AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Bipolar System Disorders => Topic started by: BobM on April 26, 2010, 12:09:09 PM
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I know when we all sit in that listening chair to answer the question posed by our SO's "how much did this all cost?" there are probably 3 different ways to value it all:
- sum up the MSRP (and watch that SO hit the floor, or ceiling)
- sum up the approximate current used selling prices (still probably a floor or ceiling hit)
- sum up what we actually spent (ditto)
I know personally my MSRP sum is far higher than my used or out of pocket costs. This makes me happy because I believe I got a deal buying a lot of stuff used and/or modding it myself.
But there's also the 4th category:
- sum up EVERYTHING we spent, then subtract what we got when we sold something at a profit or loss (and don't forget all that tweaky stuff stuffed into that box in the corner that you don't use anymore)
Does this last category make you want to cry?
How about that 5th category, for those who buy and hold things for a lot of years:
- sum up what you would probably have to spend to replace your equipment with something that sounds just as good at today's MSRP
Now THAT should make you smile again. Things are so freakin' expensive these days. It's like you're not a man anymore unless you have $5000 to throw at some individual piece of equipment, let alone those $40,000 speakers.
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OR...a 6th category:
Have a storage building full of speakers, amps, etc....that you are too damn sorry to list for sale. Especially, when you know that you are not going to get anywhere near what you paid for them :duh.
Now you just have to sit back and 'forget' that you have all of this great stuff, just sitting around...taking up needed space...oh well :roll:!!
My advantage...no SO :) ...so no questions posed 8).
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Steve - easy answer there! Hold a G2G at your place and combine it with a yard sale!
I view this hobby from the standpoint of an annual investment of time and money (as are all hobbies). My sweet wife is very understanding from this point of view as long as the annual investment is held to a certain acceptable (and accountable) point. I'm fortunate in that I rarely purchase anything now without selling something so the incremental investment each year just keeps taking me close to my own nirvana (also spelled 'nervosa' by some ;-). I'm equally fortunate in that my wife loves music as much as I do.
I try not to think about my system value - either MSRP or worth - much less how much I've invested over the years. While I'm good with it, that would easily lead to a discussion of priorities and missed opportunities that doesn't do anyone any good.
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:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
This hobby can be very expensive but everything is relative. I don't think this hobby is nearly as expensive as Salt Water Fishing. Lets see: Boat, trailer, motor, truck to tow boat, mega fishing gear, licenses, taxes, insurance, ramp fees, ice, beer and bait. Trust me, nothing goes down faster in value than a used boat!
One of the big problems with any hobby, this one is no different, and it is with what I call curb appeal. When you participate in audio web sites and you attend G2G's you read or learn about people's perceptions of gear. Those perceptions may be based on facts or totally based on opinions but they definitely have a strong influence on the price of used gear. Another factor, which we are going through right now, is the explosion of the digital age. Digital gear being produced today is simply better and sounds better than the gear made just a short time ago. Thus, the prices of used digital gear drops like that of a used boat.
This is supposed to be a hobby about the music. I think it is more about having a system that plays back music in a manner that you want to hear it. When you are with friends at a G2G you learn that no two people prefer the same type of music or same type of sound. Thank goodness we have lots of gear to satisfy each of our specific needs.
Ken
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I agree about fishing and owning a boat. Truly a watery hole that you just throw money into. I just laugh when I hear someone say they're going fishing because they can bring home free fish. Yeah "FREE" fish my ass.
Although there is nothing quite like watching the sun go down on a boat at the end of the day with some BBQ shrimp on the portable grill and a nice cold glass of white wine or beer. That is until you have to bring the boat back to the dock, wash it down (and maybe put it back on the trailer), pack up all the crap and haul it home, then clean the fish you caught and scrape the scales and salt off your own body and apply copious amounts of aloe before dropping into bed exhausted.
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If money was NOT an issue I'd have a house on a big lake with a fishing boat, a sail boat, *AND* a great audio system!
Hey, it could happen! (reminder to self: go buy lottery tickets asap ;-)
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Trust me, nothing goes down faster in value than a used boat!
Except maybe the beers you dirnk on the used boat..... :beer:
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I have long wanted to get into sailing.. but there's only so much I can do. I have spent an embarassing amount of money on audio gear and the room(s). However, I have grown as a person throughout my hobby (and at times obsession). I paid a lot of money for school and learned less than I did with audio. So, to me it wasn't a bad investment, just a really big one. ;) And, like school, I picked up friends along the way. :thumb:
So, what did my system cost? Some hard work and maybe some fun in another hobby.. or a big saving account.. all things I don't know how they'd help me more than audio has. Audio has been a means for personal growth, connecting emotional and technical desires. It's one of the few places you can (safely) practice balancing reality and idealism.
-C
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Well said Carlman . I agree wholeheartedly :thumb:
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Priceless ! To answer the question. Bought some pieces new others previously owned. Still have most gear on hand. Why ? cause I can't seem to let them go. Do I use them? Sometimes but mostly not. Probably have over $5000 sitting around idle looking all purdy and stuff.
The price of entry wasn't much in the beginning. About $2500 for the Linn LP12, klyne SK5A preamp and Classe DR25 amp. already owned Dahlquest speakers. Today a different story , could have a new Porsche instead but the audio system for me is PRICELESS ! The friends along the journey priceless as well.
charles
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I have enjoyed all my systems. I can't remember when I bought new. Actually, the Integrated i34 was new last year.
All my used pieces have been pretty close to mint condition.
It is pretty much a given you always lose on resale, that is expected and you also pick up bargains along the way too. You just have to be ready to jump on them.
But, I figure in the depreciation of how long I used the piece. Here the resale price does always go towards the newer one.
I'm one not to change equipment too often. I think most of our wives are forgiving of the
addiction to this hobby. My wife is into sewing so she has some pretty expensive machines too.
I hate to admit it but I have not been in a B&M shop in ages.
Many times after a shit day at work my system has provided the R&R I needed.
That is what matters to me.
Let me add meeting a lot of nice people too. Some face to face, some on the boards I never met.
We all have the same thing in common. We're all nuts!
D
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So, what did my system cost? Some hard work and maybe some fun in another hobby.. or a big saving account...
But then again if you didn't have the mancave to chill in you might also be dealing with the bills for psychoanalysis and detox when the pressures and craziness of the world push you right over the end. :shock:
You can't put a price tag on your own sanity. :roll:
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True.. we're all crazy and you gotta get it out somehow. ;)
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True.. we're all crazy and you gotta get it out somehow. ;)
Remember, normal people are just people you don't know that well yet. :lol:
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Audiogon, ebay, mfr/dealer demo, DIY, and low component turn-over, is how I can afford this hobby...
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Audiogon, ebay, mfr/dealer demo, DIY, and low component turn-over, is how I can afford this hobby...
In high end audio like any other technology it costs big bucks to be right on the leading edge. Those who are willing to take a small step away from the best can do so a a huge cost savings. And in thew high end, with the exception of DACs & CDPs which seem to change at a very fast pace, a tow or three year old component will perform at a level very close to the latest models at a fraction of the cost. Over the last couple of years I have replaced about 2/3s of my components at prices that ran about 25 cents on the dollar compared to MSRP and my system has never sounded better. Could I improve it by purchasing the latest new models? I have no know doubt. But I do have serious doubts that the amount of sonic improvement would justify the additional cash outlay. I know there are people out there who have to have the biggest baddest toys on the block and also have the cash to support that desire. And while I am not one of those people I am sure glad they are around, because if they weren't buying new and upgrading so often the secondary market that is supporting my system would not exist.
My goal is to simply do the best I can withing my limited budget and then enjoy the hell out of whatever I am able to put together. :thumb:
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My 2 pennies on tmazz's last comment...
Buying a system that's new, just released to the market (and therefore expensive) means being on the cutting edge, this is true. (maybe not the 'best' though) And, that only applies to big name brands in my experience. The people buying new systems made by oddball companies that make 1 product you've never heard of (Hørning Euphrodite's anyone?... ) ... those are for true hobbyists that have sacrificed a lot to get that setup... but they are VERY rare and aren't the people pushing the way for lots of gear showing up.
There are in-betweens where it's not McIntosh but it's not an Aksa kit amp either... and along that scale seems to be pretty proportionate with sales price and deviation from MSRP. So, you get a big discount right off the bat with less known brands vs. well known.
The people I've seen on the leading edge buying the newest, latest, greatest... are people with high incomes building systems designed to impress others first, selves 2nd. They tend to buy well known brands so they can be easily identified in magazines and such. (So when reading Skymall they'll say "ooo, I saw that at Carl's house! He's so money!") ;)
Buying McIntosh gear is much like buying a BMW.. Some people think you have good taste, some think you're a snob, etc.. but they all know the brand and associate you with the type that can afford such things. To me, that's embarrassing but to others, it's the point.
Either way, you spend what the market has determined it should cost. I don't think there are a great number of people buying at the leading edge these days... and the market reflects that. You get new gear at a good price (overall more value) from smaller companies. One of the big deals of this hobby for the past 10 years is finding those values.
So, I don't think it's a simple cycle of buying best then trickling down.
-C
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I owned a MacIntosh amp years ago, it was the best built and classest looking thing I've ever owned. But it sounded like crap and frankly was ridiculously overbuilt for home audio use.
At the other audiophile extreme I tried a battery powered Tripath integrated that fit in my hand. Very unassuming, but underpowered for my speakers and the battery could only be changed by the factory. That damn battery slammed into the rest of the inards and broke them up during shipment back to the factory, costing me $100 plus shipping and the cost of the battery. :x
Wifey knows I spend too much, even with sales from the old stuff, but it's still cheaper than many other hobbies and it keeps me home. Part of the hobby is in climbing the learning curve, so much of what has been spent is caulked up to that. Part too is the advancements in technology. Hopefully you sell off before it becomes yesterday's news.
When purchasing I try to decide if the enjoyment derived equals the depreciation.
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JLM, you make a good point I missed.. and that is there is no 'best'.. what it sounds like has no bearing in the market because it's so subjective. (Bose, anyone?) I had a Mac pre amp that was seriously limited in dynamics and transparency... The circuit design was crowded with compromise in order to achieve features per price point. It was designed for the Dr. still paying off his loans. ;)
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Audio can be an investment like any other investment, or it can be a money pit (or more likely both ;-)
My audio investments have paid off extremely well in all measures except for perhaps one: money ;-) I've learned a lot, I've spent countless hours listening to wonderful music, I've made many new and very interesting friends along the way, and I have a system today that sounds far better than what I had just a few years ago.
I've also learned to seek used or demo equipment or great sales and factor in resale value on whatever I purchase because my track record says I'll probably sell it at some point. But I've also learned to seek cornerstone components that will be very difficult to improve on, even as technology marches on.
What is equally amazing, however, is that there is no right answer. If you spend any time on AN, AC, AA or any other audio site, you quickly realize that no two people have exactly the same system yet each of us has spent a lot of time and effort selecting exactly what we do have. Maybe it's just our desire to be unique but it certainly drives this hobby.
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I wonder if it is about our desire to be unique, or special... I thought it was more about pleasing one's self. I think for me it's about making myself happy first then enjoying others point out that I'm 'special' once I've figured out what makes me happy.
OK, there's enough in there for folks to have a few pokes. ;)
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Carl, you are special! :rofl:
Maybe it's more like when we were kids and had erector sets -- the joy was in building something and making it work (often in strange and mysterious ways ;-) But the fun was always in the building.
I've often wondered that if I ever took on the project of building my dream home if I would be looking to change things a month after completion.
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The nice thing is having a group of people willing to get together, bring equipment and let people have the opportunity to listen. New or used... the opportunity will save you tons of money in the end helping you avoid needless transitions (hopefully) from one unit to the next.
As far as chasing new... sometimes it's dependant on transformative leaps in technology... VCR vs DVD players... DVD vs HD-DVD (er) Blu-Ray (I was on the losing end of that transition). Sometimes buying new brings you quite a bit of value... for what I needed (analog out) the Oppo Blu-Ray was perfect for my needs. Is there better? Could I have waited and secured a 2nd hand one after people jumped to the SE versions? Yes... but at the time, it filled a need.
In fact... I would even argue my tendancy to over analyze, wait and wait on a deal has a value (time = money). I could have been doing something else... like enjoying a new toy. It all depends. Seems like there's no right or wrong answer. I will admit though - I do get very psyched when I score that "deal". It's been a while though.
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Is it a general universal principal that men tend to like complex electronics? We fiddle with separate components, play with cables, pester our wives that we must have a home theater system to watch a movie, then hang onto the remote desperately changing the sound settings until we are satisfied that we CAN hear that spaceship coming from the left rear speaker.
Maybe the women have the right idea. They just want to push a button and have it all work. Kind of like the Apple philosophy. No, it's not the absolute best quality, but it is reliable and cutting edge in its own way.
Convenience vs Quality = Mars vs Jupiter. Trade-off's either way.
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Maybe they don't care about making it "just work," but care more to just enjoy the content without the technical distractions. That's how I feel about hifi now. I'm trying to boil down what I've learned into a DIY system that allows music to hit the target without obsessing over technical issues or performance compromises, or cluttering up the room with gear. And I don't want to store excess value beyond what the gear actually does. Appearance and brand status are of little value to me. Just gimme the music for the lowest cost and family impact possible, also considering that I am now spoiled by what hifi can do, it still has to sound good.
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Maybe the women have the right idea. They just want to push a button and have it all work.
Bob,
I recently picked up a Logitch Harmony Remote for the livingroom. You program it off the Web via a USB connection at set up softkey buttoms with labels like Watch TV, Wacth a DVD and Listen to Radio. Each button then turns on or off the various ocomponents and switches all the settings required to have the proper audio and/or video selection to the chosen task. They have various models that I have seen for as low as $69 new. A great enhancer of martial harmony. Spend a 1/2 hour to set it up and you will never again get one of those death threatenging call at work saying "I'm trying to watch Martha Stewart. Which #%$@ button to I press to get sound out of the TV!!!! (Oh, come on, we've all been there..... :duh )
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Carlman you are correct in saying there is "no best" . To many variables and subjective views to classify anything as the best. All reviews no matter how thorough are fundamentally flawed. Meaning its the reviewers system, personal taste and most importantly the ROOM [ as you well know] The only true review is by the potential buyer in his or her ROOM.
I also agree with anchor components. Get that classic amp speaker synergy and pre and all that is left is the DAC of the day or CDP of the day.
Now don't get me wrong. There are pieces of the review that may perk our interests or we relate to so not all wasted. Just opinions. Measurements which are important to some may also carry some weight but not all reviews contain such info.
The bottom line ENJOY the music and forget the latest and greatest until one decides to go in another direction. Keep the eye candy and give me tone and dynamics.
charles
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"I'm trying to watch [formula 1]. Which #%$@ button to I press to get sound out of the TV!!!! (Oh, come on, we've all been there..... :duh )
I say that to my 11yo all the time! They have 3 video game consoles connected to the rx, hard to remember the settings for each one, or how to get back!
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A great enhancer of martial harmony. Spend a 1/2 hour to set it up and you will never again get one of those death threatenging call at work saying "I'm trying to watch Martha Stewart. Which #%$@ button to I press to get sound out of the TV!!!! (Oh, come on, we've all been there..... )
Tom:
I love your post as it is right on the money!
I had to leave the speaker attached to our Pioneer Plasma TV. Vera just turns on the TV watches Martha and the Food Channel. She just uses the TV remote and adjusts the volume of that one tv speaker. Vera never turns on the HT Receiver and never calls me to ask with button to push? She is happy and therefore I am happy! :thumb:
Ken
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She is happy and therefore I am happy! :thumb:
What does Jeff Foxworthy say - "When Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!"
I guess the reverse is true as well. :lol:
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It is subjective (and probably why I have no expectation of hearing anything better than I have at home at this weekend's AKFest). It's been years since I've heard anything sound overall better (but I would like to get back some more macro-dynamics).