Thinking about getting Tubed

[westcoastman]

I'm thinking about audio alternatives and have read a few articles about tube amps but where does one start when looking for a tube amp?
What are the pitfalls of going this route?
What are the pros/cons of tube amps?
Can one use the same speakers or should one looking for new ones?
Is an integrated tube amp worth considering?
What would one expect to pay to get started with decent quality sounding equipment?

I see these brands advertised such as Mystere, Vincent, PrimaLuna and I am sure there are more but where to start? I use my system most for listening to music. I do watch movies in 2 channel audio which is good enough for me.

Or would a good place to start be with a tube Headphone amp?

[bpape]

IMO, a good first foray into tubes is with a tubed preamp.  They're much easier to maintain than a tube amp and have none of the amp/speaker interface issues that a tube amp does.  Tube amps typically have poor bottom end control and aren't really fond of speakers that have strange impedance curves. 

Bryan

[miklorsmith]

Agreed in full.  The tubed pre/SS amp route is goodness.  Bear in mind the tubes used as well as the circuit will affect how much second harmonic distortion and tubed yummyness you get.  There is such a thing as too much.  Octal tubes like the 6SN7 will impart more tone but with softer signature where preamps using, say the 5687 tube which is fast and linear but might leave you wondering "where dem tubes?"

To produce much power in an amplifier, tubes need to be many or followed by a secondary SS gain stage which some would say is like having your cake and eating it too, others would say it disturbs the purity of tubes which was the point in the first place.  If you can do with small wattage, tubes in the amplifier start making more sense to me.

The particular combination of tubes and circuit is where the magic is so don't get too hung up on which exact tubes the pre is using.  You might concern yourself with replacement availability and cost though.  That's another advantage with going pre instead of amp - preamp tubes are generally much cheaper.

Don't jump on the first glowing review.  The reviewer's taste, their system, room, and musical selections all play into their opinions.  They don't know what you like.  A review can be a good starting point for investigation.

Have some idea what direction you're trying to go in.  If you aren't sure and it's more a matter of trying stuff out, beg borrow steal whatever you can get your hands on and try it at home.  Even dealing on Audiogon isn't free and it can be a pain.  If you can get a few pieces in your house you can formulate triangulation points that will increase chances of success.

My personal opinion is tubed rectification is the way to go but as with everything there can be disagreement with that.

Good luck!

[richidoo]

The new Cayin integrateds are very nice. The KT88 version with 4 tubes per side is one awesome amp at a great price. Swap in the new Genelec KT88s after the stockers wear out and you will be sittin pretty if you can do with the moderate power - 100w maybe?

All tubes is what I prefer, the goodness of a tube pre amped up even more. But I keep looking for a SS amp that can do as well to get rid of the tube negatives. High price, reliability, heat, maintenance, size, lower power/price ratio than SS. The output impedence (in the best cases) is not as low as SS (.01 ohms typical) , and in the worst cases is downright abyssmal, like 3 ohms or even higher. Look for an honest output impedance rating of <1ohm maximum. The lower the output impedance, the better the amp will perform overall into speakers loads withfrequency dependent impedent variations.
http://www.transcendentsound.com/amplifier_output_impedance.htm

To me the headaches and expense of an all tube rig are worth it. I could spew a mouthful of hifi codewords to describe why I like them, but it would mean nothing to you. You just have to hear a good tube system with low distortion, high power tube amps playing through full range low distortion speakers. It will ruin you! If you have a hifi dealer near you that sells VTL or Audio Research, try to go there to hear what it's all about. No guarantees that it will sound good, most dealers can't set up a system properly, but you might get lucky. If not look for a tube audiophile nearby and spend some time with him. We are all nuts and love to share the insanity, so you will get an earful.

If you keep some extra parts on hand like tubes and fuses you can usually fix any of the routine annoyances yourself.  A good brand will have less annoyances than others. It is best to hear a great tube system first, try to fall in love with tubes before spending money on them. You will need the lust factor already built up high enough to help you coast through the learning frustration when it doesn't behave like a denon receiver.

Rich

[Bill O'Connell]

I recently picked up the Glow amp. I strictly use it as a headphone amp( just what I need,another tube amp laying around  )but it is one sweet sounding EL84 amp for about $500. It plays really well with the Audio-Technica W1000 headphones.My Dac turned all to crap when I ran the Isotek burnin disc thru it at full range setting as I thought it would be good to also make sure the headphones were burned in as it was sitting idle for a while. Big mistake, don't do this, it fried my Dac for some reason but the headphones are fine and survived my stupidity, so I figured I might as well have a headphone amp also that has a USB and this amp also lets you use speakers with it. Of course they have to be pretty sensitive speakers as 5 watts will only get you so far but westcoastman it would be a good start.

[Bigfish8]

I'm thinking about audio alternatives and have read a few articles about tube amps but where does one start when looking for a tube amp?
What are the pitfalls of going this route?
What are the pros/cons of tube amps?
Can one use the same speakers or should one looking for new ones?
Is an integrated tube amp worth considering?
What would one expect to pay to get started with decent quality sounding equipment?

I see these brands advertised such as Mystere, Vincent, PrimaLuna and I am sure there are more but where to start? I use my system most for listening to music. I do watch movies in 2 channel audio which is good enough for me.

Or would a good place to start be with a tube Headphone amp?

Let me start by saying I own a tube preamp and SS Monoblock Amps.  I think one of the biggest pro factors for tube amps is that they look like what you expect high-end audiophile gear to look like.  People will visit your house that have never seen a tube amp before and be wowed by the appearance.  I also believe if you work to complete a system built around tube amps the sound can be pretty special.

The negatives are high cost per watt of output compared to SS although there are some pricey SS Amps but they tend to generate some major watts.  Tubes have a life expectancy and can be expensive to replace.  They generate more heat than SS amps (plus in winter and a big negative in the summer).  They have to biased.  If you select inefficient speakers expect your tube amp selection to be limited and anything above 100W/Channel will be pretty expensive.  You can leave you SS amps on around the clock so those babies are ready to play when you want to listen.  Due to tube life and cost of tube replacement, plus heat generation most people turn tube amps off when not in use.

Again, as I said earlier I really like the looks of tube amps and at one time I thought I would like to have a pair.  After really investigating the positives and negatives I will stay with SS and Tube Preamps.

Good Luck,

Ken

[westcoastman]

Thanks for all the advice guys.  It sounds like if I was to "get tubed", a tube pre-amp would be the way to go with SS for power. 

So when looking for a tube pre-amp...what should I be looking for in specs. I know how important it is to one ears and I would be looking for the right balance between specs and sound.

I understand all tubes have their own sonic signature...so is if finding a pre-amp that fits with my existing components and listening for the sound I like?

[Bigfish8]

Thanks for all the advice guys.  It sounds like if I was to "get tubed", a tube pre-amp would be the way to go with SS for power. 

So when looking for a tube pre-amp...what should I be looking for in specs. I know how important it is to one ears and I would be looking for the right balance between specs and sound.

I understand all tubes have their own sonic signature...so is if finding a pre-amp that fits with my existing components and listening for the sound I like?

My advice is to try to trial some preamps in your system to allow you to select the one you like best.  Do your homework and purchase a piece of gear from a manufacturer that has a good reputation for customer service (you never know when you might need it).  I don't read comments about preamp specs as people tend to concentrate their comments on performance.  Some highly regarded preamps to consider:

Odyssey Audio Candela
Eastern Electric Mini Max
ModWright 9.0SE or the 36.5
Dodd Audio Preamp

Good luck and have fun!

Ken

PS.  Once you chose a tube preamp you will then experience all the fun of rolling tubes!

[richidoo]

SAS preamps are excellent, and there is a new entry level model available now called 7A for about $1000?
http://www.sasaudiolabs.com/

I own the Minimax. I found it to be an excellent value among tube preamps.  I also auditioned Van Alstine T8, SAS 11A (best of all, but too expensive for me, that was before the 7A came out), McIntosh C220, Manley Shrimp. There are many more. DeHavilland, Juicy, ModWright....

[mboldda1]

right now i have a tube preamp and ss amp, the sound is very good,clean, precise, fast, midrange to die for....... but then i bought a jolida 502b tube integrated for my secondary system and just had to try it in the main rig.  there's just something about the all tube sound, instruments just sound more natural and 3d.  metal sounds like metal, wood like wood,  decay, harmonics, pace, female/male vocals are just....well... right.
now i'm looking to replace (or at least have another option on hand) my usher power amp which a lot of people describe as "tubelike" in sound with a tube power amp, so far after reading all great reviews by owners and "pros" and because of a great price that i found, i'm leaning towards the consonance cyber 800 monos.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue34/opera_cyber800.htm

[westcoastman]

Thanks again guys...just started checking out some of the recommendations and links.

What are "tube dampers"?  I see that they are on the SAS models.

[richidoo]

Tube dampers like Herbies add slightly damped mass to the tube envelope preventing vibration at frequencies that are resonant with the inner metal parts. When those vibrate the vibration is amplified and pollutes the music signal with environmental vibrations. When a tube noticably amplifies vibrations it is said to be "microphonic."  All tubes are to a small degree, but some tubes, especially some small signal tubes are extremely microphonic, so damping the vibrations helps quiet them down. You can test how microphonic a tube is by gently tapping or flicking it with your finger nail while the amp is on. If you can hear anything through the speakers, you might consider damping it. Small tubes which provide voltage gain respond better to damping than power tubes which are usually just current buffers. Any vibration that affects their performance is not amplified, although damping a sensitive power tube will reduce distortion anyway. Herbies seem to work well, and they don't melt onto the tube like some O rings do.
http://herbiesaudiolab.home.att.net/

[westcoastman]

Tubes...a whole new world! Leaves me with lots of stuff to research on.