Author Topic: Lets Talk About Digital or Switching Amps  (Read 27810 times)

biglou

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Lets Talk About Digital or Switching Amps
« on: July 05, 2007, 07:36:10 PM »
I dont know squat about this area of audio... best products? designers? seems like RWA is super well liked, Trends has some good reviews... comments?

Offline richidoo

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Re: Lets Talk About Digital or Switching Amps
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2007, 08:57:55 PM »
I'm a Hypex fan. Almost set off down that path before tubes bit me in the ass. I still would like to give it a whirl as a DIY project using Hypex amplifier modules. But like any amp, power supply design affects the sound quality, and my knowledge of that is limited to what the "experts" on DIYaudio have to offer. There was word some months back that Hypex would offer a switching power supply to compliment their amplifiers, but I have not seen another word about that. Hypex have just released new versions of their amps which have now been tweeked for audiophile quality sound. They incorporated a lot of the tweeks discovered on the audio forums, like input buffer chip, separate buffer power supply, better caps, the usual suspects. Last I read a couple weeks ago DIYCable had not yet received any of the new modules.

I think they have tremendous potential, especially the Hypex design. I think we will be talking a lot more about them in the near future when the implementation is enhanced to reach true high end quality sound. I think it is possible in some of the designs. CIAudio has a great little amp in their D200, a highly modified version of hypex UcD400 module. Lots of happy customers and great reviews, even in that stupid TAS digital amp shootout last summer.

I have sampled Nuforce 9.02SE 2 winters ago when it first shipped, courtesy of Shane, thehometheaterdoc.com. They were a lot of fun to play loud, very low distortion and smooth power on any music. Bass range was very entertaining up to the current limit which was not terribly high despite  the hype about the 1000+w peak power supply capacity. I "heard" Beethoven for the first time on those NuForce amps and Tact correction :) Great experience, thanks Shane!!! BUT! The top end of the amps was not up to Robert Harley's product of the year hype. Grainy, a little brittle. It still sounded the same 10 months later at RMAF. I have also heard of quality problems, and basic design issues, RF design is not strong and it needs to be with this type of amp. I imagine a lot of that has improved in the last year because they sure seem eager to make a go of it and the company head seems to be concerned about all these issues and is eagerly trying to grow the company. I would try them again on next major version upgrade.

Are Trends and RWA analog switching amps? I thought they were chip amps? I dunno squat about that area of audio!  :lol:

biglou

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Re: Lets Talk About Digital or Switching Amps
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2007, 09:34:41 PM »
i know so little i thought a "chip amp" was a digital amp... unfortunately i've no DIY experience but i have heard good things about the CIA Amp you mentioned. i live in Little Rock, AR and the HiFi scene here is pretty bleak. hopefully i'll go to Rocky Mountain AF this year and hear some new stuff.

i'd really like to hear the RWA stuff as well as some Omega Max Hemps. i want to do a system as different as possible from what i have now, and the RWA/Omega combo intrigues me as does the Altmann DAC.

we need an "Audiophile Item of the Month Club" where a new piece comes each month and then you pass it on or keep it and pay a fee.

Offline bpape

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Re: Lets Talk About Digital or Switching Amps
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2007, 04:08:15 AM »
The Hypex designs are some the best I've heard.  That said, they're not IMO ready for prime time just yet.  I find Richie's comments pretty accurate.  Great on the bottom end, 'hollow' watts, a bit brittle on top, etc.  In addition, it's similar to the 'sterile' sound we've been discussing on the preamp thread.

Bryan
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Offline RichardS

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Re: Lets Talk About Digital or Switching Amps
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2007, 05:24:59 AM »
I've got several so-called 'digital' amps in house, including a Bel Canto S-300 (ICE), a PS Audio HCA-2 (RAM mods) and a couple Tact 2150s. In my main system, over the last 5-6 years, I went from  Pass monos (FET solid state) to BC Evo monos (digital switching) to a Gamut D-200 (FET solid state) to (inductive SS) Aloia and finally the Tact 2150 (digital input).

I liked the Pass quite a bit, but they were room heaters and kept my air-conitioner going too much, not to mention the electric bill. The Evos provided a nice intimacy and smoothness with good bass, but didn't have the detail in the mids that I wanted. The Gamut gave me a more 'neutral' sound with more detail. The musical information came across faster and cleaner. There was more air and instuments were better placed in a wider soundstage, without sacrificing natural tonality. But the Tact is where I've settled for the time being, matched to a Tact 2.2x preamp (modded). The 2150 is actually a DAC that swings enough voltage to be used as an amp, a power DAC.

It provides a refreshing sense of ease with more body than the other 'digital' amps. Not as much body as good tube equipment, but enough (for me) to sound natural and effortless. Great clarity and inner detailing. Soundstage width and depth are very good, very genuine. Imaging is first-rate. Tonality is very good. Strings are open and wind instruments provide nice attack and decay. Voices are palpable with life-like presence.

The stage isn’t as expansive as the Gamut was. Strings aren’t as sweet as the Pass or Aloia I had. Voices aren’t quite as natural and present as the Pass. But it’s close in all these areas and brings its own strengths to the table, especially regarding liveliness and natural detail and dynamics.

The presentation is more to the detailed side than the warm side, though never sounding etched or lean (well, maybe a little lean). Those desiring a lush tube sound, though, would probably like to look elsewhere. Replacing a DAC and amp, I think it's a great value and very under-rated.

I use the S-300 to power the (4-ohm) subs in my main system, where it does a good job. I use the HCA-2 in my studio set-up, paired with Talon speakers. With cap and wiring upgrades, this is actually a pretty good amp. Nice detail in the mids, good dynamics, somewhat forward and lively and great bass. A little lean, and a slight hardness on top, but a good match with a warm speaker.

I think 'digital' amps in general (though they all sound different) are proving to be a force in that they bring audiophile sound to less well-heeled audiophiles. Tube guys will stay with tubes for their warmth and rich tone, but these amps have begun a revolution in affordable high-end. I doubt I'll ever go back to $7K+ SS amps again. And I think the TAS piece was ridiculous and biased. Of course these inexpensive amps don't better state-of-the-art kilobuck SS amps. But compare them to equivalently-priced solid state or tubes and it's a different story.

miklorsmith

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Re: Lets Talk About Digital or Switching Amps
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2007, 08:15:48 AM »
Nice post, Richard!

I think of "chip amps" as being the 47 Labs Gaincard and offspring, i.e. Peter Daniels' (Audio Zone, AudioSector) Patek, Amp-1, and Amp-2 monos.  The gainclones would fit in this category.

I don't know what, if anything, separates these from switching amps, i.e. Tripath (Red Wine, older Bel Canto), ICE, Hypex, and NuForce.  PS Audio has their own proprietary scheme.  FWIW, all these technologies are different despite their lumped "switching" descriptor.

I had an Amp-1 on my second system and still wish I hadn't sold it.  It was a hugely dynamic, extended, and smooth bugger.  At the time, I didn't see how to use the 1-input integrated properly with multiple sources.

I had two Clari-Ts, now defunct, which were 6-watt battery Tripath amps from Red Wine.  They were super with a tubed pre, not gritty or grainy at all.

I had a PS Audio HCA-2.  I liked it quite a bit but I think the Stereophile "Class A" rating was more based on the groundbreaking technology (which actually came after the first Bel Cantos) and the different sound, which on it's own was pretty chilly, though smooth.

I currently use a RWA-modded Teac Tripath on my second system and like it a lot.

My main amps are RWA Signature 70s and they're superb.  Their voice is always smooth and clear and carry the voice of the preamp.  They are probably not as dynamic as some but my system is very strong in that area and this is not a negative for me.

I had earlier NuForces on demo and didn't care for them.  They were hopped up and hi-fi all the way.  I'm sure they're getting better.

Generally, I try to avoid switching power supplies in everything I can.  They are purported to put noise back into the remainder of the AC system and are said to need power conditioning more than other gear, possibly for related reasons.  My power is pretty clean and my conditioning minimal.  Linear supplies make more sense to me, as they are generally recognized to be the better (though more expensive) route.

WEEZ

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Re: Lets Talk About Digital or Switching Amps
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2007, 09:07:15 AM »
I don't know much about class D amps; and have never heard one in my home. Last year at RMAF, I went into a few of the rooms that were using and/or showing them. None of them generated enough interest for me to want to buy one.

I must admit, though, that Ryan Tew's Red Dragon amps were stunning to look at; and the sound in that room was buttery smooth. The Daedalus speakers likely contributed to that smoothness. I think they are ICE modules...not sure. Not cheap, either.

biglou

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Re: Lets Talk About Digital or Switching Amps
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2007, 09:34:27 AM »
speaking of digital amps... this is 6moons latest review

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/kingrex/t20.html

the 220 dollar King Rex

Offline Carlman

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Re: Lets Talk About Digital or Switching Amps
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2007, 07:15:35 PM »
I've tried/heard/lived with a few digital amps.... I agree with Richard's assessment of the TacT 2150, one of the more surprisingly good amps out there.... It has more strengths than weaknesses for sure but I decided I wanted tubes and a truly analog path for vinyl.... not sure why now.... Ever since I've had the tube/analog setup I've listened to vinyl all of once or twice. ;)  Anyway, if you can afford to get the 2150 modified by Anthony at Aberdeen, I think that'd be a very good idea... His mods added PRaT and realism with every step to my 2.0 preamp/DAC....

Anyway... I think I'm the only one that doesn't care for the CIA D200's or D100's... They're like fingernails on a chalkboard to me... just way too 'digital' sounding... like the music is playing through a high-speed fan... They're probably perfect for some systems and certainly get some good reviews...

I've heard the Nuforce amps and had the same reaction as Rich... great bass, brittle highs, unrealistic mids... I don't know where they are with their development these days.... Hopefully ironing out the issues.

I listened to Bel Canto's integrated digital a long time ago... can't remember the model... very nice, but didn't do anything magical... a solid performer, though... and you pay for that performance.

That's about all I've heard... I didn't bother with the T-amp or some of the latest darlings... Oh, except I did try a couple of Sharp amps... an EX-111 and another one... can't remember... they were OK... but kind of 'dirty' in the highs and veiled in the mids compared to good hifi.  BrunoB, a local club-guy, had a Sharp with a purple volume knob that sounded pretty good... a little sterile but better than the ones I had... don't remember the model.

Anyway, the sound quality of these amps has varied from (technically/arguably) very good to very bad.  So, it's like anything else... you'll love some, you'll hate some... you'll feel nothing about others.  So, you'll have to hear them to find out which attaches you to the music the most... if at all.  For me, it was the TacT.  None of the others attached me to the musical presentation at all.  Just my 2 pennies.

-Carl
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline bpape

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Re: Lets Talk About Digital or Switching Amps
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2007, 07:48:54 PM »
I'd stretch it to say:

- Hate some
- Don't like some
- Can tolerate others
- Haven't found one yet I love and could live with long term

....  call me old school - and I don't even run tube amps.

Bryan
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Lets Talk About Digital or Switching Amps
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2007, 06:28:14 AM »
Well Carl, you will love the CIA room at RMAF!  They just announce their new D-500 amp will debut there. $4500(?) pair, 500watts into 4 ohms, can play into 1ohm all day. Two UcD400s running together. It is not a UcD700 module. Nobody has heard it yet, so should be fun. He demos with Von Schweikert. I've never heard either brand!

I think the high frequency issues are more apparent when listening through very revealing speakers. Being that the price is more accessible on some of these switchers than equivalent spec linear amps, they will tend to paired with more flattering speakers that might not tell all. And without the audible screech, they will sound pretty good and continue to grow in popularity. High enders' intrigue will continue and when someone makes a great one, look out!

So T amps are switchers - A HA! Now I know. Tripath, ICE-Power, and Hypex are the three major topologies, with a couple others built up discreet. These three brands are switchers, all make modules for manufacturers to incorporate into their own designs. A lot of amp makers have dipped in their toe, some got their toes bitten off, like Cary, ARC.

Chip amps I think are all-in-one linear solid state amplifiers on a chip. You provide signal, power, and cooling and they do the rest. Some were developed for high end car stereo use and sound damn fine! Read about Charles Altmann's BYOB amp for some gushing customer reviews. They have brutal overload characteristics but can be bridged, etc. They can handle a lot of current.

As I understand it, a linear amp (transistor, tube, chip) draws the output waveform by varying voltage directly and proportionally to the input signal, by direct amplification. It is a linear gain. A digital amp, or "analog switching" amp as their marketing departments prefer to be called is not linear. The output device (transistor) draws the output waveform in quantum steps of equal +/- voltage gain magnitude which looks like sawtooth. The switching frequency is fast enough to allow the comparator controlling the output devices to draw frequencies beyond audible 20kHz. A filter after the output device washes off the sawtooth frequency leaving a very accurate final output signal.

Hypex in particular is, on paper, and on test bench, nothing short of awesome. For a true audionervosal type, this brings out the perfectionist like no other amp. If someone can get it to sound good, we will all be using them. But even Hypex acknowledges that the original modules could be improved and they have done so with their new versions which use audiophile grade parts based on DIYaudio gang's free R&D service. CIAudio also specifies stripped modules which he finishes with his own parts. Being a new technology, we can envision trying out new versions of output devices, power supplies, comparators, input stage chips, signal caps, everything has to be worked out from scratch from the audiophile's perspective. They are gradually taking over the low end of $300 home receivers, and will eventually move up the ladder as always happens.

My personal opinion is that the switching frequency has to go up up up. Transistors can handle high freq, but maybe not at high power? Hypex seems to think their 350kHz is fast enough, and maybe it is. Seems like the faster the switching frequency, the lower amplitude the switching "fuzz" will be, to the point that
a small choke or some audio transparent filter could be used, or not even necessary. Of course, same goes for digitally stored audio data. With PCs running at 3GHz in every home, audio sampled at 44.1kHz seems archaic!
Rich


miklorsmith

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Re: Lets Talk About Digital or Switching Amps
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2007, 07:17:38 AM »
You guys should hear Vinnie's Signature amps.  With a tubed preamp in front they are ooo laa laa yummy.  Without it they are smooth and cool, still not the stuff of digital reputation.

Dusty at CIA said a while back he didn't think the UcD 700 watt modules sounded as good as the 200 watt versions.  Being the intrepid explorer, he straps the small ones together!  He'll have legions of support I'm sure.  I've never heard his amps.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2007, 08:15:38 AM by miklorsmith »

Offline richidoo

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Re: Lets Talk About Digital or Switching Amps
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2007, 07:40:39 AM »
It's funny because the Hypex site said that the 700 was designed with audiophile concerns in mind. And the other ones weren't? PR is a tough egg to crack.

Offline Carlman

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Re: Lets Talk About Digital or Switching Amps
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2007, 09:56:05 AM »
One other amp I forgot that I've heard is Scott Nixon's monoblocks... I had a pair of his DIY-versions and borrowed a pair of the ones Scott sells as a final product.  For a mid-power system, they were very agreeable.  So, now there are 2 digital, chip, or switching amps that I've enjoyed so far...  I know I shouldn't lump them all together like that but that's the best I can do.

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline hometheaterdoc

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Re: Lets Talk About Digital or Switching Amps
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2007, 06:49:12 PM »
Anyway... I think I'm the only one that doesn't care for the CIA D200's or D100's... They're like fingernails on a chalkboard to me...

No, you not....
Shane Sangster
Used to be Night & Day Audio.......