AudioNervosa
The Market => Group Buys, Groupons, and Tours => Topic started by: DaveC on July 13, 2013, 12:01:25 AM
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OK, gearing up! So far we have:
Nick B
sleepyguy24
StereoNut
bpape
Please message me with your address and phone number.
Let me know if anyone else is interested, I can always add you on. :thumb:
The D3 isn't ready for prime time yet, it's expensive, takes A LOT of labor to build and is really hard to tell apart from the D2. Not worth it for double the price... but it's a testament to how incredibly good the EC-UPOCC copper wire really is. I think if I build a silver wire it's going to have to be EC-UPOCC silver, and I'd need to order nearly $20k worth of it as a minimum order. Probably need to put that on the back burner for now...
Also, some good news... My 14g EC-UPOCC wire has been built and is ready to ship! :dj:
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Hi Dave,
You have a PM
Nick
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Hi Dave,
You have a PM
Nick
+1 :thumb:
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+2
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+3 :thumb:
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Dave,
I am all in on the speaker cable tour [-o<
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Thanks for making the tour thread Carlman :thumb: It has been suggested to include speaker cables as well... Should I include speaker cables in this tour? It would delay things by a couple weeks, but then you guys could try both ICs and SCs at the same time. :) I am leaning toward sending out speaker cables too.
Also, how long of a test period would be good? I was thinking one week unless alternate arrangements are made, if you have a local group of friends who would like to check them out it would be fine to make that leg of the tour longer.
Shipping with insurance to the next person on tour or back to me if you're the last stop is required, it shouldn't be too expensive. I think UPS is probably the way to go, USPS charges a lot for insurance and is difficult to recover money from if the package does get lost.
End Date: If I include speaker cables and mdfoy on the tour I would ship in 2 weeks, there are 5 stops on the tour, and with bpape as a longer last stop (is 3 weeks ok for you?). Also, I will include 2 weeks of time for shipping. That would make the end date 11 weeks out, which is very close to October 1st.
The only other expectation is that you post here about your experience trying out the cables.
Did I miss anything? :)
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SHould be fine. I will be out of town for 2 weeks Aug 9 - Aug 23 so as long as they don't show up in that timeframe, I'm good. As long as I'm last, 3-4 weeks should be fine. I know I have at least 4-5 guys that want to check them out.
As for speaker cables, my cuz has made other arrangements and nobody else I know is in the market for speaker cables so that's up to you.
Bryan
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Dave,
I am in. :drool:
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Dave do not confuse things. One thingie at a time.My 2 cents. Make sure they have 200 plus hours on them or you are pissing in the wind.
We cooked the cable on the Cable Cooker and still needed time to come through.
They changed dramatically from day one. Now with 500 hours they are very impressive. They need more time than you think, some will just give up and that is not fair to your product. Leave no excuses, break them in first.
charles
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Yes, I will break in the cables... I have made a cd player into an IC burner and can hook up a couple pairs of ICs at a time.
Speaker cables seem to break in faster than ICs with the increased voltage and current, but I will definitely give them some time in my system before I send them out.
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I'm in for the interconnects, not so interested in the speaker cables.
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Maybe 2 separate tours - 1 for interconnects and 1 for speaker cables?
Just a thought.
Bryan
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Maybe 2 separate tours - 1 for interconnects and 1 for speaker cables?
Just a thought.
Bryan
+1 :thumb:
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I'm in for the ICs definitely but I could try the speaker cables too if really needed. I finally set up my 2nd system properly so I could do speaker cable review but it would only be vs budget speaker cables. DH Labs TL-14 cables to be exact. Kind of like a featherweight taking on a Heavyweight. I don't think the DH Labs cables stand much of a chance.
Also with the Dave's speaker cables I was under the impression they were only meant for quality flea watt tube amps. I only have a higher powered tube amp available.
So I could try the speaker cables out but don't know if my system matches the cable criteria.
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It was suggested to send both IC and SC because they are complimentary, being made out of the same wire... when you use both cables at the same time it makes for a much bigger difference than just using one or the other separately, so you would get to experience the full effect of the EC-UPOCC copper cabling.
sleepyguy24 and Nick B, please post here and/or send me pm to let me know if you're interested in the speaker cable, if most are not I will skip it and just send out ICs, if a majority of the group would like speaker cables to be included I can do that too.
FWIW, it will not be a requirement to check out the SCs and write about them here if you're not interested in them, but if I do send them you will have the option of hooking them up if you like the ICs and want to see what using both together will sound like. :)
EDIT: just read sleepyguy's post....
The speaker cables I'd send out would be the 14 gauge EC-UPOCC cables, not the 20 gauge, so they will work with any system.
BobM, you are welcome on the tour, please pm me your address and phone number. :thumb:
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OK, I think I will start the tour with guys who don't want to check out the speaker cable, then I can send off SC to those who would like to check it out later. I will try to arrange it so you'll get the SC at the same time as the ICs if you're also on the IC tour.
So, we have:
StereoNut, no SC (NY)
Bob M, no SC (NY)
sleepyguy24, ? SC :) (NY) -let me know, it's up to you... by the time StereoNut and BoBM get through with the ICs, the SCs will be burned in and ready to send out if you are interested.
mdfoy, yes SC (PA)
Nick B, ? SC (UT) -let me know if you want to check out the SCs
bpape, no SC (MO) -last on the list, keeps for 3-4 weeks
I need a few more days to burn in the ICs, so StereoNut will recieve the IC cables in about one week. :)
I have detailed pricing on the 14 gauge wire and speaker cable now.
The 14 gauge wire will sell for $8.59/ft.
I am going to make it available in bulk as well as finished speaker cable so people can use it for internal speaker wiring, crossovers, hook up wire inside amps, etc.
One caveat is that tinning the ends will require a solder pot, but a high wattage soldering iron with a large tip may work as well.
I will have an introductory price on speaker cable, the deal will be you get a finished set of speaker cables for the price of parts!
So an 8' set of SCs costs $275 without connectors. The connector prices are listed below, I can also do half spades and half bananas of course.
The "FP" and "FT" type connectors come with either Gold or Rhodium plating, prices are listed for both in G/R format.
Add $96/$172 for Furutech FP-200B(G/R) Bananas
Add $290/350 for Furutech FT-212(G/R) Bananas
Add $900 for Furutech CF-202(R) Bananas
Add $140/180 for Furutech FP-201(G/R) Spades
Add $250/280 for Furutech FT-211(G/R) Spades
Add $725 for Furutech CF-201(R) Spades
I think the best bang for your buck is with the FP-201(G) spades, an 8 foot set would cost $415. With half FP spades and half FP bananas the price would be $393.
In the future I do plan on actually charging for cable construction, but for now I would like to get as many cables out there as I can :thumb:
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Sorry Dave for not getting back to you sooner. I've been real busy these past couple of days. Ok I'll give the speaker cables a try if they will be totally burned in by the time I'm up for the IC trial. I don't have my break-in amp any more and don't like breaking in speaker wire on my tube amps due to further cost.
If possible could the speaker wires have banana plugs on the speaker end? I'm fine with either spades or bananas on the amp end.
Thanks again.
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Dave
What length of speaker cables are you sending out on tour and with what connectors? Maybe (?) I would like to try them as well.
Problem for me is I need a minimum 12ft. pair (13ft. would be better) with bananas on each end or bananas on the speaker side and spades on the amp side.
Of course, it my needs don't coincide with everyone else, don't make yourself crazy!
Bill
(Stereonut)
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Just FYI - my state is MO.
Bryan
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I could send out a 12' pair, no problem. :)
Spades at one end and bananas on the other would be fine too.
If you'd like to check them out I can start with BobM.
I have a SC burn in device setup too, just an old digital amp with a few power resistors in parallel instead of speakers. It shouldn't take too long to burn in the SCs since I can run that amp 24/7.
All 3 sets of ICs are currently being burnt in as well.
OK, Thanks Bryan... I got the initials wrong. :duh
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I could send out a 12' pair, no problem. :)
Spades at one end and bananas on the other would be fine too.
If you'd like to check them out I can start with BobM.
I have a SC burn in device setup too, just an old digital amp with a few power resistors in parallel instead of speakers. It shouldn't take too long to burn in the SCs since I can run that amp 24/7.
All 3 sets of ICs are currently being burnt in as well.
OK, Thanks Bryan... I got the initials wrong. :duh
Great! I will call BobM and talk it over to see what we can work out and get back to you.
One other dumb question... will the SC's be "directional"? If I need to use them with bananas on the speaker end and spades on the amp end, will it matter if someone else needs to use these the "opposite" way?
Thanks!
Bill
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I would like to try that speaker cable as well. That configuration works out fine for me too
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Dave - I sent you a PM Please take a look. Thanks! - Bill
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StereoNut, the cables are not directional but more burn-in will probably be required if the direction is changed. I always mark my cables with arrows so you know which direction to install them. So, I would not recommend changing the direction that they are first burned in at.
I could do all bananas, but would prefer to put spades on the amp end if that works for everyone... reason being the FP level spades are made of UPOCC copper and the FP bananas are brass. If I use bananas I will probably use the FT level bananas to keep everything copper, even though Furutech's proprietary brass material actually sounds very good.
Got your pm, thanks!
topround, no problem... I know you are local to rollo, I just messaged him to see when he needs the ICs as I would like him to have them to compare to the JPS cables. You also mentioned having some friends that would like to hear them too, so I was going to have you and rollo on another "tour", since it sounds like you'd both need them for longer than a week or two. So as soon as I hear from rollo we can come up with a plan on having both you guys check out some cables. I would be happy to include speaker cables for you guys too. :)
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Hi Dave
I'm ok with spades on the amp side. Also to accommodate others in the test I'm fine with 12' length speaker cables. I'll just make sure when they are in my test system for your cables I'll handle the excess cable properly. Thanks again.
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OK, Thanks Bryan... I got the initials wrong. :duh
No biggie. Just wanted you to know if you changed your mind and wanted to do it by region/area. Not sure how long they'll be here - just thought I could expose more people to them in the local group that aren't here on AN.
Bryan
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Ok, Interconnects are going out to BobM today!
I am getting the 14g wire for SCs today, so I will have plenty of time to burn in a set before sending them off to StereoNut, who will be next.
I really appreciate everyone's interest and I am looking forward to hearing what you guys think. I am sure I will get some good feedback from this group. :thumb:
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Thanks, Dave. I'm sure everyone is looking forward to this! :thumb:
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Sweet!
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Nice :rofl:
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Dave,
You should have my PM by now. Yes to the SC and I'm hoping to have my McCormack DNA 1.0 Deluxe upgraded to gold status by the time your cables get here :thumb:
Nick
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Got your message Nick, thanks.
BobM should get the ICs on the 24th... :)
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OK, here's my review ... to date.
Received the wires on Thursday and immediately plugged all 3 into the system and let them burn for 2 days (@50 hrs). I think Dave said he gave them a run in already, so a little extra doesn't hurt to let them settle. On Friday night I pulled them all out, put my own reference cables back in (Analysis Plus Solo Crystal Ovals) and gave a listen to several minute long pieces of reference tracks. In all cases I absolutely tried to listen to one of Dave's cables, then back to mine for a direct comparison. Listening was done between my CD player and pre-amp in all cases.
Dave I - These are the babies of his line. Least expensive but very nicely made. From the description on his website they are made from 18 ga silver plated copper as the positive leg with 2 copper ground plane conductor and Furutech FP126 connectors. Very nice looking, as are all of these cables. They sounded nice, but not great. Good tone all around but lacking in finesse and detail and dynamics and space compared to mine. Still a decent cable for someone starting out. Their sins were ones of omission.
Dave II - The difference between these and the I's from the website are a different pair of ground wires (18 ga copper wire) and connectors (Furutech FP 101's) but the same wire on the + leg . Now this is more my cup of tea! There was more space, more detail, more extension, more everything. Boy, a connector and - return wire can surely make a difference. They lacked a wee bit of detail and dynamics compared to my Analysis Plus cables but not by much. I do indeed like these wires. Nice warm and natural tone. Something you can listen to all day.
DD's - These use the Dueland silver, silk and oil wire on the center pin, with the same ground wires and RCA's as the Dave II's. If you are a detail lover these are the cables for you. At low volumes these gave you everything, and I mean everything. Better dynamics and gobs of detail. At high volumes I found them a bit too much of a good thing, lacking that warmth that would keep me listening for long periods of time. I think this could be a break-in issue though, since Dueland everything takes something like 500 hours to sound superb and I put something like 50 hrs on them. So I threw them back into the system for another 2 days to continue burning. A little better on Sunday night with a total of maybe 7-80 hrs on them, but more is probably needed. They have all the dynamic and details of my Analysis plus cables but lack that naturalness that I hear in my all copper cables. Is it a silver vs copper thing? Don't know but I bet down the line once others get a chance to run these in further they will indeed sound better and better.
What I hear already is all the spaciousness you could want, with plenty of bass. It's just the very top end detail that appears to be a bit much, and from past experience that is the last thing to break in and smooth out. This is indeed a Ferrari-type cable. Very fast, and in the right system will be amazing. I did try it between my pre and amp, where I have somewhat different DIY cables using my own proprietary recipe of copper and silver wires on both legs. My thoughts were to replace silver with silver here and see aht happens. It did sound better here, but still a wee bit hard on the top. Perhaps silver from source through to amp is too much in my system and I need that copper burnishing somewhere to avoid fatigue?
I'm handing these off to Campy next week so we will see what his impressions are very soon. Thanks for letting me try these out Dave. I think you've got a product for each price level.
Bob
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Thanks Bob, good write up!
I think you're right about break in on the Duelund cable, the dielectric is pretty thick and talking to rollo, Duelund stuff does need an extended break-in period. I also agree that the little bit of brightness on the high frequencies is the last thing to settle down, that was rollo's experience with the D1s as well. He also said the only thing the D1 lacks compared to the JPS ICs he has is the size of the soundstage, so it looks like I have underestimated the true extent that my cables need to be broken in, but it's been hard to keep cables around for too long since I've just started up and coming up with the capital to keep parts in stock has been difficult. Nevertheless, it looks like I need to put a few hundred hours on them before sending them out for reviews in the future, maybe even 500+ for the DD cable.
The good news is (thanks again to rollo :thumb:) that I am now a Furutech dealer and if I buy larger quantities of connectors at one time the price is lower than what I was paying. That means I'm actually going to lower my introductory prices on the D2 and DD a bit, just because I can and it fits in with my goal of being able to offer the best value for the money in this industry. The D2 will probably drop to $275, so it's half the price of the Analysis Plus cables you have as a reference (please correct me if I'm wrong). The DD will drop to $425 which is very close to the retail price of the parts used to make it.
It's interesting that in my system I perceive the DD as being warmer than the D2, which I consider to be very neutral. They definitely sound very different from one another but I don't really consider one to be better than the other. Just different flavors to suit the system and personal taste... of course the Duelund wire is very expensive so the DD does need to cost more.
Finally, the main difference between the D1 and D2 is the connectors... the ground wires do make a difference but most of it is in the RCA plugs. I would love to find RCA plugs that perform like the FP-101s but cost what the FP-126s do. I'm probably dreaming though... :lol: The FP-101s were as good as another connector I tested out that retails for $400 and is made entirely out of UPOCC copper. I am going to try out the rhodium plated FP-126 and see what that sounds like since the Furutech distributor highly recommended them.
I'm going to get the speaker cables burning in starting today and give them ~10 days before I send them off to Campy, so it will be 2 weeks until he gets them. You are welcome to keep the ICs until then if you would like, I would actually appreciate it since it would give them a chance to get more burn-in time. :)
Thanks again Bob for your great review.
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Just some info on the wires:
Signal wires:
22 gauge Neotech EC-UPOCC copper wire with cotton blend jacket, ~166 individually insulated 44g wires.
Duelund 1.0 hook up wire, 5N silver, silk and oil insulation, 2.5mm x .23mm conductor ~19 gauge
Ground wires:
18 gauge mil-spec silver plated copper with teflon wire, stranded
18 gauge Neotech UPOCC copper with teflon, stranded(D2) and solid(DD).
The 14 gauge speaker cable has ~1060 strands of enameled UPOCC copper in it... :)
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Yes Sir. Those dem der Duelunds to take serious time to settle. Silver sonically compared to copper is IMO misunderstood. Silver is not bright compared to copper. Actually sweet on top when done correctly. Copper can be construed as having more weight however it is coloration not weight. Perceived as weight or body but just not. Only a direct comparison will show the difference. Good job Bob.
Pure silver over the cheap stuff used by other manufactures is the culprit in sonics. The Duelund wire with its engineered dielectric is made to cure the Ils of lean or bright. They use very pure silver. To take it up a notch a pure silver RCA would be perfect however not inexpensive. I wonder who makes the RCAs for Duelund that are used with their ICs ?
Duelund is not your basic silver house sound. time and lots of it should prove that out.
charles
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FYI - I picked up the I/C's from BobM last night and started listening today. I haven't spent enough time to make comments yet, but I will soon.
Sleepguy24, I think you're "up" next.
T.B.C.
SN
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Sounds good Campy!
The speaker cables are burning in as we speak, I will send them out to you so you will have them by the end of next week. I want to get 200 hours on them first.
edit: please keep the ICs until you get the SCs so you can send them on in one box, plus you will get to try both in your system at one time. :)
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I'm goign to be out of town from the 9th to the 23rd so whoever has them last before me, please hang on to them so they're not sitting on my porch for 2 weeks.
Thx
Bryan
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Thanks for the update.
To SN. I agree with Dave enjoy his ICs and wait for the SCs so you can listen to it all together. I'm sure from what Rollo said everything will need some additional burn-in time. That and then you will have review/enjoyment time too. Trust me I want to listen to Dave's cables in my system but my boss dumped a whole lot of stuff on me to do and I've been getting home real late and not been able to get as much listening time in with my current system. Hopefully by the time SN is done with his listening tests I'll be through this pile of crap I've got to deal with at work.
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Dave: Please let me know when the SC's ship out, so I have an ETA on them.
SG24: I will keep you "posted" on when my evaluation is done here and then make arrangements to get all of Dave's cables to you here locally.
Thanks all! :thumb:
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Just a quick update....
UPS is scheduled to deliver my connectors on Monday so I will ship the speaker cables out to StereoNut on Tuesday. The speaker cable will have Furutech's new FT-211 spades and FT-212 banana connectors.
http://www.partsconnexion.com/prod_pdf/ftech_75946.pdf (http://www.partsconnexion.com/prod_pdf/ftech_75946.pdf)
http://www.partsconnexion.com/prod_pdf/ftech_75949.pdf (http://www.partsconnexion.com/prod_pdf/ftech_75949.pdf)
The package also has my RCA connectors so I will get a set of D2 and DD ICs as well as a set of 11 guage, 4' speaker cables out to rollo on Tuesday as well. topround, you will get these IC cables after Charles has had a chance to break them in and check them out, I can also get you the 12' speaker cables that are going out on tour as well.
Sorry for the delay, Furutech ran out of stock on some parts and it took some additional time for them to resupply me.
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:dj: :yay2: Looking forward to checking them out. Will put 250 hours on them and 500 on Duelund oh my !!
charles
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Dave we were talking about grounding requirements of Incs and the like. I found that conversation intriguing. Could you without giving up your trade secrets on how important grounding is starting at the incoming AC and passing through the components.
I believe you hit the proverbial nail on the head. manageing the ground potentials and designing accordingly makes a lot of sense.
taking up a notch could the ICs be specifically designed for a particular system ?
charles
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Dave we were talking about grounding requirements of Incs and the like. I found that conversation intriguing. Could you without giving up your trade secrets on how important grounding is starting at the incoming AC and passing through the components.
I believe you hit the proverbial nail on the head. manageing the ground potentials and designing accordingly makes a lot of sense.
taking up a notch could the ICs be specifically designed for a particular system ?
charles
Hi Charles, they are hardly trade secrets, just observations (that most cable designers seem to miss!). The equipment that we connect together with ICs serves to transfer signal from one component to another, that is it's primary purpose. But it also ties the grounds together. This doesn't fully apply to double insulated components that don't require a ground connection, but these components can still have leakage current through the neutral line, which is connected to ground at the service entrance. In most systems there is a ground connection, and in theory signal ground and true ground are isolated from one another and some component designers try to isolate a signal ground with hybrid grounding techniques. In practice there usually is no difference and the signal ground plane in a component's PCB is directly connected to the house's grounding system. If you check out this doc from Rane on sound system connection, the newer, recommended way to wire an IC is to tie pin 1 to chassis ground, not signal ground (if indeed there is any decoupling using hybrid grounding in the component).
http://www.rane.com/note110.html (http://www.rane.com/note110.html)
What that means in simple terms is that your power cord's ground wire makes the same connection as the ground wires in your ICs, and due to parasitic capacitance causing leakage currents and slight differences in potential between different receptacles you get current flow through through the ground wires, eventually returning to neutral.
In this paper by Bill Whitlock on audio system grounding and interface, the issue of parasitic capacitance and 2 prong plugs are discussed starting on page 39, and on page 81 and on, the "pin 1 problem" and some associated diagrams are shown that detail current flow through the component's grounding system as a result of voltage differences.
http://centralindianaaes.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf (http://centralindianaaes.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf)
What it points out is that the ground connection on ICs is not just a return, there are are currents flowing through our ground wires that have nothing to do with the music signal. The noise created by these currents is a function of the resistance between components. The resistance between components depends on the gauge of the wire used in both the IC's and PC's ground wire. This also means the PC's ground wire serves as a return for the signal transferred by the ICs as well as the ICs ground. This is why I use 18 gauge ground wires in my ICs, 4 of them together make a 12 gauge ground connection between components which reduces the noise created by stray current flow through these wires. The larger gauge ground wire makes for a lower noise floor that may or may not be noticeable depending on your particular system.
I hope that made at least a little bit of sense, I'm no EE... :lol:
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... and if a particular component (notoriously tubed preamps) in your system inverts polarity, then the ground wire becomes the + leg of the signal.
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... and if a particular component (notoriously tubed preamps) in your system inverts polarity, then the ground wire becomes the + leg of the signal.
Are you sure about that? While changing pos and neg conductors is one way to invert a signal, it's not the only way. When the inversion is done through electronic stages the positive lead still carries the signal, just inverted. In that case, the ground wire still functions as the "ground", not as the positive, signal carrying leg.
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... and if a particular component (notoriously tubed preamps) in your system inverts polarity, then the ground wire becomes the + leg of the signal.
Are you sure about that? While changing pos and neg conductors is one way to invert a signal, it's not the only way. When the inversion is done through electronic stages the positive lead still carries the signal, just inverted. In that case, the ground wire still functions as the "ground", not as the positive, signal carrying leg.
That's correct. You can invert phase by changing + and - in a balanced system but not in most single ended systems as ground is well... connected directly to ground. In my system if you swap signal and ground it will simply dump the signal to ground and you get no signal at all.
With balanced ICs you have the same wire for + and - legs, and ground is separate from -... here's a pic of a prototype D1 XLR cable:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/XLR%20Cable/XLRCable009_zps4fb18730.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/XLR%20Cable/XLRCable009_zps4fb18730.jpg.html)
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Update:
Stereonut will have the speakers cables delivered on Friday via USPS priority mail so the tour can continue. Sorry for the delay.
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Some pics of the cables I sent out today... 8)
14 Gauge Speaker Cables
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06574_zpsaf497dff.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06574_zpsaf497dff.jpg.html)
Furutech FT Series Spades and Bananas on 14 Gauge Speaker Cables
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06572_zpsed32b386.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06572_zpsed32b386.jpg.html)
11 Gauge Speaker Cables
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06581_zpscaf4493a.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06581_zpscaf4493a.jpg.html)
11 Gauge Speaker Cables, There are flexible leadout wires going into the spades that can be bent to suit.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06580_zps3cef095d.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06580_zps3cef095d.jpg.html)
D2 IC Cable
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06589_zpsed10db74.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06589_zpsed10db74.jpg.html)
Furutech FP-101 RCA Plugs
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06593_zpsf9690ba9.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06593_zpsf9690ba9.jpg.html)
DD IC Cable
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06597_zps095d3fc8.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06597_zps095d3fc8.jpg.html)
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Those are some sharp looking cables
Congratulations :thumb:
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Update:
Stereonut will have the speakers cables delivered on Friday via USPS priority mail so the tour can continue. Sorry for the delay.
Woo-Hoo!!!!!! :thumb:
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I am testing out Neotech's new OCC silver/gold alloy wire. It is 99% silver and 1% gold made with the OCC process and insulated with PE.
The cable uses 4 braided strands of 28 gauge wire, which is braided with the two 18 gauge UPOCC copper ground wires.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06607_zpsc0055ad2.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06607_zpsc0055ad2.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06611_zps869ea0e8.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06611_zps869ea0e8.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06612_zpsa7b6504e.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06612_zpsa7b6504e.jpg.html)
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I'm still breaking the ICs in. So far the Duelund is a bit dull with the same break in characteristic of their CAST caps. The caps took 750 hours to stop changing.
The other cable with the better Furutech connector out of the box bettered the first one with lessor connector. More open with a larger sound stage. Bass is off the charts with slam and depth.
The top end as well is not hi fi sounding . They need more time. So I will refrain from commenting until then. What I will say is demo Dave's ICs.
charles
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Sounds good Charles, thanks for the update. I thought you'd like the D2 since the D1 worked for you... it is very similar to the D1, just a better version for double the price. :)
I'm really liking the new Neotech silver/gold alloy, I have a similar UPOCC silver cable and the alloy wire is even better. It has all the positive qualities of ultra pure silver but with more warmth, tone and texture. It's more similar to the D2 than the DD, like a better version of the D2. Which is good because that wire is very expensive, priced in Duelund territory...
The speaker cables take some time before they are even listenable... break in is pretty dramatic on them but once they've settled they are amazing.
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I have had Dave's I/C's in the house for quite a long while now and have listened to them against mine and a few other loaner cables when they first got here. I didn't post my impressions because Dave asked me to listen again when his speaker cables arrived and then post.
Well, the past few weeks around here have been crazy. So crazy that I haven't listened to the SC's yet. :duh I hate to bore everyone with the details (and I'm not looking for a "pity party") but it's been one thing after another with my family. My Mom started things off with an emergency room visit, a bad case of the shingles and being quarantined for two weeks. :roll: Next up was my Step-Mom-In-Law. She was good for two emergency room visits and surgery on a broken arm. :( My son chipped in with totaling my wife's car (luckily he didn't get killed) an emergency room visit and a bunch of Dr. appointments as a follow-up to the accident. :shock:
I promised Dave that I would get my listening in on the speaker cables and get a review written by the end of this week.
Hopefully, the rest of the home front will remain quiet and I will follow through as planned. [-o<
Thanks for listening to my misadventures.
SN
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Hi SN
That is a lot of bad news in a short time. Best wishes so things are back to normal very soon
Nick
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I hope things calm down for you and everyone recovers quickly!
No worries about the slight delay.
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Thanks, Nick & Dave! :thumb:
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OK... I have finally completed my listening with Dave's cables. (As I said in a prior post, sorry for the unforeseen delay on this review.)
First off, since I'm relatively new to RCA cables (coming from 25+ years of Naim & DIN connectors) the cables I have throughout my current system (see what's listed in my tagline below) are really inexpensive Signal Cable I/C's. Better than "throw in" cables that you'd find in a mid-fi component box, but hardly "state of the art" by any means.
I tried all of Dave's I/C's between my DAC and Pre-amp because I thought that my system would reveal more of their character there. Overall looks and build quality on everything is really, really nice. All of Dave's cables "bested" my Signal Cable I/C's easily, which I expected.
After some experimenting with several sets of other (read: not Dave's) loaner I/C's that I have in the house, I settled on two sets of Harmonic Technology I/C's that a buddy and fellow Audio Syndrome member gave me to try. To date, these seemed to be the best combination of I/C's in my system. I put a pair of H.T. Pro Silway 2's between my amp and pre and a pair of H.T. Magic Link 1's between my pre and DAC. This became my new "baseline" (reference) sound.
To reiterate, my comparisons were now done by swapping out the H.T. Magic Link 1's with each of Dave's I/C's between my DAC and Pre-amp.
D1 - The "starter cable" of the line. Nice cables. Pretty well balanced, but soundstage was somewhat tight and the front to back depth was a bit shallow. Clean and clear sound with good detail.
D2 - The next step up the line. It was easy to hear that these were better than the D1's. Overall, the D2's had a bigger sound, yet weren't "shouty". Well balanced like the D1's, but more dynamic. Soundstage & depth were also better here.
DD's - The top of the line. Great detail with lots of air and separation between instruments, voices etc. The DD's had a bigger bottom end, yet allowed little subtleties to come through. In most regards these were better than the D2's, but the top end seemed to be a bit forward in my system. One of two ways to think here on this... either extended listening time would break them in further to help this or they would become fatiguing after a while. Tough to say.
I think the Harmonic Technology Magic Link 1 cables (between Pre and DAC) are better in my system because they give me everything the D2's give me, plus a fuller, richer sound. But, to be absolutely fair to Dave and his cables, the H.T.'s are a more expensive set of cables by a good amount of $$$.
If I had to pick one of the three sets of Dave's cables, I think the D2's are the best value and most "comfortable" sound overall. I vote Dave's D2's as one of the best "bang for the buck" I/C's I've heard. A must audition for anyone shopping for I/C's.
Lastly, Dave's speaker cables.
Extremely nice looking cables. I absolutely LOVE the "twist-lock" bananas on the one end. I only could compare these to my QED Silver Spiral's because a certain buddy of mine (who will go un-named) has yet to get me a pair of his speaker cables to audition!
Dave's speaker cables are unbelievably clean, clear and detailed. The air and space around everything is tremendous! Their presentation can be a little bit "forward" (especially on vocals) but talk about "focus", they've got it. On more involved recordings, with larger groups and instrumentation, they opened everything up in a big way. Where I especially felt they were too far "over the top" was on minimalist, close-miked recordings. (e.g.: Mark Knopfler's "Ragpicker's Dream".)
Compared to my QED Silver Spirals, Dave's SC's were too detailed and didn't give as much weight and layering to the music. Yes, Dave's SC's give you a lot of space in between everything, but I don't feel there's enough music in between those spaces. If your system sounds a bit dull or congested, maybe these would be worth a try. For now, I'm keeping my QED's.
I hope this review helps everybody get an idea of what Dave's cables are all about. Of course, YMMV. I always say it and will say it again... the one single word that sums up this hobby is insanity, no I mean synergy! :rofl:
Just because Dave's stuff isn't better to me and my ears than some of the other cables I own or have tried in my system, doesn't make them a bad product. Far from it. I think Dave can consider his mission accomplished: great products and great value!
Thanks for the opportunity to audition your stuff, Dave!
SN
P.S. to Sleepyguy24: PM me so we can make arrangements to get these cables to you next.
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Thanks SN for that review. I looked up the Harmonic Tech Magic Link Two's...$820 A bit..actually..way too much $$$ for my taste. I'm looking forward to getting Dave's cables. Anyone know where I am in the queue I am ?
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SN stated that he was using the Harmonic Technologies Truth Link 1 for his comparisons. The Truth Link 1's have been around for a while and cost approximately $300 new.
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NickB & Maxima95
I just want to clarify things so everyone knows what the comparisons were. The H.T. cables are loaners from a friend. They are NOT the latest models from Harmonic Technology. Honestly, I'm not sure they are even available from H.T. anymore. AFAIK, the Magic Link 1's are the newer and better of the two H.T. cables used here.
> Note to "Lissnr" - Please confirm I have the H.T. models listed correctly here. <
I put a pair of H.T. Pro Silway 2's between my amp and pre and a pair of H.T. Magic Link 1's between my pre and DAC. This became my new "baseline" (reference) sound.
My comparisons were now done by swapping out the H.T. Magic Link 1's with each of Dave's I/C's between my DAC and Pre-amp. The H.T. Pro Silway 2's between my amp and pre stayed in place.
I hope this helps.
SN
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Good review SN.
The ML IC cables are also UPOCC copper using Furutech plugs with a rhodium plating.
It sounds like SN's personal preference is quite a bit different than mine.... the "fuller richer sound" of the ML ICs and "weight" of the QED SCs are not what I'm going for. "Clean, clear and detailed" is what I'm after, and I'm glad you noticed that in my cables. :thumb:
I am happy when I can hear into the music as much as possible, I want my system to sound forward and detailed without being harsh, edgy or fatiguing. I'm looking for as accurate and neutral as possible, I don't want added warmth, body, extra harmonics or anything else. I just want to hear what's (actually) there.
So the ML IC cables seem to have the opposite goal in mind: "Harmonic Technology's Truth-Link interconnect cable has the ability to smooth out any systems that has a tendency towards brightness."
It is possible the high capacitance is responsible for the stated goal (60 pF/ft is more than double the capacitance of my cables). But this is the opposite design philosophy that I have. There's nothing wrong with that, as system synergy and personal preference are the most important thing. It sounds like my cables weren't a good fit with either synergy or personal preference in this case, which is also ok.
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Nice review for what you listened too. I'm learning that each cable takes some serious time to settle. Especially the DD.
IMO unless fully broken a love and hate relationship right now. The midrange of the DD is loosing its frowardness as the rest of the frequency range is starting to come through. The top a tad rolled off now similar to the Duelund cap break in sound. 800 F'n hours.
Last night playing LPs only the DD was in between the QOL and Arions. Using Crystal Tone arm cable and Tara Decade for Preamp to QOL. CDP using D2 to preamp.
Me thinks the DD is something to write home about even in its state. Timbre and harmonics are berry berry good. I'm hearing info not heard before in that manner, a good thing. Tonality is spotty as again still changing.
I HATE BREAK IN. Think about it. My gear is being wasted. All cable manufacturers should fully break in the cable before sending out.
A necessary evil ?? I do not think so. By the time one breaks them in the 30 day period is almost gone leaving for some not enough time to truly evaluate. My pet peeve.
I guess for me after breaking in several components, cables and tubes for the Capitol Audiofest , I need a break in break.
charles
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Thanks for the clarification on the HT cables
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Thanks SN for that review. I looked up the Harmonic Tech Magic Link Two's...$820 A bit..actually..way too much $$$ for my taste. I'm looking forward to getting Dave's cables. Anyone know where I am in the queue I am ?
Here is the tour list from a few pages back...
StereoNut (NY)
Bob M (NY)
sleepyguy24 (NY)
mdfoy (PA)
Nick B (UT)
bpape (MO) -last on the list, keeps for 3-4 weeks
So it looks like sleepyguy is next up, please send SN and me a pm letting us know you are ready. :)
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Dave & Charles:
Thanks for the kind words.
NickB:
You're welcome! BTW - I've traded PM's with Sleepyguy24 already. We are working on getting the cables to him one night this week once he sees what his schedule looks like.
Everyone:
I just want to say that regardless of system synergy and my own personal taste, Dave's products are a "must" audition. The only way to know if they "fit" your system is to TRY them!
Secondly, in response to some of Dave's comments back to me... I think that my electronics have a lot to do with my cable preferences. Even though my Dodd battery powered VGP Pre-amp (4) and my N.Y.A.L. Moscode 600 (7) have eleven (11) tubes between them, they do NOT have a fat, overly "tubey" sound. These two components give my system a lot more detail and resolution than I ever thought tube equipment could; especially the Dodd. Yes, I know this is coming from a former SS guy who never had any experience with tubes before... but to quote Genesis "I know what I like" :D
Again, it's all comes down to personal preference. That's why cable and equipment tours are so helpful to everyone that takes advantage of them.
Kudos again to Dave for making this tour possible. :thumb:
SN
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[Everyone:
I just want to say that regardless of system synergy and my own personal taste, Dave's products are a "must" audition. The only way to know if they "fit" your system is to TRY them!
Agreed. Three different flavors and 3 different price points. Definitely something in there for everyone to like, whatever your taste's. Check them out.
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Stereonut
Im sure you need more than one set of interconnect for your rig.
Were all your Harmonic Techs switched out for Dave's when auditioning?
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Does Dave have a 30 year payment plan? Whats my rate? Can I get a 5/1 Arm please or maybe variable with a low upfront cost? :rofl:
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Stereonut
Im sure you need more than one set of interconnect for your rig.
Were all your Harmonic Techs switched out for Dave's when auditioning?
You gotta read the post(s) again, Emil. For Dave's I/C cables, I left the one pair of H.T. cables in place between my amp and pre-amp and just swapped Dave's I/C's in/out between my Pre-amp and DAC.
For his speaker cables, I left the H.T. interconnects in both places (Amp <> Pre and Pre <> DAC) and only swapped my QED speaker cables out for his.
I hope this helps!
Bill
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Does Dave have a 30 year payment plan? Whats my rate? Can I get a 5/1 Arm please or maybe variable with a low upfront cost? :rofl:
Mike
You'll need to PM Dave on pricing. His cables are NOT Kilo-buck products!
SN
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you gotta read the post(s) again, Emil
No, you cant make me.
That begs the question of whether all the interconnects should be of the same brand when auditioning? Are we hearing the interaction between the two different ICs?
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Does Dave have a 30 year payment plan? Whats my rate? Can I get a 5/1 Arm please or maybe variable with a low upfront cost? :rofl:
Mike
You'll need to PM Dave on pricing. His cables are NOT Kilo-buck products!
SN
True!
Every cable is under $500 with the possible exception of speaker cables depending on length and connectors. And the speaker cables are being sold for the retail price of parts used to make them so you couldn't make them yourself for any less.
@Charles, I did ask if you wanted me to break them in before I sent them to you. ;) I have a little system set up with a tripath amp and power resistors instead of speakers so I can break them in if needed. Most folks won't want to wait an additional 2 weeks before they ship though...
@Emil, I think SN did a good job reporting the way the cables sound. I also did not supply 2 sets of each cable, only one. Plus, the D2 and DD are quite different so I'm not sure using both at the same time would give you a better feel for them... although I do like the combination of using one set of D2 and one set of DD in my system at the same time quite a bit.
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you gotta read the post(s) again, Emil
No, you cant make me. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: (SN)
That begs the question of whether all the interconnects should be of the same brand when auditioning? Are we hearing the interaction between the two different ICs?
Interesting point, but I thought that keeping the other I/C constant was a better idea. Now in hind-sight, I should've tried both ways. Too late now, Sleepyguy24 just left with all of Dave's I/C's and the speaker cables.
@Emil, I think SN did a good job reporting the way the cables sound. I also did not supply 2 sets of each cable, only one. Plus, the D2 and DD are quite different so I'm not sure using both at the same time would give you a better feel for them... although I do like the combination of using one set of D2 and one set of DD in my system at the same time quite a bit.
Thanks, Dave! :thumb:
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FYI
Just in case you didn't see it in my last post to Emil. Sleepyguy24 picked up all of Dave's I/C's and the speaker cables last night. :D
It was great to meet you Dean. It's always fun to "attach a face to a name" from the forums. I hope you enjoyed the quick listen to my system last night.
Please think about joining the Audio Syndrome. You will enjoy the camaraderie of like-minded crazies! :rofl:
SN
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Hi SN. Great meeting you too even if it was later in the evening. I'm in for the Audio Syndrome. I'll send a separate PM regarding joining. I hope to make a couple of the meetings.
I'm testing enjoying the Dave's ICs in my headphone set-up that I have at work. I'll detail out the system set-up in my review. I'm rotating the D1s and D2s right now. The DDs I'm going to use at home.
Regarding the speaker cables I just couldn't resist hooking them up last night. Dave's speaker cables and jumpers with my budget ICs still in place I heard pleasant differences.
I'm testing them throughout the week and I'm hoping to be done by early next week.
Some questions now for my further testing and review.
I'm planning on using the DD ICs from my phono preamp to preamp. Is this ok or are they meant to be used further down the signal chain or with a digital source?
The jumpers look to have a rhodium end and the other a gold end. Is the Rhodium to be used on the lows while the gold end is to be used on the mids and highs if you have bi-wireable speakers?
Thanks and more to come.
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Hi sleepyguy,
Use the cables anywhere and see how you like them, no hard and fast rules for using them source>pre or pre>amp. You should try the DDs in your headphone setup too, they are quite different from the D2s and one or the other will probably work best depending on equipment and personal preference.
The jumpers are meant to be used with the gold plated ends on the low end posts and the rhodium plated ends on the high end posts.
I can also make an 11 gauge bi-wired pair of speaker cables using a separated double run of 14 gauge cable... basically 2 sets of 14g cables with one set of connectors tying the two cables together at the amp end.
Have fun! :)
Thinking about SN's comments about speaker cables, I would say they simply don't add much in terms of "extras"... there's no extra body, warmth or harmonics compared to most speaker cables, but this kind of presentation is full of added distortion. Same as what rollo said about copper cables earlier in the thread.
When you get rid of the extras, you are left with more detail, focus, clarity and air in between instruments' images.
The combination of using UPOCC copper and over 1000 individually insulated 44 gauge conductors is what makes this possible, AFAIK there is nothing like it out there. UPOCC silver would be even better judging from my experiments with IC cables, but then you'd have a cable that costs more like $5000 instead of $500.
For my preferences, this kind of presentation is HUGE jump above most other speaker cables, but of course YMMV, etc....
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So... Neotech's brand new OCC silver/gold alloy wire is ridiculously good. It's an easily audible upgrade over the D2 and about the same difference in performance as the D2 is over the D1. It's also significantly better than the same cable made with Neotech's UPOCC silver wire!
I'm breaking in a DD cable made with Duelund 2.0 silver/silk/oil wire... when that's further along I will compare the Neotech silver/gold cable to the Duelund silver cable.
This will be added to the catalog as the D3. 8) Price is the same as the Duelund cable, $425 for 1 meter, $325 for .5 meters.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06612_zpsa7b6504e.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06612_zpsa7b6504e.jpg.html)
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Thanks, Dave. I appreciate your efforts and all the options we will have.
Nick :thumb:
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Hi sleepyguy, it's been a while... do you have any news? :-P
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Hi everyone
My apologies to Dave for not getting this review out earlier. Too much stuff going on and my first draft got accidentally deleted.
Primarily I use and have a lot of budget gear and cabling so these comparisons may seem unfair but that is what I have experience with.
First I'd like to cover the physical aspects of the speakers cables, jumpers and and ICs.
Regarding the jumpers provided I liked the idea of Rhodium and copper/brass combo on opposite ends. A novice like myself was at first confused which end was to go where.
Build quality wise these jumpers were the most flexible I've ever used. My experience previously was with Zu Wax, Black Cat Morpheus, Belden BJC 10 White and TWL jumpers.
The Dave's speaker jumpers were very easy to manipulate they were actually quite flexible. I actually was able to twirl them around all sorts of ways from one post to the other. I hope the attached picture can show the silliness I was doing.
The speaker cables themselves were extremely easy to handle and manipulate into tight spaces. The rings around the wires were really helpful in flattening out the cables. It took some getting used to but after I got the hang of it I got speaker cables flattened out. I've handled Tice speaker wire and Anti-Cables speaker wire before and these felt the easiest to put into tight spaces.
I like the use of the Furutech locking bananas and spades. They are quality that I have not seen previously. The locking bananas are so easy to lock and unlock. My experience with locking bananas are with the ones from GLS Audio and Blue Jeans Cables. These locking bananas are SO easy to lock and unlock. At times I've had issues with the GLS Audio locking bananas and when I thought they were locked they weren't.
I also really liked the Furutech locking ICs on the D2s. I've used locking ICs from Outlaw Audio and IXOS and these were the easiest to lock and un-lock as well. Very secure.
I was initially concerned with the size of these barrels with my equipment. Even with older equipment like an Accuphase C200 with its old jacks there was always enough space between them. I had the DD1s and DD2s together and there were no problems concerning space. Also these cables weren't heavy at all and they didn't weigh down the IC inputs or outputs that I've seen before with the Outlaw Audio PCA cables or IXOS cables.
A true test that I wasn't able to do was to put Dave's ICs on the 7.1 inputs of my Oppo BDP-83SE or Outlaw Audio 990. IMO this gear has inputs that are just too close together.
The D1 and D2s were easy to handle but with the DDs I took extra caution to not try to put them in a tight spaces between my preamp and amp.
Ok enough about the physical aspects of the cables onto the SQ of the cables in my systems.
I had the D1 D2s and later the DD (Dueland)s in my headphone system first that consists of a Bellari HA540 headphone amp with a NOS GE 1960 Longplate 12AX7 being fed music by a HIFI DIY USB Sabre DAC. My headphones are 600 Ohm BeyerDyanmic 770 headphones.
In my headphone set-up the D1s were up first and they sounded really good compared to the Monster 400I ICs I had in place before. There was an improvement in dynamics and detail and bass was fine. Later came the D2s and man oh man everything got better. Even more dynamics, detail and body as well as an improvement in bass.
The DDs were up last and they were a slight improvement in the mids vs the D2s. At the time I was listening to a lot of various Rock, all sorts of electronic music and a little bit of Jazz. I think with the genres of music I was listening to in my headphone system I may have hit the wall with sonic performance. I didn't hear too much of a difference with the DDs in place vs the D2s. Of the whole bunch I really liked the D2s in my headphone system.
Onto my basement office sound system.
Before I had Dave's ICs connected to my system I just had the speakers wires and jumpers in place. Even with my stock budget cabling (Various ICs from Monster Cable and Canare) I got improvement in SQ. I got a very good improvement with the bass in my system. Nothing booming but nice tighter bass. On certain tracks I had to move the Sony away from the KEFs because the player was skipping. This never happened before. I was very happy.
I had the DDs going from my Hagerman Bugle2 Phono preamp straight to my preamp (Vincent SA-93) and I had the D1s going from my Sony SCD-CE595 to my preamp and then the D2s from my Vincent SA-93 to a Jolida JD-502P amp. The speaker wires and jumpers in this test were connected to a pair of KEF Q300s.
I set-up the ICs this way because I didn't want to have the DDs put in such a tight spot between my preamp and amp or CDP to preamp. It was easier to situate the DDs from the Bugle2 Phono to my preamp. Very minimal bending. I put the D2s from preamp to amp because it is my preference to have the best cable last in the signal chain. Normally I want the same kind of cable all around but in this case I couldn't do that.
Now with all the cabling in place I played some tunes. Right off the bat I still found the improved bass BUT I got more details in the upper mids and highs but yet no glare or brightness. I was amazed here as well. Other times when I've used Zu Wax speaker cables, early Black Cat Morpheus speaker cables,Blue Jeans Cables speaker wire and my other ICs I've gotten more detail in the music but paid the price with irritating treble and highs. I didn't get any of this with Dave's cabling in place.
Also I had a slight improvement in imaging and the music was more forward but it was just right. A lot of songs if I were to close my eyes I could picture the bands singing in front of me. That has only happened a few times with the other systems I've had.
I was having my cake and eating it too for a change.
I believe Dave said with his cables they aren't meant to add anything to the sound but in my case they showed me what I was missing with my system.
Speaker cabling aside my absolute favorite of the IC bunch is the Dave 2 cables. If I didn't hear the D2 ICs and only heard the D1 ICs I could be happy but after hearing the D2s there is no way I'm going back to the D1s. The DDs were fine but again in either of my systems there was only a slight improvement or difference between the D2s.
When I get the money together my goal will be to have Dave2 ICs in all parts of the signal chain along with his speaker cables.
I want to say Thanks to you all hear at Audionervosa & especially Dave for letting me participate in this test/audition. I don't normally spend funds on cabling as high end as this and probably wouldn't have been able to enjoy them if it wasn't for this test. These cables to me are welcome breath of fresh air to the cable shops I see on Audiogon or eBay. For the money I really feel I'm getting quality stuff and my money's worth.
If you have any questions on my test or results just let me know and I'll get back to you ASAP.
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Thanks for the great write-up sleepyguy. :thumb:
I'm glad they worked for you and I think you did a good job describing the changes they made in your system. The cables deliver a lot of detail and are on the "forward" side, but without adding harshness or glare. :)
On the jumpers, the spades are all made of UPOCC copper, one end is gold plated, the other is rhodium plated. Rhodium sounds more bright/forward while gold is more smooth and laid back, going half and half splits the difference... there isn't a huge difference on speaker cable connectors, but there is on RCA plugs. Rhodium makes my D2/DD IC cables too bright but it works well on the D1 and I might offer that as an option for the D1 IC cable.
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Hi Dean,
I really enjoyed your write up. Cables should be here Monday. Rich's Buffalo arrived and I played some tunes tonight, so I'll be listening with a very good dac with Dave's cables.
Nick
PS to Dave...can't wait til Monday...will be a treat for me!
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I'm liking the combo of DD and D2 in my system. Color me smitten. My reference speaker cable TWL has a wonderfull synergy with Dave's ICs. Amazing actually. Tonality, timbre and harmonic structure are spot on. Dave's speaker cables need more time before I can offer a valid opinion. So far in my set up the TWL are more open, larger sound stage with deeper bass, both very good actually. Time will tell.
That was the combo we used for our AudioSyndrome meeting. System was off the charts as our members were impressed. Unfortunately I do not have jumpers as the Snells are a bi-wired affair. Using Siltech G4 at the moment. Have some Kimber Select silver babies on hand to check out as well.
As you all know I rep TWL and do not want a pissing match. I will call a good product a good product regardless of political correctness every time. Better to be honest than toe the line.
I like both speaker cables with the overall edge in my set up to TWL as of this writing. Dynamics to write home about. May the Snell be with you.
The DD IMO is a special IC. it takes mucho time to settle. 400 plus hours. so boys give that sucker the time and reap sonic bliss. Does it fit all ?? Nothing does. The midrange and treble is just so natural and real sounding. Very addictive boys.
The D2 may be the one size fits all cable. Appears very neutral in every location so far.
fun fun fun until Daddy takes the T-Bird away, oh my !!!
charles
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The cables arrived today. Everything looks fine...no damage at all to the packaging. Beautiful workmanship. Even though I am swamped with Obamacare stuff (I sell health insurance) I tried to hook up the DD's, but they are 6 inches too short. I'll have to move and reconfigure. Also, it appears the fit on the DD's is a bit loose on Rich's Buffalo that he graciously sent me to audition. I think the Buff has Switchcraft? RCA's and the fit is a bit loose. Anyway, I'll try to get some of it going tonight. Rich's Buff sounds great. Best dac I've ever had. More to follow.........
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Hi Nick,
Yes, the fit on the RCAs is loose but they are locking... rotate the barrel of the connector towards the tip to lock them, it doesn't require much force, just a very small amount of torque will lock them in place. If they don't loosen easily, hold the rear part of the RCA while unscrewing the barrel.
Hi rollo,
Thanks for the update, glad you like the D2 and DD IC cables. The speaker cables are unique... they really don't add ANY additional body or warmth compared to most copper speaker cables. They are VERY clean, detailed and forward but don't add harshness or glare like the ICs. UPOCC copper is very different and the litz type construction of the speaker cables is also unique... I think some folks will love them, others will think they aren't warm, bassy, etc... For my personal preferences, I have not heard a speaker cable that even comes close.
Also, I really like the D2/DD combo in my system too :)
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A bit off topic, but... I was looking for an app for an spl meter on my iPhone. Thought it might be useful in auditioning the cables. There are a bunch available. Anyone used an spl app and is one better than the other
Thanks
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Dave, Just a very preliminary note to you. I started with the DD and it is a wonderful cable. :thumb: I also have the good fortune of auditioning Rich's Buffalo dac at the same time. This allows me to really appreciate the resolution capabilities of the DD. I will work my way down to the D2 and D1. Then add the speaker cable. I likely have to go out of town this Friday for a few days, so I'll do as much as possible.
Nick
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Hi Nick,
Thanks for checking them out and take your time. :)
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Well, I've heard enough to write a review. You only need to stare at a pretty girl for so long to realize the obvious...that she is indeed pretty. And Dave's cables are also indeed very pretty.
My system consists of:
DNA Deluxe 1.0 ss amp recently upgraded to gold level by Steve McCormack.
SP Tech Timepiece 2.1 speakers upgraded to 3.0 level by Bob Smith
Rich's DIY Buffalo 32 dac which he kindly lent me and which I will be buying
Squeezebox 2 with modded analog out and with dedicated ps by Anthony Padilla of Maui Mods
Grover Huffman IC's (about 6 years old and who knows what version they might be)
Gregg Straley speaker cables
My turntable is not up and running yet, so this was thru the Buffalo dac only. The artists I mainly used were Nana Mouskouri, Daniel O'Donnell, Erich Kunzel, Enya, Mannheim Steamroller, Kenny G, Freddy Quinn, Nat King Cole, Charlotte Church, Karen Carpenter and various ballroom dance recordings (my wife and I love to dance)
Like a kid in a candy store, I just couldn't wait. So I popped in what I thought would be Dave's best IC's, the DD's. They did not disappoint. The soundstage improved in width and depth. There was a more realistic presentation of singers and instruments. The resolving capability was outstanding and some recordings had a wonderfully holographic sound. In a word, this IC was magic. It also was quieter...by far. I have been continually complaining about digital nastiness, an edge to the music. I have thought about AC conditioning etc. But it seems that the Grover's maybe were picking up noise.
Years ago, I had some Music Metre silver IC's and speaker cable and the sound was so sibilant and harsh. It seems the cabling was all unshielded and even when Jim from Music Metre wrapped the silver braided wire with foil tape (his method of shielding), it just didn't improve things. So when Dave's DD's also lowered the noise floor so much, I was very pleasantly surprised.
I listened for a few days savoring my good fortune before I put in the D2's. I will chalk this up a bit to listening fatigue, but I didn't like the D2's nearly as much that night. A bit of the “magic” was gone from my living room. I went to bed and then did some more listening the next day. The D2 does so many things right. It is very neutral, very accurate. The tonal quality was quite good. But I still preferred the DD's. I am fortunate now in that my system is suddenly so revealing. The DD's just are a better fit for me. In re-reading the old posts regarding the tour, Dave asked whether to include his speaker cables and I am sure glad he did. If I thought the DD's were magic, adding the speaker cable put it over the top. I was actually very surprised that Dave's bested the Straley's by so much.... in every category you can imagine. Not only was the soundstage large and deep, but the placement of instruments and singers was just more realistic. The timbre on the instruments...the breathiness of some vocals. I have never heard violins, pianos, guitars, cymbals and drums sound so natural, so organic, in my system. I have carried some of these discs to shows and So California dealers some years ago and they never sounded as good as they do now in my system.
When I first put in the speaker cables, the sound kind of darkened a bit...there was so much more texture and lushness to the sound. I am not talking euphonic at all. Just that there was more of a presence with it in. The increase in resolution was amazing considering how much the DD's improved things. Things were also quieter. I had to get up from my chair repeatedly to keep inching up the volume. At least 80% of the harshness in my system was now gone. Recordings that I had hopelessly given up for poor quality suddenly sounded much better. I listened to some old Motown stuff..the Four Tops etc. Even these previously dull and 2 dimensional recordings had life breathed back into them. I am so thankful that I listened to both the IC and speaker cable. The combination is just wonderful in my system. The way things stand now, it will be much easier to audition equipment and cabling in the future. I plan to enjoy this a bit more and let the new sound etch into my brain. I will then add the D2's back in and also the jumpers. Before I began this audition, I was very skeptical that jumpers would make any difference in my system. After what I've just heard, I am much more open to that idea. But besting anything that Bob Smith did would be quite an achievement.
I don't know when I'll be able to re-do the D2's or the test the jumpers. Hopefully tomorrow, otherwise I have to go out of town this Friday and won't be back until next Tuesday. I would like to keep them til next Thursday or so if possible. Then send them along to the next lucky guy.
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Thanks for the review Nick, I appreciate it. :thumb:
I like your description of the speaker cables, they are very detailed without adding extra warmth or body that reduces resolution, and they also don't add any harshness that causes listening fatigue. I think some folks won't like the reduction in warmth, body, bloom, etc... but that's distortion and the added resolution you get when it's gone is more to my personal preferences in how I'd like my system to sound. Goes to show how much synergy and personal preference count for almost everything.
Feel free to keep them until you are back after the weekend, you can send them on end of the week you return or beginning of the next week.
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I can't write much at this time but these cables should go over to bpape ASAP after NickB is done so he can demo them to an even wider audience.
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I am leaving town in a couple of hours and will be back next Tues and likely keep them through next Wed or Thurs if that is OK with Dave. I do want to keep the tour moving as well. I didn't get a chance to try the jumpers yet and definitely want to do that. I will hate to give them up.... :(
Oh, Bpape can you PM me your address as well ?
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Hi Nick, no problem keepimg them. I think mdfoy might be next, brian is last so he can keep them for longer.
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I have added the jumpers and was listening this evening. Excellent sounding. Will have my final thoughts posted within a few days.
Mdfoy, can you PM me your address as Dave says you're next?
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I am looking forward to listening to the equipment (sometime) in the future. I only hope that everyone has taken good care of these cables so I can get full effects from what they have to offer.
Don
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Don,
The cables arrived in excellent condition and I have handled with care as well. If you are able to audition, they should be in great shape and you are likely in for quite a treat.
On another note re the tour, I should be able to ship tomorrow and will post my final thoughts as well.
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final thoughts regarding Dave's cables
Well, I have lived with them for a couple of weeks and it's been an extremely enjoyable experience. The final configuration is the DD IC's, his speaker cables and the jumpers.
1) they have a much lower noise floor compared to what I currently have
2) they resolve beautifully and appear to very accurately place the singers and instruments in the soundstage
3) they are very neutral and very natural sounding
4) the texture of instruments was wonderful - I've never heard guitars, cymbals and pianos sound better
5) the decay of cymbals was excellent
6) on the appropriate recordings, the sense of a holographic presentation was outstanding
7) if I were to grade the improvement in my system at 100%, adding the DD's contributed 30-40% and adding the speaker cables and jumpers added another 60-70%.
I never did try the D1's. I started out with the DD's. From there, it's really hard to try anything else. I did put the D2's back in, but preferred the "magic" of the DD's. Maybe the D2's are a bit more accurate, but heck, I really don't care. I've only used silver IC's once before and that was maybe 20 years ago. Although very revealing, that brittle and harsh sound was tough to listen to.
The jumpers made a difference! Guess I shouldn't have been surprised. With Dave's jumpers in, I thought there was more texture to the music...aka...it didn't sound as thin. I also thought the jumpers resolved more and presented a slightly more 3 dimensional and accurate (or should I say pleasing) soundstage. I don't know what the the SP Tech jumpers are made of, but they are "U" shaped and pivot to allow the spades to connect to both binding posts. So at the bottom of the "U", there are 2 rivet-like points where the jumpers swivel and I wonder if the minimal contact areas affect the sound.
This is by far the best sound I've had in the 20+ years I've been in audio. Admittedly, I've played very little vinyl over the years and the dac's I've used have been so-so. I never could bring myself to pay a lot of money for a dac with the technology changing so often. I've been very fortunate to have my system upgraded recently with the McCormack DNA 1.0 gold version and Rich's Buffalo 32 dac here to audition Dave's cables.
Dave, I really appreciate you allowing me to take part in the tour. I kept them a few days longer than anticipated and it's very hard to part with them now. I have been trying to sell my stereo cabinet and therefore can't make a commitment to buy anything right now. Once sold, I plan on buying 2 stands and I should be able to get by with either a 3/4 or 1 meter IC pair. Rather than my 12' speaker cables, I would think that maybe 8' would suffice. As a final thought, I'd be very curious indeed to hear that new silver/gold wire that you recently mentioned.
Thanks!
Nick :thumb:
PS I will ship tomorrow and PM Mike .. mdfoy with the details
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Hi Nick,
Thanks for taking the time to write up such a thorough review, I appreciate it!
I'm happy the cables worked out for you and provided an improvement in your system as well. I haven't heard the SP Tech speakers but from the reviews I've read they are very accurate, it seems like they would be right up my alley, I would love to hear them sometime.
Lets make sure Mike is ready to receive the cables, sending out a pm now...
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Dave,
It was my pleasure to audition and write the review. I already mailed them today via UPS ground. Today is Columbus day and UPS was open and cheaper to ship ground for $44 and $1100 insurance. I couldn't afford to ship other than ground. Would have been twice the money and I've got upcoming medical bills and a commitment to buy Rich's dac. So sorry about that. It will arrive next Monday
Nick
will provide tracking # later
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Nick, no problem and ground shipping is fine, it is expensive enough as it is! Thanks for arranging to get them to Mike, makes my life easier too. :)
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DaveC
I got the cables from NickB today. I will keep you posted in my findings.
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Glad you got them Mike! :thumb:
NickB, also just realized I forgot to answer your question about the Noetech silver/gold cable. I have been testing it out and it's incredibly good. It accomplishes some of the same feats as Duelund with silver. Both are not even close to what a run of the mill 4N silver wire sounds like, Duelund through a ribbon wire profile + a unique silk/mineral oil dielectric and Neotech through adding 1% gold to their UPOCC silver wire and using a PE dielectric which is better (and more expensive) than teflon.
The Neotech wire is also much more expensive than Duelund, about twice the price for the same gauge wire. I'm not using as heavy gauge as the Duelund wire is, but it still comes out to be a little more expensive + extra labor to braid the signal wire. It's double the price of Neotech UPOCC silver/teflon wire, which is also incredibly expensive. It'll have to be priced a little higher than the DD cable as well, probably $499.
In comparison to the DD, it is warmer and richer sounding while retaining all the positive qualities associated with silver, great frequency extension, very fast, detailed and clean. The tonality comes across as more "real to life" vs. any other wire I have tested. This is probably the world's best hook up wire right now, Mundorf and others have used alloy wires for a while now, but the Neotech wire is made using the Ohno Continuous Casting process, which makes for a huge improvement compared to conventionally drawn wire. It's a little more similar to the D2 than the DD but it is a huge improvement over the D2.
However, at this level of wire I believe system synergy and personal preference trump any differences I can describe between these cables. If your system is already on the warm/rich side the DD cable is probably a better bet, if you want a richer, warmer sound with a little more body then the Neotech silver/gold cable would be a better choice.
If people are uncertain of the choice between Duelund and Neotech I am trying to come up with a way to send out loaner cables. I will probably need to be paid via paypal, and I can keep it in paypal and issue a refund when I get the cables back. Does anyone have any other ideas how I can do a loaner program?
I would LOVE to braid some speaker cables out of the Neotech silver/gold alloy wire but it would cost thousands of dollars... :duh If anyone wants to order a Neotech s/g speaker cable I will do it for much less than the retail cost of the wire just so I can do it... :thumb:
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Thanks, Dave.
I appreciate the response and explanation. As to the Neotech sounding too warm, that may not be a problem as my systems have always been on the lean and edgy side. Although I strive for a neutral sound, I sure enjoyed the rich sound of the DD's. I didn't consider it colored, just more natural sounding like a club or orchestra setting.
I'll be curious what mdfoy's impressions are
Nick
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Background
I purchased a pair of Dave I, and liked them so much I them swapped up to the Dave II. When the tour was announced I welcomed the opportunity to audition the DD and the speaker cables.
Base configuration
Soundstring on source to pre, Dave II on pre to amp, Coz SC
System configuration 1 - Dave II on source to pre, Dave II on pre to amp, Coz SC
I replaced the Soundstring on the CD with the Dave II to get a feel of Dave II from source to amps.
This was very interesting, as stated in another post on the Dave’s IC signature; it is like fuzz is removed from the edges. The entire range of sound is tightened. There is a little less warmth with Dave II than with the Soundstring in play. Nice, but a noticeable change in character. I will get back to this later.
System configuration 2 - Dave III on source to pre, Dave II on pre to amp, Coz SC
The Dave III on the source brought back the body and soul. There was no fuzz on the peach, but there was depth and weight added back into the mix in addition to inner detail. On Sketches of Spain, Concierto de Aranjuez, the tambourine and maracas sound more real and fleshed out. Cassandra Wilson, New Moon Daughter, Strange Fruit, the guitar had more bite and decay with the Dave III. Where Dave II is nice, the Dave III, very nice in every way. In my system the Dave I to Dave II is a nice jump forward. The Dave II to Dave III is like a jump forward and to the side. It is a different presentation.
System configuration 3 - Dave III on source to pre, Dave II on pre to amp, Dave SP on speakers
The difference in presentation for Dave’s SP than the Coz Cable SP was not that great. There was an additional stability to imaging, maybe a touch of extension in the upper range, but not an appreciable increase in SQ. But a little lean, maybe getting into the realm of too much of a good thing. The Coz are bi-wire with bananas all around, the Dave’s spades on the amp, bananas (REALLY NICE) on the speaker, spades on the jumpers(rhodium on to, copper on the bottom).
System configuration 4 – Dave II on source to pre, Dave III on pre to amp, Dave SC on speakers
This combination was interesting; there was small step back here. The adage of best cable on the source range true here. There was just less all around. Image focus, clarity, dynamics, tone…. The Dave III couldn’t save the day here.
System configuration 5 – Soundstring on source to pre, Dave III on pre to amp, Coz SC on speakers
Now this combination is the motts! The larger sound of the Soundstring, bigger images, bigger bass, more warmth, was controlled and tightened just right by the Dave III. In my system, this is the best of both worlds. The Dave III lowers the noise floor and cleans up the edges and just lets the music flow. There was a noticeable increase in dynamics and clarity with the reintroduction of the Coz. I found that this configuration was the best all around. I will need to test out 2 sets of Dave III to see if that goes into too much, or give me more!
System configuration 6 – Soundstring on source to pre, Dave II on pre to amp, Coz SC on speakers – Back to normal
I found it I good to return back to my reference for confirmation of the observations made during the evaluation. The inclusion of the Dave III in the pre-amp to amp position nailed it for me. This was confirmed by the wife in the other room, “What did you do? It sounded better before.” The Dave line of cables is very good indeed, and not just with the "for the price" qualifier. The Dave III is definitely on my Christmas list, preferably 2 sets!
I thank Dave for the opportunity to participate in the tour.
Music
Cassandra Wilson, Loverly
Lizz Wright, Salt
Michael Breaker, Nearness of You
Miles Davis, Sketches of Spain
Pat Metheny, Travels Live
My system
Amp Odyssey Khartago mono's ++
Pre Response Audio Bella-Max(Purity One prototype)
DAC NorthStar M192
Transport NorthStar M192
Speaker Salk HT1
Phono Heed Quasar, SAE 1000E
TT Thorens TD-125 MKII
IC Source to pre - Soundstring
IC Pre to amp - Dave II
IC Phono to pre - Clarity Cable - Harvest
SP Coz bi-wire
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Mike,
I think your review style is one of the best I've seen. Succinct, clear/easy to follow, and honest. I admire your organization. Many thanks for sharing your findings.
-Carl
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I agree with Carl, thanks for the review Mike! :D
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Hi Dave,
Just curious, does bpape have the cables?
Nick
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Yes, I believe so but I still need to confirm delivery.
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I have the cables as delivered to Bryan 10.31.2013
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Cool, thanks Mike.
I had the tracking just didn't check it... :oops:
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Sorry. Been swamped. I have the cables. Played with them a bit but been absolutely buried. I have a note out to the others in St. Louis who would be interested also.
Bryan
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No problem Bryan, take your time.
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Update:
After having several folks listen to the D3 interconnect cable I am going to offer it. It is the same as the D2/DD, but uses Neotech's new OCC silver/gold alloy wire with foamed PE dialectric as the signal wire.
This cable is going to offer similar performance to the DD cable but is significantly different in it's tone and presentation. It sounds more like a improved version of the D2, it is warm while still having the positive attributes of OPOCC silver. There are some areas where this wire is exceptional... Detail is amazing, more nuance than Duelund, just more information comes through than any other cable I've tried. Tonality is incredible, the most realistic I've heard... copper can sound warm but is slow and smeared compared to the silver/gold wire. And compared to straight silver there is a warmth and richness to the tone that just sounds right.
Now I think I truly have two cables that are both near as good as it gets yet quite different so they will be able to suit different systems and personal preferences.
Before I had in mind the D2 as the alternative to the DD but it's clear that most folks think the DD is quite a bit better, which isn't surprising given Duleund's 10x increase in cost vs the Neotech EC-UPOCC wire in the D2. The D3's silver/gold alloy wire is now the most expensive wire I know about, gauge-for-gauge it's DOUBLE the price of Duelund, but because of it's tone I found I can use the same aggregate gauge as the D2 and get the results I'm looking for, so I can offer the D3 for a modest price increase over the DD, about $50.
I think in general those who are using triodes, class A SS and have an overall warmer system will still prefer the DD, and those using pp and a/b amps with a overall brighter system will probably lean towards the D3.
mdfoy should be getting a box with the DD and D3 in it so he can make some comparisons, he or I will keep this thread updated.
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Hi Dave and thanks for the update. I'll be interested in mdfoy's upcoming evaluation as his previous one was quite interesting and thorough. The D3 combination of tonality and detail has me quite intrigued. I am working on my Buffalo dac and am saving up...skipping meals :lol:... to save up for the DD's or D3. Great stuff, Dave :thumb:
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I have received the cables and will start listening!
Happy Holiday season to all!
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Sounds great Mike.
Hope everyone had a great holiday!
The signal wire in the D3 is Neotech's brand new 99% silver / 1% gold alloy wire produced using the Ohno continuous casting process. Yes, this alloy has been used before by Mundorf and other cable companies, but it has not been produced using the OCC process until now. OCC wire is sonically FAR superior to conventional wire and this makes the new Neotech wire the best and most expensive wire for audio use on the planet right now.
Here's the world's smallest $2500 spool of wire... :green:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/NeotechAgGdWire004_zps2e1c25b6.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/NeotechAgGdWire004_zps2e1c25b6.jpg.html)
And the D3 cable:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06611_zps869ea0e8.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06611_zps869ea0e8.jpg.html)
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After participating in the Dave 2 and DD tour, I did some research on the Dueland wire and found out that there was a 2.0 version of the wire. I pinged Dave to get his opinion on the wire and Dave being Dave was way ahead of me and offered me the opportunity to check out the Duelund 2.0 and D3 cables. Below are my finding of these cables in my system. I had a mishap with my digital source and did the review of these cables on my vinyl source. Making lemonade out the these lemons, I got to check out the DD 2.0 and d3 exclusively in my system, switching tem on source to pre, and pre to amp.
Base configuration - set the baseline
Clarity Harvest II on source to pre, D2 on pre to amp, Coz SC
The Harvest II is a nice cable, it does nothing wrong, but cymbals can get a little more tinny than brassy. One of its strongest points is being very quiet due to the damping in the connectors. A nice cable, and we know about the D2, low noise floor, great tone, good detail.
System configuration 1 - DD.2 on source to pre, D2 on pre to amp, Coz SC
The DD allows all of the detail on the record come through and has very good coherence, and very clean. This is a configuration that I had on the a previous except the DD is now the DD.2. An example, Travels, Are you going with me, the level of articulation on the DD.2 exceeds the Harvest in all frequencies. This cut gets very busy, and all notes are clear and present with the DD.2. They get a little messy in the Harvest. mind you, this is only revealed after a listen with the DD.2. Sonic memory is fleeting, but I believe the DD.2 may be a little cleaner than the DD. This was revealed in the next configuration.
System configuration 2 - DD.2 on source to pre, D3 on pre to amp, Coz SC
This combination made me stop using my cables, and just switch position of the DD.2 and D3. It was made abundantly clear that the D2 was not up to par with the D3. The level of detail and flow from the DD.2 was allowed to flow unabated by the D2. There was detail, depth and weight exposed that was not there with the D2. Sketches of Spain, Solea, this is one of my favorite pieces of all time, at the crescendo, just a beautiful thing. The level of clarity allowed to be displayed by the D3 made the D2 appear broken. I won't say that the D3 smokes or any other colorful words to describe the difference between the two cables, but will just say that I am buying the D3.
System configuration 3 - D3 on source to pre, DD.2 on pre to amp, Coz SC
It is clear the that the presentations of the DD.2 and D3 are different. The level of detail provided by the DD.2 is pretty even with the D3, but the tonal weight of the cables is different. Herbie Hancock, River, Tea leaf Prophecy, Jonie Mitchell's voice had a warmth that the DD.2 did not, and the piano lower register had more weight. The bass on Cassandra Wilson, Blue Moon Daughter, Strange fruit was just more profound. These differences were not terrible or indicating a weakness, but different. The difference in presentation was further clarified to me when in the next configuration.
System configuration 4 - D3 source to pre, D2 on pre to amp, Coz SC
I brought the D2 back in the mix to check a thought I had on the differences between the DD.2 and D3. Everything in configuration 2 was right on, but the weight and tone was heavier with the D3 than with the DD.2. The same level of detail, body, tone, space, dynamics, space, noise floor, but more solid. The DD.2 would be a Vanessa Williams the singer, the D3 would be is Serena Williams, the tennis player, big, strong agile, and a brother likes a thick chick!
All said, in my system the DD.2 and D3 are both very nice cables and have a quality that is easily heard. Both improve upon the D2. How large an improvement is up to you and your system. In my system, the D3 provided a level of enjoyment that is hard to resist. My system was configured for clarity and accuracy. Choices were made to balance a touch warmer than neutral amp, with touch cleaner tube preamp, speakers are dead accurate. The D3 most clearly enhanced the sound. I am going for in my system. I need to figure out how I am going to get at least 2 pair.
Once again, I thank Dave for the opportunity to participate in the tour.
Music
Pat Metheny, Travels Live
Miles Davis/Gil Evans, Sketches of Spain
Herbie Hancock, River
Steely Dan, Greatest Hits
Cassandra Wilson, Blue Moon Daughter
My system
Amp Odyssey Khartago mono's ++
Pre Response Audio Bella-Max(Purity One prototype)
Speaker Salk HT1
Phono Heed Quasar
TT Thorens TD-125 MKII, Audiomods Series 5 tone arm, SAE 1000E
IC Pre to amp - Dave II
IC Phono to pre - Clarity Cable - Harvest
SP Coz bi-wire
Happy holidays to all!
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Thanks for posting Mike, glad you like the D3. :)
Great explanation of the differences between the DD and D3, I think they are different enough there's room for both, and after having a few folks test them in their own systems that seems to be confirmed.
The DD may work better for systems that are a touch on the warm side... systems with triode tube amps or some class A SS. The D3 may be best for systems that tend toward neutral, clean and bright. The D3 tone is magical on some systems, it just adds this sense of realness.
I am going to paste your review on the AC tour thread, it is very through and really above and beyond the call, I do appreciate it.
A few pics of the D3
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/1-D3andDDXLRCables001_zps391f132d.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/1-D3andDDXLRCables001_zps391f132d.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/2-D3andDDXLRCables008_zpsed7f5170.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/2-D3andDDXLRCables008_zpsed7f5170.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/4-D3andDDXLRCables011_zps561edf09.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/4-D3andDDXLRCables011_zps561edf09.jpg.html)
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A few pics of a DD XLR cable:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/5-D3andDDXLRCables028_zpsfe8e44f1.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/5-D3andDDXLRCables028_zpsfe8e44f1.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/7-D3andDDXLRCables053_zps01d94006.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/7-D3andDDXLRCables053_zps01d94006.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/8-D3andDDXLRCables060_zps1e6a40e5.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/8-D3andDDXLRCables060_zps1e6a40e5.jpg.html)
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Is there any speaker cable making the tour? (8' length)
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Hi Jim,
Yes, PM sent.
The tour cables are on their last stop so i can send them to you before they make it back to me. There is a 12' pair of speaker cables in there... :)
I will have D3 cables for demo soon too... I had a lot more orders over the last month and ran out of ground wire.
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Hi Jim,
Yes, PM sent.
The tour cables are on their last stop so i can send them to you before they make it back to me. There is a 12' pair of speaker cables in there... :)
I will have D3 cables for demo soon too... I had a lot more orders over the last month and ran out of ground wire.
Well that is good news. nothing better than sales.
charles
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Looking forward to hearing the D3 with the new Neotech gold silver alloy.
My plain old copper Neotech sounds awesome can only imagine a good silver alloy that is super pure.!
Neotech may change the cable landscape as we see it it in the not too distant future.
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Thanks rollo, things have been busy. I realized I was running out of ground wire right before Christmas so ordering more has been slow but I should have it in by the end of the week I hope.
As soon as I do I will make several D3s and get them burning in. This is causing about a 2 week delay in getting the D3s ready to demo, all the other ones I have are sold so I am without one for my own system too and I miss it!
topround, yes if you like UPOCC copper the silver/gold will blow you away. I was hesitant to even try it and then more hesitant to buy it because of the obscene price but when you have the best wire in the world I guess you charge whatever you want. I think the price is worth it for use as signal wire and ICs, it's speaker cables where the price gets out of hand...
Personally, I wouldn't use anything but UPOCC metals anymore for my system but I'm not sure it complements every system. The downside is that it is very revealing, almost ruthless... if there are issues that cause harshness or edginess the cables won't smooth things out and make them more palatable with added warmth, body and bloat that is characteristic of normal copper. I am actually considering offering a lower end speaker cable that isn't as accurate, but has more warmth and body because it will work better with mid-fi and systems that aren't quite as perfect as we expect them to be here.
I also have plans in the works for a D3 uber, it'll have silver/gold ground wire and WBT silver nextgen RCA plugs or top of the line Furutech... Over on AC it was clear that a Jorma Unity IC cable beat out the DD... the guy testing said if I can beat the Jorma he'd buy it, so I have to try :) The Jorma is $4k so we will see. While the DD is good it's NOT the last word in accuracy so I think it's possible the Neotech alloy + silver RCA plugs will be quite a bit better than the DD. If it can match or beat the Jorma IDK. :)
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Dave my cables were terminated with WBT copper nextgen, and soldered with Mundorf silver / gold solder.
You might want to try that? My cables were also not that expensive.
That some people would pay 4K for an interconnect really shows how much of an advantage marketers have over us silly audiophiles.
It really is just terminating wire, and it does mostly occur in people kitchens.
Not trying to be funny, but somewhere along the road it all got really out of hand. And now they just prey on well heeled audiophiles with insecurities, which makes me wonder how they got so well heeled to begin with?
Yes, I recently became a Neotech fanboy because it really levels the playing field...alot. and takes some of the ridiculousness out of the hobby
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Dave my cables were terminated with WBT copper nextgen, and soldered with Mundorf silver / gold solder.
You might want to try that? My cables were also not that expensive.
That some people would pay 4K for an interconnect really shows how much of an advantage marketers have over us silly audiophiles.
It really is just terminating wire, and it does mostly occur in people kitchens.
Not trying to be funny, but somewhere along the road it all got really out of hand. And now they just prey on well heeled audiophiles with insecurities, which makes me wonder how they got so well heeled to begin with?
Yes, I recently became a Neotech fanboy because it really levels the playing field...alot. and takes some of the ridiculousness out of the hobby
Cable pricing was determined by the rags who boldly stated they should be 10% of system cost. Then the shit broke loose. The difference can be small or huge depending on system. Agreed $4000 is over the top but I wonder what they sound like in direct comparison.
Remember when you installed Kaplans ICs at your meeting. Night and day presentation. There not $4000 but may be worth every penny for someone. Same with cartridges small gain big bucks.
charles
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I think neotech is big gains ,small bucks!
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That some people would pay 4K for an interconnect really shows how much of an advantage marketers have over us silly audiophiles.
It really is just terminating wire, and it does mostly occur in people kitchens.
Not trying to be funny, but somewhere along the road it all got really out of hand. And now they just prey on well heeled audiophiles with insecurities, which makes me wonder how they got so well heeled to begin with?
Yes, I recently became a Neotech fanboy because it really levels the playing field...alot. and takes some of the ridiculousness out of the hobby
Beware the giant killers. People buy value, not price.
EDIT: I added mike's quote so that people wouldn't think I am attacking Dave's Cables. I am standing up for value mfgs and value buyers who have learned the hard way that you can't get something for nothing. Tho people never stop trying, they become "giant-killer" bait. The giant killers never last long because they can't compete with value sellers over time.
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People buy value, not price.
In any case, there's no doubt that everyone here has likely passed the "best value" threshold and moved somewhere into the land of diminishing returns on investment. I could make an IC with twisted pair of UPOCC copper + cheap RCAs for under $100, and it would sound ok. At some point you get to "small gains big bucks" as rollo said.
topround, I agree with you wrt UPOCC copper, it's much more expensive than regular copper but even so the increase in price isn't significant in the cost of a cable. But with silver and the ag/gd alloy the expense is significant! UPOCC silver is the same price as Duelund silver and the ag/gd alloy is double that! Retail for 28g wire is over $7/ft!!!
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I for one have absolutely no issue with products at all price points. In fact I'm happy cost no object cables and other components exist, because there are people who will buy them.
Also, I did not think you were attacking my cables, I am certainly offering one of the best values for the money in this crazy niche. :thumb:
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I am not saying Neotech is a giant killer.
But be be aware that there are at least 20 major cable companies that use Neotech wire in their products. There are only 3 companies in the world licensed to make OCC wire, so it makes sense that a lot of it would make its way into the hands of cable manufacturers.
So maybe the giant killer really isn't killing a giant , just a variation of itself.
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Hi Dave
Will you be doing a 75 Ohm coax cable that can be used from a CD transport to a DAC? If not which Coax cables would you recommend that would match well with the DD2? I'm listening to my system now where I had your cables in place and I"m pondering an entire Dave's cable set-up. Right now my digital coax cable is a McCormack Wonderlink J.
Thanks and Happy New Year.
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Hi, no digital cables for the foreseeable future in my lineup... I haven't used a lot of different SPDIF cables but I would go with one that has a silver plated center conductor and BNC connectors if possible. WBT and Canare make 75 ohm RCAs, I'd just stay away from other RCAs which are likely to not be 75 ohm. And (also going off other's experience) it should be 2 meters + in length. DH Labs digital cables have always seemed nice, I have a 3 meter D-75. I'm just using a Furutech GT2 USB cable now though.
Happy New Years to everyone, 20 min left on the east coast!
I'm sitting home alone with the flu :duh
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Yuk Feel better Dave.
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Hi Dave,
I'm with you on doing some cost no object cables. I'd be very curious what the sound would be compared to the DD (which I love) and the D3 (which I haven't tried yet). Somebody always has the bucks to buy them. If I had the money, I'd be in that category.
As to a digital cable, I understand why you're not doing one, but it sure would be interesting based on what you've achieved with the IC's and speaker cables.
I do have a question for you, or anyone else who wants to chime in, regarding Henan Youk 99.9999% purity monocrystal square wire. Advanced vacuum induction melting, inert gas process refining, and cryogenic finishing. Ultra-Pure-Oxygen-Free wire results in a grain-free sonic performance
http://www.cabledyne.com/rca-digital-cable.html (http://www.cabledyne.com/rca-digital-cable.html)
Nick
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Hi Nick, I think that Henan wire is made by an OCC wire counterfeiter. If it was truly UPOCC wire it would be made by Furutech, Neotech or Oyaide and would be labeled as "UPOCC" wire but they cannot make such claims because they did not license the patent to produce UPOCC wire:
Cryo 99.9999% purity monocrystal square wire: Continuous Directional Solidification process (similar to OCC) offers incredible detail and clarity.
You have to wonder how similar to OCC it really is, and unfortunately it may be impossible to tell without looking at the wire with an electron microscope.
I would stay away from anyone offering something that says single or continuous crystal wire, it should state it is Ohno Continuous Cast (OCC), if they do not state it is OCC I would assume it is counterfeit, is not being produced under license, and quality may be questionable.
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Hi!
Still working on getting demo D3 cables ready, it's getting closer! The D3s have proven to be pretty popular and so far they have not lost a listening comparison against ANYTHING. So I am very happy about that as there has been some stiff competition... the Neotech silver/gold alloy wire is probably unbeatable right now. 8)
I am also testing out RCA connectors for the next cable, which will be an all out assault on making the world's best IC cable. With Neotech as a design partner and the new silver/gold wire I think it is achievable. The geometry will be too complicated to make by hand so I may attempt to crowd-fund the project via kickstarter as the minimum order of cable and connectors will be very expensive.
Here's some pics of the connectors that will be compared on the current D3 cable. After the cables are built, burnt in and tested I will post a thread about connectors so it can be a resource. I am unaware of another comparison of connectors at this level so it should be helpful for those who are considering spending around 4 bills on RCA connectors.
Furutech:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/1-RCAs002_zps659e0224.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/1-RCAs002_zps659e0224.jpg.html)
Neotech:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/2-RCAs003_zps74ebfccc.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/2-RCAs003_zps74ebfccc.jpg.html)
WBT/Mundorf:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/4-RCAs005_zps6a2a59e0.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/4-RCAs005_zps6a2a59e0.jpg.html)
Xhadow (more of an alternative to my current Furutech FP-101 than a choice for the higher end cable, but who knows?)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/3-RCAs004_zps2536ad8b.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/3-RCAs004_zps2536ad8b.jpg.html)
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Very interesting, Dave and a great experiment. It'll be interesting what level of improvement you can get by trying the ultra-expensive RCA's
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I like the look of the Mundorf IC barrels of the 3 shown. I'm interested to read about the differences sonically. I think for kicks Dave should put on Switchcraft gold phono plugs on the DD3 to hear if there could be a difference between them all. ;)
http://www.newark.com/switchcraft/3502abau/connector-rca-phono-plug/dp/83F9081?mckv=sFW2auLsL (http://www.newark.com/switchcraft/3502abau/connector-rca-phono-plug/dp/83F9081?mckv=sFW2auLsL)|pcrid|15840690981|plid|&CMP=KNC-G-SKU-Switchcraft
$8+ phono plugs on big dollar wire. That would be crazy.
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I have used Switchcraft RCAs and they are probably the best of the extremely cheap RCAs... but the connectors do make a major difference with IC cables, and it's likely the SC plugs would do some damage to the signal.
The Neotech vs Furutech may be close as they are both rhodium plated UPOCC copper... the WBTs are quite a bit different so it should be interesting to see. I don't think the Xhadows will be able to compete with the others with it's OFC copper center pin but they may be a good alternative to the Furutech FP-101s I currently use.
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I'm ready to send out D3 interconnect cables for demo!!!
I will send a set to bpape who has the set of tour cables, the D3s will be combined with the tour cables and sent to topround, then on to anyone else interested in hearing them... let me know, either post here or send me a PM. Thanks! :-P
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I have not heard from bpape yet, I will try to message him through his biz...
If anyone else is interested in checking out the tour cables let me know. bpape will have the full set after he gets the D3s.
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I have not heard from bpape yet, I will try to message him through his biz...
If anyone else is interested in checking out the tour cables let me know. bpape will have the full set after he gets the D3s.
Hi Dave
On this leg of the tour would it be the D3 cables only or D3 cables along with all the other awesome cables?
Also I may have someone interested in listening to your cables but the guy is in Hawaii and not part of this forum yet. I'm trying to get him to join but he hasn't yet. I guess too much fun in the sun. Is Hawaii too far for the tour?
Thanks again.
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Hi,
I got hold of Bryan and will be shipping him the D3, probably today. Then he will add it to the cables he has and send them on to topround, then anyone else who is interested in checking them out.
Unfortunately, I think Hawaii is too far for this tour...
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Bryan has the D3s now, and I have an update on the RCA plug test...
The WBT/Mundorf Nexgen RCA plugs are pretty amazing. :thumb:
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Bryan has the D3s now, and I have an update on the RCA plug test...
The WBT/Mundorf Nexgen RCA plugs are pretty amazing. :thumb:
The new WBT connectors hopefully are no bright like the previous editions. I removed everyone and the sound was so much better. Synergy however changes everything.
charles
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Bryan has the D3s now, and I have an update on the RCA plug test...
The WBT/Mundorf Nexgen RCA plugs are pretty amazing. :thumb:
The new WBT connectors hopefully are no bright like the previous editions. I removed everyone and the sound was so much better. Synergy however changes everything.
charles
Any idea what construction/materials differences there are between the new and the old?
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It is mostly the copper Nexgens that have a rep for being a bit on the bright/fatiguing side.
The WBT/Mundorf are silver/gold alloy conductors and this changes everything. Every other RCA plug I have used so far cannot compete, the WBT is just more accurate and detailed without being harsh, edgy or adding anything that could construed as causing listening fatigue.
The Furutech Carbon Fiber plugs are very good but I'm not sure rhodium plating works that well on RCA plugs... it tends to dominate the sound and is very clearly audible, and can accentuate sibilance which the WBT does not do. They sound quite different from the FP-101s I am currently using, and are more than double the price, but I think the 101s are actually more neutral and more forgiving than the CF-102s.
The Neotech rhodium plated UPOCC copper RCAs build quality and bulkiness eliminate it from consideration, it sounds good, maybe as good as the CF-102s, but I just can't put that huge, heavy POS on my cables.
In any case, I stand by my choice of the Furutech FP-101 as the best RCA plug for the money, it is very clear, neutral and detailed. The WBT is certainly better but over 2x the price.
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rollo, it would be nice for you to check out the D3s after Bryan and Mike since you have my other cables.
The D3 is much more neutral, detailed and has more realistic tonality compared to the DD. It actually blows it away imo, not even close. The DD is a nice sounding cable but in direct comparison with the D3 it is not very accurate, detail is missing and the tone is a bit off.
The D3s are beating out every cable they have been compared to so far, including just recently a set of $4500 Nordost Valhallas. A lot of very good and very expensive cables have been replaced by D3s. The worst review I have got so far was "very similar to my top of the line VH Audio interconnect..." (VH Audio wires/cables are manufactured by Neotech)
And the D4 is on the way.... UPOCC silver ground wires and probably the Mundorf silver/gold RCAs. It'll be 2-3x the price of the D3 but the performance is jaw-dropping. A serious improvement over the D3. It may be an 8-strand helical litz array, wound around a cotton core for damping, but I need to do more testing to see if the geometry yields enough of an improvement to justify a much more complicated design that can't be done by hand....
Anyway, I am pretty excited because it seems like there is no limit to the improvements I can make so far. With the D4 a ceiling may be reached though, there is no amount of cash that will be able to improve it.... design yes, but the D4 will have the best of the best parts with no regard to cost. And it will be under $1500.
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Hi pmkap, it's really not bad except being hard to get solder to stick to it... both the body and pin need to be extremely hot to get solder to stick.
And while the plug isn't bad by any means when you directly compare it to the Furutech it's a night and day difference. The Furutech has 2 set screws so solder is not needed, a non-magnetic SS/carbon fiber locking collet, and it looks and feels like a precision instrument.
The WBT also has a much more precise feel and the solder tabs on the nexgens are really nice and very easy to solder to. Overall build quality is better in both Furutech and WBT.
The Neotech also may have a rhodium plated upocc copper ground but it's pressed into a gold plated brass carrier, which seems like a design flaw...
These are all nice connectors and but for me I would take the WBT/Mundorf silver/gold Nexgen if they aren't too expensive and Furutech FP-101(G) if you want something cheaper.
Right now it's looking like there will be a D4 with the Mundorf RCAs and UPOCC silver returns. :thumb: The design of the cable itsself is not finalized though, not sure if it'll be hand built or machine built right now...
Fancy geometry and cable design doesn't mean much if it can't beat simpler designs, and while a more complicated geometry has theoretical advantages, that doesn't matter much unless there is a clear real-life advantage, i.e. it sounds better. :lol:
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I swear I'm not imagining that pmkap asked why I didn't like the Neotech RCA plugs.... :?
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He did. He questioned your characterization of it as a POS.
Neotech seems to be famous (infamous?) for poor construction (e.g., AC connectors) but excellent performance.
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Yeah, Neotech focuses on wire and cable, that is their main business. The connectors they make do sound good but I'm not sure Neotech is too worried about keeping up with offerings from other companies that specialize in accessories.
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Dave - Did you ever try the Xhadows? If so, how did they stack up with the others?
This is getting very interesting. When geometry, strand count and other issues get resolved re: the prospective D4, would your basis for comparison (baseline) be a D3 conductor with UPOCC silver returns and the Mundorf RCAs?
One "notch" down might be the current D3 with the Mundorf RCAs. How does this version compare to those with silver returns?
My intent is not to ensnare you in permutations and inundate you with questions. I was just curious about the most worthwhile tiers as this evolves.
Re: the 101(g)s, it's good to know how they fit in with the others and that they provide high value (like the 126(g) does among it's peers).
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Update:
I have built the first D4 XLR cables, these were ordered with the Furutech CF-600 series plugs... I know some people think they are overpriced, but the stainless steel housing with the carbon fiber inlay is really beautiful and adds dampingm otherwise they are very similar to the FP-600s that have a brass housing. My D4 XLR will normally be built with the FP connectors, one gold plated and one rhodium plated, the CF connectors are a $200 upgrade and only come in rhodium.
The single ended D4s will have the Mundorf RCAs and only one signal leg of course...
Xhadow plugs are really nice but 2 issues... one is silver tarnishes and needs to be cleaned, 2nd, the plating isn't as pure as upocc silver and it does sound like it. This is subtle and not to big of a deal, but I do feel the FP-101s are a less likely to cause listening fatigue. Overall, the FP-101 is more neutral and for my cables I feel they are the best choice although I would like to try the Xhadows on a DD cable, I think they will work better there. If you want a brighter plug than the 101 and don't want to spend $400 on the Mundorfs then the Xhadows are a good choice as well. But the Mundorfs are really just better than anything else available imo.
I do think a D3 cable with the Mundorf RCAs would also be a good choice, maybe a D3.5... :lol:
Right now there are pretty huge jumps in performance from 1 to 4, so just adding the Mundorf RCAs isn't quite enough for them to have their own model, but as an upgrade for the D3 it's a good idea and would be a very obvious improvement.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/1-D4XLRCF001_zps22aef2d7.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/1-D4XLRCF001_zps22aef2d7.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/2-D4XLRCF003_zpsd45fea42.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/2-D4XLRCF003_zpsd45fea42.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/3-D4XLRCF004_zps4c34f1ad.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/3-D4XLRCF004_zps4c34f1ad.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/4-D4XLRCF007_zpsc24c6f00.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/4-D4XLRCF007_zpsc24c6f00.jpg.html)
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Just checking in... Is this still a tour? Did it end?
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It did just end, yes. Bryan is sending the cables back to me so lets call it done.
I am willing to send demos to AN members if they wish to try them and there are 2 tours still going on at AC.
I appreciate everyone who participated, thanks! :thumb:
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Awesome. I'll leave this open for any additional comments this week...
Start a new topic/thread for how to sign up for demos or any other options you want to share with folks.
FYI, Some members have expressed an interest in having a review section of this site... If you don't object I'd like to use the reviews here.
Update... I tried adding review forums here and didn't like it. I'm going to do some more thinking before doing a review section.
Thanks,
Carl