AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Digital Audio Devices => Topic started by: Nick B on September 21, 2015, 03:56:11 PM
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I've been looking for an "all in one" solution to replace my SB 2. The new Bluesound Node 2 has caught my interest and I just responded to a post at AC about it. Now that I've reluctantly agreed to expand my budget to about $1200, can you guys come up with some other recommendations with that as a maximum? I'm not in computer audio. Just want a coax out to my Dac. The reason I'm considering Bluesound rather than a Sonos is that Bluesound was supposedly designed with audiophiles in mind
Thanks
Nick
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Hi Nick!
Aurelic Aries Mini will be released soon. It will cost $400. It has very excellent specs, femto-second clock means extremely low jitter, very nice iOS and Android app, and all Aurelic products sound very good. Worth a look, if you can wait another couple of months for it.
http://www.auralic.com/
That Node 2 does look pretty nice. Thanks for bringing that to our attention. See if you can find out the jitter spec from the mfg. <1pS clock would be nice.
Rich
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Hi Rich!
I can certainly wait a few more months. The two most important capabilities are the streaming and storage. The ripper in the Bluesound is a plus unless their database and tagging are poor. The mini looks like a great deal. Am curious as to the cost of the 1 or 2 TB storage. Was also reading on Google that software from Roon (the guys who developed Soolos) will be available for the mini. I read up on Roon and saw their YouTube video and it's very impressive. Problem is it costs $119 a year or $499 for the lifetime subscription. I'd only consider the lifetime option as this is a long term investment for me. I'll see if I can get the jitter spec on the Node/Vault
Nick
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Nick, the biggest difference between the Bluesound and Sonos lines is that Bluesound will support digital files up to 192/24, whereas Sonos is limited to 48/16.
If you are looking for a unit with storage you might want to check out the Bluesound Vault line instead of the Noses. The vault is very similar to the nNode except tthat the Vault comes with a 2TB internal drive and a DVD/CD reader so you can rip CDs to the vaults own internal hard drive without needing any other computers ot external drive. A bit more expensive, but it is a one box unit that needs no external support. (You use your own tablet or smartphone to control it.)
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tweakgeek.com has the Aurelic mini on their website, not available for purchase yet... but he should be able to answer questions about it. A 2TB hard drive is not very expensive, but whether you need to buy the option to allow internal HDD I don't know. The native Aurelic app is pretty nice. I doubt you'd need somthing better, but there's always something better!
Of course, you could also just use a small industrial PC as a source, with HiFace2 USB>SPDIF adapter, winders, JRiver, etc. If you are open to that idea of USB output, there are also many linux solutions that are extremely inexpensive and have nice control software. Volumio.com good place to start. Linux knowledge is supposedly not required, but maybe a little...
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I'm very curious to get the Aries Mini units here and see just how much of the performance of the big brother Aries got retained... the app is the main selling point from user experience perspective... i'm hoping the aries mini is finally a true squeezebox replacement.... it's different tech than the SlimServer derived squeezeboxes, but supports every possible file format you'd need for the next number of years.... the price is very very appealing at $399 MSRP.... we are supposed to have stock in a couple more weeks... i've got quite a few folks itching for this one and wanting to get a demo.... they love the user experience of the AURALiC Lightning DS app and how they can control it and interact with their music libraries, as well as Tidal integration and other internet radio, etc.....
The AURALiC products do not have storage built in... nor do the Lumin network players, which is one of the counter-programming alternative products I settled on after trying out a bunch of servers and players... both have USB ports dedicated to you plugging in a USB memory stick or external hard drive... the units then index and serve up the files in their apps to be played and effectively turn the units from a DNLA rendering device/network streamer into DNLA servers and renderers all in one box... it works quite well... I've gotten a Lumin up and playing music out of the box in under 5 minutes with an external hard drive plugged into the back... most of the time was spent downloading and configuring the iPAD app to the customer's preferences... they've added some easy to follow wizards to the AURALiC stuff as well and it can be up and going very, very quickly as well... the only extra wrinkle on AURALiC is wireless setup versus wired ethernet... Lumin only does wired ethernet whereas you have the option of either on auralic aries devices....
So your $1200 budget gets you the base Aries and room for an aftermarket linear power supply if so inclined and paying MSRP (the Aries with AURALiC built linear power supply is $1599 MSRP)... or save cash and try the aries mini first and use the left over cash for linear power supply or some other fun upgrade in your system...
one other option that falls into familiar territory if you are used to SlimServer style interaction is the stuff from SOtM... they make some of the recommended parts that audio pc and audio server builders rely on (their USB cards are the defacto standard for most to get the best possible USB signal out of the computer)... their finished products seem quite good so far in the evaluation under way here... not as polished and refined as the Lumin stuff (I'm a huge fan of the Lumin players... they are pricey though as they are intended to be the complete source solution including DAC built in... think of them as a high end stand alone cd player whereas the auralic aries is the high end cd transport and you have to supply your own DAC.... although the Lumin players do have RCA SPDIF out up to 24/192 if you really want to experiment with other DACs...kind of a waste of the nice DAC and analog board built into the unit though if you know up front you are planning to use your own DAC... and it's a very pricey throwaway for the upper end models especially with their lundahl output transformers, etc. etc...... the auralic is more geared for folks that want to roll their own DACs with only the new aries mini coming with a dac built in (it's a fairly stock implementation of an ESS Sabre chip so not going to bowl you over with performance, but a nice bonus in the mini)...... the aries is just a dnla player/streamer....anyways, rambling again :) the SOtM server/renderers run on linux or windows and use slimserver software for playback... so you could continue to use all your trusty options to control playback off phone, tablet, laptop, etc. that you are currently using with your Squeezebox unit..... it's not like the others require a lot of training to use... my 3 year old can and does run the Lumin app himself to switch to his favorite tunes... seriously, it definitely surprised me when he did it the first time... but it's a very intuitive experience... the wife really likes it over having to use audio PCs and remember where I put stuff on the network :) hahaha....
I've been doing computer based audio for more than 20 years, first with pro sound cards both internal and external to get the signal converted into something a consumer DAC could interpret, then on to USB to SPDIF and or AES/EBU converters... then trying to make USB sound audiophile approved... I've built so many PCs for customers and tried to help guide and tutor folks on how to do it that it boggles my mind to think about it.... a couple nightmare tech support situations recently finally got me to evaluating the best options for network players that were more customer friendly to setup and maintain... things that were stable and offered something truly worthwhile for the price being asked, rather than slightly tweaking a desktop computer and trying to charge 3000% markup... something secured so that the customer couldn't go in and repeatedly delete system files and need me to visit their place to fix the problem 8 times in just three weeks time..... I tried to do the same thing a couple years ago and left unimpressed with the options. There's a ton of new stuff out there now that is very worthwhile.... the biggest key is the user interface and user experience... folks like AURALiC and Lumin have spent millions on their apps to get the overall system very stable, sounding great, and user friendly to use..... in many respects it was amazing how far ahead of the time the squeezebox stuff was... but there are now options that are affordable that do definitely offer significant improvements in features, file formats and resolutions supported, and sound quality that don't blow the budget too bad....
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Hi Shane! That Lumin players look cool. Thanks for making me aware of that. I need to get out more...
http://www.luminmusicusa.com/
Just wanted to add that Aries Mini does have HDD slot for internal storage, according to their features list.
wrt Aries Mini, the combo of ESS DAC with <1pS clock should put it atop all similarly priced consumer level players. The design of the PS and especially the analog output stage will determine where it stands in comparison to dedicated DACs. But I would not be surprised if it sounds marginally better than your Buffalo32, Nick, because the clock jitter is potentially better than B32, and I think the opamp output stage of B32 is not too hard to improve upon. But you have to listen to know for sure.
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Have you considered a Bryston BDP1? You can get them rather cheap now and they have all the bugs run out of them. it can stream Tidal and works good with Mpad. It also has a far superior Powersupply that you will get at that price. Xlr out or coax out. Easily serviceable ...etc.
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Thanks. Am appreciating all the info. A couple of things
1) I'm just not into computer audio and usb
2) it needs to be wireless only with a coax out as I'm definitely going to
Use my dac. The Buff 32 dac that Rich sold me is quite good for the money, but I've already put some money into an old McCormack dac 1 and will probably do the "full Monty " on it. I know I'll never get the money back, but the McCormack stuff is so good this will be my dac for a very long time. His gold + mod of mt DNA 1 amp is outstanding
3) I want on board storage. No umbilicals and extra power cords if at all possible.
4) I don't know anything about the Bryston bop 1, but if it fits my criteria, I'd absolutely consider it.
If others have thoughts. Pls add your comments
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PS. I forgot to mention that my only mild interest in DSD 24/96 etc is if the device has it I'll use use my analog outs, realizing the comparison will be with a lesser dac than my souped up McCormack 16/44 dac1
Nick
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Well, the saga continues and I'm considering alternatives and even usb I have a friend, a dealer in Vegas, recommend the Anrelope Audio products ... He has the Platinum, I believe. I then got a recommendation for the Antelope pro audio adda converter called the Pure 2. I can get one for $2,200 and it uses the architecture of some of the much more expensive Antelope products. It's one of the few dacs I'd consider instead of the upgraded McCormack dac1. So money wise it's a wash as to the dac $$$ as the McCormack would run another $2,200 for the "full Monty" and now I'd get more than just 16/44 with the Pure 2
The ad feature is nice as I plan to digitize my vinyl collection. The Pure 2 does much more than I'll ever comprehend and hopefully it can be mated to a streamer/nas combo that I can control via an iPad. The combo of the Pure 2 ($2200) and the Music Vault Emerald ($2000 - $2500) is more than I want to spend. The Pure 2 is computer based only, but all can be done from the front panel and I'd like to use the streamer software to control the volume and the music files and metadata . So I'm still evaluating streamer/storage options and hoping this might be able to work together. I've spoken to a couple of dealers and Shane is going to call me when he feels better. I'm wondering if an Auralic Aries mini with external power supply will really compromise the sound.
I'm ready to pull the trigger when it all comes together......
Nick
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I've been a long-time Squeezebox fan and continue to use it exclusively for streaming. One of the features I love that I have not seen elsewhere (at a reasonable price) is the ability to stream either the same music or different music to multiple places at the same time.
In my home, the big rig has a Touch streaming to a Devialet (sounds as good as just using the Devialet AIR for streaming). But I also can stream to the SB Radio in the bedroom, a Duet in the dining room, a Touch on the porch and use Squeezeplay on my home computer. Best of all, I can easily stream when I'm at work or traveling as long as I have wifi (or am willing to use my phone data plan). I don't even need a Squeezebox since I can just as easily stream to an old iPhone and use my iFi DAC with it. It all just works and I can control it all from my phone.
While I've seen a number of SB alternatives that would work well in my main rig (some that perhaps would sound better), I haven't seen anything that can handle streaming to multiple locations including remotely at anywhere near a reasonable price.
LMS continues to be improved despite Logitech walking away 3 years ago. It's still difficult to find an SB Touch at a price less than the original MSRP.
So I'm not ready to replace my Squeezeboxen just yet. But always interested to see how the rest of the world is catching up ;-)
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Thanks, Mike, for your perspective. Right now, I'm open to lots of ideas and maybe the Squeezebox is still the way to go. I do like iPeng quite a bit. I'm not a fan of storing the music on the computer and maybe a separate nas would work. Have no idea if a nas needs to be computer based or if it can have its own network and be be controlled by other software. The Devaliet you mentioned is interesting.
Could you comment on which model and do you use it as an integrated including the dac and the phono? Lots of good comments on them, but I notice on hifishark there are lots of them ... maybe 80 or sop worldwide for sale
Thanks,
Nick
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I've got the Devialet 200 - amp, Dac, pre and phono. I've been thru a few different amps and preamps over the years and have to say this sounds better than anything I've had. There is a musical rightness to the Devialet - at least to my ears - and I've been thru some pretty nice equipment.
I've also seen Devialets popping up used fairly often and not sure what that's about. I suppose that if you really like swapping components and cables, the Devialet (or any integrated) is probably not for you. But for me, it's a perfect fit and let's me just relax into the music more than ever. 95% of the time, I'm feeding it via the SB Touch, but I also have a CD transport and turntable into it as well as using it for the front 2 channels of HT in bypass mode. It all just works extremely well.
I use two SB apps: iPeng and SqueezePad. SqueezePad is iPad only and extremely simple to use. My wife loves it and uses it all the time. That's no small thing :rofl:
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Mike, does Devaliaet also stream from network?
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The way it works is that you install it as a driver on the computer where the music is accessible. Then you play the music on that computer. The driver redirects the music over the network to the Devialet instead of playing it locally. The Devialet is also on the network (wireless or wired). It's actually quite slick. But to clarify, the Devialet software on the PC is essentially just a audio driver replacement. It has no front-end for selecting or playing the music itself. You just use whatever your favorite player is. I've heard it works well with JRiver, Foobar, etc... I've read very good things about using HQPlayer on the PC that is then redirected to the Devialet. Haven't done that (yet).
For me in my environment, using iPeng to control the Touch feeding the Devialet is a breeze and something my wife is very comfortable doing. I'm using spdif out of the Touch into the Devialet so it is using the exceptional DAC in the Devialet.
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That's pretty cool, it acts like a "sound device." So you can even use browser as source content like iHeart, Pandora, etc.
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Mike,
The Devialet is tempting as a one box solution with so many capabilities. With SAM and tone controls among other things, have you played with the software to fine tune the sound you want? Is that possible?
Nick
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Nick, it very much is possible, but no I haven't. I've only had it for a few months but I love the sound I'm getting with everything set flat. Haven't even begun to tweak the phono section which is highly tweakable for whatever cartridge I'm using. Just one more thing to look forward to once I get some time.
I love that I can configure it online, download the config file to an SD card, stick it into the Devialet and turn it on. About as easy and intuitive as you can get.
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The Devaliet have a real slick synthetic sound to them. Have you tried using it as a pre amp only? They can be used as an excellent preamp. You get that Devaliet synthetic sound with what ever power you put on it. The dealer here in town has the full line in stock. :thumb:
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Been reading a lot about Devialet. Some guys love the sound and some don't. From their forums, there is dissatisfaction about the AIR streaming function still not working well and not being fixed. Also, this is still a new company and I'm concerned about long term viability. I sure would love a one box solution, though!
Nick
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I have been scanning around for a SBox Touch replacement for awhile.
Love the functionality and the Touch in the main system is complemented by 3 Duets and a SBox Radio around the house.
So why look to replace it? It sounds like crap.
OK a little more detail needed - Using the EDO-enabled Touch (ethernet wired to my network), the coax out into my Marantz SA8005 sounds obviously and completely worse than USB out from an old Win 7 laptop running JRiver. Not close. So not close that I cringe to use the Touch as a source, knowing how much SQ is being left behind.
Is it a poor coax implementation in the Marantz? A super-duper USB implentation? Crappy coax out from the Touch? IDK but in my system the Touch is simply not a suitable source to feed digits to my DAC. (I don't think the EDO-enabled USB out from the Touch works with my DAC).
If any of you are relying on the coax out from the Touch, I encourage you to try some other solution - it might be a revelation as it was for me. (Note - I took the file(s) from my main library hard drive, copied to a USB stick and transferred to the hard drive of the laptop to try to keep the source files as close as possible to other) (BTW USB from laptop to SA8005 sounds better than the original CD played in the SA8005 itself, go figger)
So what to get? I have my eye on the not-yet-released Sonore µRendu, which would be fed wired ethernet and put out USB to the DAC. For software, JRiver at a minimum but the µRendu can act as an HQPlayer NAA, so I'm guessing that might be the best option for a Windows family.
I'm thinking if the laptop sounds so much better than the Touch, then the µRendu/NAA route should spank the laptop. Then add in the possibility of upsampling/deconvolution etc. in HQPlayer, the addition of AQ Jitterbugs or the UpTone Regen etc. and I am hoping to be able to move the SQ of my computer audio files up by several steps for not much $$.
So I got that going for me - (Bill Murray)
-Mike
(edit - in all USB listening above, a piece of shit cheapo 3 meter USB cable was used)
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Mike,
When you say coax out, you mean digital coax to the DAC in your Marantz? Not familiar with the Marantz but I'm surprised that what you're hearing is "obviously and completely worse" than USB out of a PC. Just not my experience... Running digital out into my Devialet using a Black Cat Silverstar 75 cable sounds great to these aging ears.
I have also compared the SB Touch to iFi iDSD to headphones and thought it sounded just as good as Windows USB into the iFi.
Now, I haved played with the EDO implementation a while back but wasn't all that happy so gave up on it (although damned if I can remember why - it was a few years ago).
I am very curious about HQPlayer and that could very well be a game changer with the right setup.
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MD,
I was surprised too, and I didn't think there was anything wrong with the Touch until I tried the USB.
Yes, I am referring to the coax digital out from the Touch (via one of the Black Cat cables; Touch uses Jerome linear pwr supply) vs USB via a $2 generic USB cable from many year-old stock laptop.
I tried to say that there may be some implementation issue particular to my system so as not to say that everyone must be affected similarly. Maybe my Touch is not not working 100%? I don't know. Maybe my old Acer laptop has some weirdly very good USB out? Or my network may be crummy, negatively impacting the Touch performance.
Ahh the joys of computer audio! What storage? What OS? What connection? What player? What sampling rate? What DSP? WTF :rofl:
But bits is bits right? :roll:
And we thought analog was tricky :duh
But for now I still use the Touch as my laptop moves around the house and is only occasionally connected to the main system.
Yup, intrigued by what HQPlayer might bring, esp using the DSD upconversion.
-Mike
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Well, I've just purchased a new in box (older model) Antelope Audio Gold dac with it's hirez capability .... including 384. I love my McCormack DNA Gold amp and it should be a great match. The Antelope can also be used as a passive preamp, so no need right now to spend $$ on a Bent or Tortuga.
So now that i will be doing some hirez, I need a streamer and nas? to be able to handle that. So my SB 2, I believe, does 16/44 only. So, with that in mind, I'd like to revisit on how to proceed. Preferably, I'd like internal storage of at least 2 TB, but an external device would be fine. I guess I could get it in a raid configuration and I could still back that up with a portable drive. Don't want to store the files on a desktop or laptop. A Mac mini has been suggested, but i don't understand the particulars on how it works. Am curious about the Aries mini, but couldn't get a return call from the tweak geek guys. The mini might need an external power supply as well. Still thinking about the music vault Emerald, but it will only do wav, flat and aiff... Whatever that is.
Also, the Emerald only does 24/192.
Looked at SoTM, but price wise, it's more than I want to spend. Tried getting in touch with a couple of guys here on AN, but haven't heard back. New budget is $2,000 or so
Nick
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Just wanted to mention that I was able to connect with Shane and he spent a lot of time discussing computer audio and giving me his thoughts about music streamers...wired vs wireless. As a result, I put a hold on buying a Music Vault device and may evaluate the Auralic Aries mini when it comes out. Thank you, Shane !!!
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Shane is Da Man! :thumb:
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I've decided on the Auralic Aries, just waiting to hear back from Shane. Would like to get a usb 2 T hard drive in a raid configuration. Would appreciate some suggestions re brands, price, reliability etc. I won't be doing multiroom, just audio in the living room. I'll be using the Lightning app.
Also, should I be considering a good quality usb cable? Would that make any difference in this application?