Author Topic: Transcendent Sound GG Preamp  (Read 24762 times)

Offline richidoo

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Transcendent Sound GG Preamp
« on: September 19, 2008, 06:28:08 PM »


I bought this little preamp as a kit last month. I had just finished it before the G2G so it was sounding rough before break in, so I didn't play it then.

Now that it is broken in, I can comment on the sound. It is AWESOME!!! A lot of solid authoritative bass came into the system with it, so once again the Snappers are absolved of blame, this time for wimpy bass. The preamp is very lively and present. It commands your attention, music sounds very important and valuable. You don't want to miss a note. Even some silly waltz on the radio that would otherwise be dismissed as elevator music really caught my attention, the violin sound, the pizzicatos, the gorgeous thick tone made me stop talking to my wife midsentence (happens all the time) to listen. There is a thickness to the tone that reminds me of the luscious EE M156 amps which gave that in much larger doses. You can grab a note and really hold on to it, you can feel the sound physically in your brain. It is a more physical listening experience.  There is noticably more euphonic tubular distortion in it than the Minimax with my favorite stock EE tubes. But the minimax parts quality is higher, like the alps blue pot, so some mods should improve GG a bit more. But even as stock it is a very enjoyable little bugger! It is extremely fast and detailed, and alive sounding, with abundant tube warmth. Stock EH 12AU7 tubes, for now.

But it was SO MUCH DAMN FUN building it. So much fun that I didn't want to stop so I worked too late one night, past the idiot hour and made a mistake by soldering in a PS filter cap backwards. After replacing the melted transformer and bulged cap I had a blissful week of incredible sound. But after a few days I started noticing hiss under the music. After two weeks it was definitely getting louder so I took it out worried it might bang. One friend who owned the preamp said his was dead quiet, and the mfg webpage says "no hiss, no hum, no nothing." A tube amp building friend suggested that the Zener regulators might have been damaged by the errant cap, so I replaced those and the hiss did reduce by maybe 25%, maybe more. But it's still there, probably the same as when I first started playing it. The music sounds so good, it is not hard to ignore the hiss. My amps have 31dB gain, so I think that's probably the main cause of the hiss problem. If I could crank up the preamp louder then I would get all 92dB S/N as advertised, or at least "quiet enough" ;) The mfg's own amps are only 20dB gain, hence the "no hiss, no nothin" claim.  The Minimax preamp has no noticable hiss at all, but it is lower gain, I can turn that up to 12 oclock for normal loudish listening. GG is loud at 9 oclock.

If I want to reduce the gain of the preamp, should I pad the input or the output?  Goldpoint describes how to reduce overall gain by padding at the volume control with a resistor network. I have seen someone mention putting a resistor on the output, or even an RCA lump inserted into the cabling to attenuate. Which is better in theory? I would probably take 6dB off.  The preamp spec claims 12dB gain, but I think mine is more than that. Minimax is 9dB gain which is about right.

If I can cure the hiss, then I am considering modding some of the circuit components. Maybe some of these upgrades will reduce the hiss? The parts in the kit are all decent quality, but nothing extra fancy. Kit signal resistors are already metal film so I doubt this much hiss is coming from them.  The kit parts all seem to be sourced from Mouser.

I am considering these upgrade parts for it.
Dueland VSF 1uF coupling output caps
PRP 1/2W and Mills 2W resistors
Cree silicon carbide schottkey rectifier diodes
Power supply caps are 22uF, 350V - any suggestions for these? Xicon electrolytics are installed now.
Goldpoint stepped volume control (50k like stock), OR Bent PRM-1 Solo (only 10kOhm input Z)
Is there anyway to raise the 10kohm input impedance on the Bent?
Goldpoint source switch
JPS solid core hookup wire (should signals be shielded inside the case? My grover ICs are not)
WBT Nexgen RCA jacks
White pine cabinet to reduce the amplitude and happy up the flavor of the chassis resonance.

It would probably be smarter to just build the thing again using these parts, instead of wasting all the stock parts and the effort and mess of replacing everything. Or maybe just build it point to point wiring?? Now that would be fun!!

Open to all ideas and advice!
Thanks
Rich

Offline stereofool

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Re: Transcendent Sound GG Preamp
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2008, 06:46:26 PM »
Thanks for the update...Rich  :)!

I'm glad that you are having fun, and finding something that enhances your listening pleasure.

I've been kinda looking at that preamp, myself...it certainly reads as interesting.
Steve
Have you ever noticed.... Anyone going slower than you is an idiot...and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?

Offline richidoo

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Re: Transcendent Sound GG Preamp
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2008, 07:00:07 PM »
You can try it anytime. It weighs about 4 pounds total so I can mail it to you cheap. It is not as smooth as your ARC Ref 1, but sassier!  Maybe all decked out it might be as refined and keep the sassy, that's what I'm hopin.  But I'm lookin at some other preamp / VC things too. Who knows where it all leads. Poorhouse, I guess??  :rofl:

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: Transcendent Sound GG Preamp
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2008, 07:15:22 PM »
Rich, If you are going to swap out diodes the 10amp Cree C2D10120D would be a good part to put in the circuit, the bigger the diode in the bridge the lower the dynamic power supply impedance will be. This is more important than the speed of the diode or its' recovery characteristics. Having said this,Shottkys are still my favorite type of diode for power supply rectification if a large enough one can be had for a given application.
As the preamps' hiss level started out very low and has gotten louder with time this indicates a problem that is getting worse and possibly a failing part, certainly this is not normal behavior of a properly functioning circuit. A call or email to the mfgr is in order. You may also have a noisy tube,try a spare tube in it's place if you have one. According to the Transcendent Sound website the two preamps have the same Signal to noise Ratio, I am thinking there is something hinky with the G2G.
Scotty
 
     

Offline richidoo

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Re: Transcendent Sound GG Preamp
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2008, 07:38:05 AM »
The new Zeners reduced the hiss a lot, then reduced even more after a couple hours break in. But it is still too loud for high end preamp, compared to other models. I think padding the overall level of the preamp will take down the hiss enough. Should resistors come before or come after the amp stage?

Scotty, thanks for the advice to "go big" on the rectifier. But is there any downside to using larger rectifier diodes besides higher price? Stock is 1N4007, rated 1A.  Should soft recovery diodes still need to be bypassed, or is that just overkill?





mgalusha

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Re: Transcendent Sound GG Preamp
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2008, 10:13:53 AM »
If you build a voltage divider it needs to come after the preamp, preferably physically close to the amp inputs to reduce any problems caused by the impedance of the resistor network though the Snapper's have a high Zin, so this likely won't be a big problem.

Bypassing soft recovery diodes is usually not needed but I have read varying thoughts on this. (of course) I have done it both ways but in my GG I did not bypass the diodes.

I agree with Scotty, Schottky diodes are great if you can get them at a high enough voltage as they essentially have zero recovery time and no switching noise. You need diodes with at least a 600PIV rating. This to accommodate the peak voltages on both sides of 0. 200V RMS is about 282V each direction, so you need to be able to handle 564V peaks. The Cree SiC diodes are high voltage Schottky, so they are theoretically the way to go but pretty expensive compared to something like a Fairchild Stealth FRED diode. :)
mike
« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 10:28:25 AM by mgalusha »

Offline richidoo

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Re: Transcendent Sound GG Preamp
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2008, 11:13:23 AM »
Thanks Mike!

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: Transcendent Sound GG Preamp
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2008, 03:32:22 PM »
Rich,there is no downside to using the biggest diode you can in your bridge. I have always used bigger than necessary diodes in all of my projects per Stan Warrens recommendation. Oversizing the diodes has always improved the dynamic response of the circuit and you should see an obvious improvement from this change alone.
Scotty

Offline richidoo

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Re: Transcendent Sound GG Preamp
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2008, 05:37:23 PM »
I ordered some Fairchild Stealth 8A 600V diodes for the rails. Heaters are regulated so they can keep 1n4007 for now. I will also replace the other PS cap from the burnt tranny, I only replaced the backward one before. Thanks for the advice guys. I'll letcha know how it goes.

Last night I listened to new Beethoven 2nd and 7th on BIS. This last CD rounds out my fav cycle. It didn't do much for me. The hiss was as loud as the quiet instruments on the 7th's second movement and the sound was not clear and focused. Today I tried again, still flat and boring, getting edgier. So I plucked it. byebye broken POS.  Put the Minimax back in.... ahhhhhhhhhh    Wow, what a great preamp. Pure effortless tone, the beautiful music is back! The Beethoven came to life, the conductor didn't fuck up this beautiful historic finale to a great symphony cycle afterall. All the instruments snapped into proper tone and position. I didn't have to imagine the soundstage anymore, it was vivid. The music came through. After a month of screwing around building and fixing I finally made contact again. Why do I wander? I wonder...  just the fun of following curiosity I guess. Not sure this little GG excursion will pay off, but we'll see. Right now Minimax is in no danger.

I kept the GG in all this time because it had much better bass - so I thought. I started using the GG at the same time I put a lot of bass treatment into the room, and mistakenly attributed the improved bass to GG. With Minimax back in now, the improved bass SPL remains, but a lot clearer. Bill, your minimax is an incredible piece of gear. Hard to believe what it does for the price. Thanks!

Rich

Offline richidoo

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Re: Transcendent Sound GG Preamp
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2008, 11:44:11 AM »
New rectifier diodes make no difference in the hiss, still loud as ever even on SteveB's Sim W3 26dB gain SS amp.

On the plus side, the new diodes make the bass even more impressive than before. Everything sounds a little bigger. :)  Nice mod!  Thanks for the ide-er.
Rich

mgalusha

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Re: Transcendent Sound GG Preamp
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2008, 02:00:03 PM »
Did you get the new power supply caps in? I am curious to know if that helps.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Transcendent Sound GG Preamp
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2008, 03:23:30 PM »
I have two new Xicons to replace the two that I didn't replace before on the + rail. Might get to it tonight. 

edit: Installed them onto the + rail PS, and there is good news and bad news.  The hiss is gone!  But only in irght channel. :duh

Well, that points me in the right direction, so I will replace all the caps with nice Nichicons that Mike recommended. Hopefully that will get the other channel quiet. The backward cap must have damaged other parts downline.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 06:39:42 PM by richidoo »

opnly bafld

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Re: Transcendent Sound GG Preamp
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2008, 07:07:04 PM »
made me stop talking to my wife midsentence (happens all the time)

Not to worry Rich, she stops listening after the first word:rofl:


Lin ;)

Offline richidoo

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Re: Transcendent Sound GG Preamp
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2008, 05:07:49 AM »
 :lol:

Offline bpape

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Re: Transcendent Sound GG Preamp
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2008, 06:47:30 AM »
Sounds like you've almost got it licked.  I was having a hard time figuring out why you would have ANY hiss at all.  That's a fully passive design, isn't it?

Bryan
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