better, albeit even more expensive than the SC+.

My apologies, too Ken for hijacking... back to our regularly scheduled discussion of transporters... I'm curious to hear your modded unit.  I had a stock unit here for a while and found it very interesting what it was capable of.  There are still a couple local guys with stock units here in town that we could compare the two units in a head to head if we have a future get together.  I'd be curious to hear what the modded unit does to the sound compared to stock.

If Richard S is up to it, it might also be cool to compare against his unit.....

Shane

back to finishing laying down the walnut floors.... almost done at the house... it's starting to finally come together... woooohoooo!!!
Shane Sangster
Used to be Night & Day Audio.......

Offline richidoo

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Re: Speaker wires - JPS?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2008, 12:18:46 PM »
I like JPS too, but would be interested in finding similar performance for significantly lower cost. JPS has no ringing, and resolution beyond my system's abilities. I think the price (with a good discount) is worth it for the results.

Black Sand Cable

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Re: Speaker wires - JPS?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2008, 02:13:30 PM »
Quote

And you have every right to do so.  Just like I have every right to disagree as well.  The hobby is very subjective and everyone has different goals and hears differently....

Agreed. There is no right or wrong.


Quote
Umm... no... it won't...unless 95% of the way there means they both allow signal to pass through them.  On a system that is resolving enough to show the differences, these two aren't even close....  together...

No it won't? That is your opinion.....and the selling price of JPS compared to Reality is irrelevant. There are more then a few out there who would disagree with you on JPS and I'm one of them but at the end of the day, I'm not going to spend anytime debating JPS as it will go nowhere fast for all involved. At the end of the day there is no right or wrong. It comes down to whatever works for that particular person.


Black Sand Cable

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Re: Speaker wires - JPS?
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2008, 02:24:55 PM »
I like JPS too, but would be interested in finding similar performance for significantly lower cost. JPS has no ringing, and resolution beyond my system's abilities. I think the price (with a good discount) is worth it for the results.

NeoTech, Audience, BPT, Signal Cable (Silver Resolution), DH Labs (Q-10) to name but a few of the better known stuff.....and I can think of about 10 more off the top of head.

I should also point out that I don't carry or sell any of the lines listed above so I have nothing to gain by listing those companies. I do have Audioquest, Audio Art Cable and PS Audio but as I have yet to fool around with their respective speaker cables, I left them out.


Offline richidoo

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Re: Speaker wires - JPS?
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2008, 02:52:46 PM »
Thanks John. I tried RichardS' Signal Cable, not sure which model it was though. But knowing Richard it was their best at the time. I have heard the DHLabs at a dealer, they are excellent.

Offline bpape

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Re: Speaker wires - JPS?
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2008, 07:36:02 PM »
Try the NeoTech.  If you want a prefab, try the Harmonic Tech.  I've listened to a lot of cables and once this went in my system, it never came out.

I will agree though that there is a lot more to it than saying 12ga in a 4-8 ohm load anything should be fine.  I find a diff between a HT Pro 11 and a Pro 9 over only 8'

Bryan
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Bigfish8

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Re: Speaker wires - JPS?
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2008, 08:01:43 PM »

My apologies, too Ken for hijacking... back to our regularly scheduled discussion of transporters... I'm curious to hear your modded unit.  I had a stock unit here for a while and found it very interesting what it was capable of.  There are still a couple local guys with stock units here in town that we could compare the two units in a head to head if we have a future get together.  I'd be curious to hear what the modded unit does to the sound compared to stock.

If Richard S is up to it, it might also be cool to compare against his unit.....

Shane

back to finishing laying down the walnut floors.... almost done at the house... it's starting to finally come together... woooohoooo!!!

Shane:

There does not seem to be any published threads comparing a stock Transporter to a ModWright Modified Unit.  I would certianly be interested and know there would be significant interest in a report on the comarison.

Glad to hear your repairs are moving along!

Ken

Black Sand Cable

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Re: Speaker wires - JPS?
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2008, 09:49:26 AM »

I will agree though that there is a lot more to it than saying 12ga in a 4-8 ohm load anything should be fine.  I find a diff between a HT Pro 11 and a Pro 9 over only 8'

Bryan

Hey Bryan,

What more to it is there? I'm not trying to start a pissing match.....more trying to learn.

If there is something more to do it, please explain. I have a decent amount of knowledge on speaker impedance and wire resistance, skin effect, capacitance and inductance and based on what I know, there is no more to it. The lower the impedance of the speaker, the resistance will be higher but once the AWG of the wire is factored in and the actual conductor is taken into consideration, what else is there?

I don't know the  HT Pro 11 and Pro 9 but I'm assuming that they are the exact same wire with different awg correct? If so there should be no difference over 8 feet. Technically its impossible for there to be any audible difference. Now if there are differences in the conductors etc, that is different but if it's simply the awg that is different.....I'm lost.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying that I'm not a believer when it comes to speaker cables as I do find differences between some brands but at the same time.....I believe in actual measured results. I build my power cords based on this principle so it only stands to reason that I'm going to expect the same from other manufactures.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Speaker wires - JPS?
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2008, 01:55:46 PM »
JPS conductors use alumilloy, an alloy of copper, aluminum and other metals, undisclosed. It is my understanding (not claimed by JPS) that the alloy stops the ringing (audible resonance,) making the wire quieter.

I would like to measure THD of JPS SC vs romex or extension cord (aka: old rope, white lightning, etc.) which are frequently assumed that they must just be as good as JPS or another high end wire because the capcitance, resistance are the same. But they sound different, and cost different and the customer base grows based on word of mouth and happy customers. How can that be?

I think THD specs would be interesting to see for all wires. LM4562 opamp measures a statistically significant 0.00002%THD, and Halcro charges 40kilbucks for the lowest distortion amp in the world, blablabla. If distortion is so important, why not meausre the contribution of wires and speakers too? Speakers are over 1% distortion making that Halcro look like a big ripoff, but wirephobes say that all wire is perfect, so lets see.  I bet that an 8ft 5ga wire with 30Vpp, 10kHz square wave into 100W 8ohm resistor could be expected to be significantly higher than that halcro's 0.0001%. Why not measure and compare wires? I know someone with the HP analyzer and the curiosity to do just that. This should be fun! Help me design an experiment that would show that all wire doesn't have the same THD.

I am interested in your opinion on the valididty of this test, and ways to make it more meaningful, or how to conduct it. Thanks!
Rich