Author Topic: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM  (Read 2192 times)

Offline P.I.

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Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
« Reply #60 on: February 02, 2019, 07:23:31 PM »
Back to the beginning of this thread, Charles made the claim that the preamp is the Heart of the System.  Dave disagreed stating that the amp was the "heart".
I don't claim the same degree of knowledge of either of these gents, but my experience is that a preamp brings out whatever the amp has to deliver... so as far as I'm concerned, your system will only sound as good as both your preamp and amp.  But if I had to pick, I'd still say that the preamp is the key piece to my system.
Scott,

Nope it is “power” meaning incoming AC or DC.  Both of those are awful in standard form these days.

Amps are only amps until they are energized"
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Offline S Clark

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Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
« Reply #61 on: February 02, 2019, 09:37:11 PM »
Back to the beginning of this thread, Charles made the claim that the preamp is the Heart of the System.  Dave disagreed stating that the amp was the "heart".
I don't claim the same degree of knowledge of either of these gents, but my experience is that a preamp brings out whatever the amp has to deliver... so as far as I'm concerned, your system will only sound as good as both your preamp and amp.  But if I had to pick, I'd still say that the preamp is the key piece to my system.
Scott,

Nope it is “power” meaning incoming AC or DC.  Both of those are awful in standard form these days.

Amps are only amps until they are energized"
Well of course that's what you meant.  All the power cleaning stuff you made over the years... I just jumped to amp because that's what I thought of. 
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Offline rollo

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Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2019, 10:36:06 AM »
  The Power is the "Blood" of the system. The Amp is the Arse of the system. The Preamp gives the Arse the correct signal to amplify. The Preamp pumps that signal to the Amp. For me "Heart" it is.


charles
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Offline P.I.

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Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2019, 10:56:01 AM »
 
  The Power is the "Blood" of the system. The Amp is the Arse of the system. The Preamp gives the Arse the correct signal to amplify. The Preamp pumps that signal to the Amp. For me "Heart" it is.


charles
:rofl:   :thumb:
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Offline Folsom

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Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2019, 01:13:25 PM »
  The Power is the "Blood" of the system. The Amp is the Arse of the system. The Preamp gives the Arse the correct signal to amplify. The Preamp pumps that signal to the Amp. For me "Heart" it is.


charles

But with your logic how isn't it the source?

Offline steve

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Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2019, 01:47:33 PM »
From my education and laboratory research, everything affects the sonics in a system. Yes, power is a problem
due to lack of proper filtering stages, varying voltages, including  filament voltage in tube equipment etc.

In general terms:

1) The sources, including TT and phono stage, cd players etc are in the small signal arena, 
materials, internal and extenal influences, voltages involved including filament voltages of tubes etc.

2) The line level preamplifier are involved in small signals, routing different inputs, vibration,
channel separation (such as 90+ db between channels), separation of inputs (90db or more and
with  minimal sonic degradation such as with solid state influence), voltages including filament voltages in tube
components etc.

3) The amplifier is involved with mainly larger level signals, channel separation, electrolytic capacitors, a range from minimal to complex loads called speakers etc.

4) The speaker is involved with electrical to mechanical conversion, room acoustics, a minimal to complex load etc.

Interestingly, just one poor quality part can topple a superb audio system to average or even poor sounding.
So touchy.

I am sure more could be added in terms of specifics.

cheers.

steve

« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 01:51:24 PM by steve »
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Offline rollo

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Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
« Reply #66 on: February 06, 2019, 08:04:23 AM »
  The Power is the "Blood" of the system. The Amp is the Arse of the system. The Preamp gives the Arse the correct signal to amplify. The Preamp pumps that signal to the Amp. For me "Heart" it is.


charles

But with your logic how isn't it the source?

  That would be the brains.  :duh 


charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
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Offline doug s.

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Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
« Reply #67 on: February 09, 2019, 04:30:59 PM »
   "...I cannot tell ya enough how much more music in such a natural way this preamp produces. The small cues of real sound, the inflections, detail, harmonics, decay of notes and sheer dynamics with bass that will shock you...."

hey!  sounds like you just described my refurb'd and highly modded melos ma333r!   :thumb:

seriously, it is one awesome preamp.  i've only heard one other that made me think about wanting to try it in my system, and that's the ~$30k purity audio silver statement.  but why bother, it's a bit out of my price range.  did i win the lottery yet?

i'm sure others mentioned here also are fantastic, like the sas and the lamm.  i actually considered an sas years ago, but it's not full-featured enough for me.  i need at least one tape loop (two is better) and remote.

and, i dunno whether or not the "heart" is the right term for a preamp, but it certainly works for me.  i could easily swap out any other component in my system, and i'd be ok w/that.  but the preamp?  no way.  (unless, of course a lottery win nudges me to audition the purity audio.)

ymmv,

doug s.

Offline Nick B

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Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
« Reply #68 on: February 09, 2019, 04:55:23 PM »
   "...I cannot tell ya enough how much more music in such a natural way this preamp produces. The small cues of real sound, the inflections, detail, harmonics, decay of notes and sheer dynamics with bass that will shock you...."

hey!  sounds like you just described my refurb'd and highly modded melos ma333r!   :thumb:

seriously, it is one awesome preamp.  i've only heard one other that made me think about wanting to try it in my system, and that's the ~$30k purity audio silver statement.  but why bother, it's a bit out of my price range.  did i win the lottery yet?

i'm sure others mentioned here also are fantastic, like the sas and the lamm.  i actually considered an sas years ago, but it's not full-featured enough for me.  i need at least one tape loop (two is better) and remote.

and, i dunno whether or not the "heart" is the right term for a preamp, but it certainly works for me.  i could easily swap out any other component in my system, and i'd be ok w/that.  but the preamp?  no way.  (unless, of course a lottery win nudges me to audition the purity audio.)

ymmv,

doug s.

Doug,
Did Mark Porzilli, https://melosaudiorestoration.com/ or someone else do the restoration?  If you’re not shy, can I ask what the latest restoration cost? I’ve already looked at prices at hifi shark for used ones. Oh, do you use the Melos for phono?
Nick
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Offline doug s.

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Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
« Reply #69 on: February 09, 2019, 06:25:43 PM »
Doug,
Did Mark Porzilli, https://melosaudiorestoration.com/ or someone else do the restoration?  If you’re not shy, can I ask what the latest restoration cost? I’ve already looked at prices at hifi shark for used ones. Oh, do you use the Melos for phono?
Nick
wow, what website is that?!?  melos audio restoration was run by wil guering, who passed away more than 10 years ago.  the text on the link you posted looks like smith denver found mar's old web info and posted it there.

my preamp was upgraded by wil before he passed away, and the mod included the mark porzilli designed tube volume pot upgrade.  more recently, mark has started refurbing and modding older melos gear; i had mine done a couple of years ago; as at ~20 years old, it needed some fine tuning. the dual-mono remote volume pots, which never tracked equally and were a pita to balance, are now controlled by a single pot.  still dual mono thru the tube volume control.  the balance control now doesn't work; mark said it would only do +/-6db anyway, but it doesn't even do that.  i may or may not send it back to him for a re-do, as i don't really need the balance control, and it sounds great, and everything else has been updated/cleaned/sorted.  he even did a tube mod, which he charges $80/tube to do.  total cost for the refurb and mods was $1k.  it was money well spent, imo.  if you can find a properly operating ma333r or sha-gold-r, they are a freaking bargain for the performance offered, imo.  and the fact that mark is servicing melos again, is another benefit.

mark porzilli is a bit of an eccentric genius, imo.  besides melos, he was involved w/the design of the pipedreams speakers, and is involved w/designing scaena speakers, and the nova physics memory player 64.

doug s.

Offline doug s.

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Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
« Reply #70 on: February 09, 2019, 06:30:49 PM »
ps - i do not have the melos phono stage; only the line stage. for phono, i am using a pentagon ps-3.  i have recently gotten an audio interface mc80-l step-up transformer, which seems to have taken my low-output mc up a notch through the pentagon.  but since i've been using my daughter's empire turntable and m/m cartridge until she returns from her travels to pick it up, i haven't really given the step-up a serious workout.

doug s.

Offline Nick B

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Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
« Reply #71 on: February 09, 2019, 07:43:10 PM »
Doug,
Did Mark Porzilli, https://melosaudiorestoration.com/ or someone else do the restoration?  If you’re not shy, can I ask what the latest restoration cost? I’ve already looked at prices at hifi shark for used ones. Oh, do you use the Melos for phono?
Nick
wow, what website is that?!?  melos audio restoration was run by wil guering, who passed away more than 10 years ago.  the text on the link you posted looks like smith denver found mar's old web info and posted it there.

my preamp was upgraded by wil before he passed away, and the mod included the mark porzilli designed tube volume pot upgrade.  more recently, mark has started refurbing and modding older melos gear; i had mine done a couple of years ago; as at ~20 years old, it needed some fine tuning. the dual-mono remote volume pots, which never tracked equally and were a pita to balance, are now controlled by a single pot.  still dual mono thru the tube volume control.  the balance control now doesn't work; mark said it would only do +/-6db anyway, but it doesn't even do that.  i may or may not send it back to him for a re-do, as i don't really need the balance control, and it sounds great, and everything else has been updated/cleaned/sorted.  he even did a tube mod, which he charges $80/tube to do.  total cost for the refurb and mods was $1k.  it was money well spent, imo.  if you can find a properly operating ma333r or sha-gold-r, they are a freaking bargain for the performance offered, imo.  and the fact that mark is servicing melos again, is another benefit.

mark porzilli is a bit of an eccentric genius, imo.  besides melos, he was involved w/the design of the pipedreams speakers, and is involved w/designing scaena speakers, and the nova physics memory player 64.

doug s.

Doug,
Thanks for refreshing my memory a bit on this. I guess one of Mark’s projects is https://www.thememoryplayer.net/blank
$1,000 is quite reasonable for a refurb
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline doug s.

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Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
« Reply #72 on: February 09, 2019, 08:08:44 PM »
Doug,
Did Mark Porzilli, https://melosaudiorestoration.com/ or someone else do the restoration?  If you’re not shy, can I ask what the latest restoration cost? I’ve already looked at prices at hifi shark for used ones. Oh, do you use the Melos for phono?
Nick
wow, what website is that?!?  melos audio restoration was run by wil guering, who passed away more than 10 years ago.  the text on the link you posted looks like smith denver found mar's old web info and posted it there.

my preamp was upgraded by wil before he passed away, and the mod included the mark porzilli designed tube volume pot upgrade.  more recently, mark has started refurbing and modding older melos gear; i had mine done a couple of years ago; as at ~20 years old, it needed some fine tuning. the dual-mono remote volume pots, which never tracked equally and were a pita to balance, are now controlled by a single pot.  still dual mono thru the tube volume control.  the balance control now doesn't work; mark said it would only do +/-6db anyway, but it doesn't even do that.  i may or may not send it back to him for a re-do, as i don't really need the balance control, and it sounds great, and everything else has been updated/cleaned/sorted.  he even did a tube mod, which he charges $80/tube to do.  total cost for the refurb and mods was $1k.  it was money well spent, imo.  if you can find a properly operating ma333r or sha-gold-r, they are a freaking bargain for the performance offered, imo.  and the fact that mark is servicing melos again, is another benefit.

mark porzilli is a bit of an eccentric genius, imo.  besides melos, he was involved w/the design of the pipedreams speakers, and is involved w/designing scaena speakers, and the nova physics memory player 64.

doug s.

Doug,
Thanks for refreshing my memory a bit on this. I guess one of Mark’s projects is https://www.thememoryplayer.net/blank
$1,000 is quite reasonable for a refurb
Nick
yes, mark is responsible for the memory player 64.  also a (relatively) more reasonable iteration:
https://www.thememoryplayer.net/the-mini
it's about the only absurdly priced digital gear that has even gotten my attention as a possible upgrade to my present digital gear.  as i said, i think mark knows what he's doing...

and re: my melos ma333r, it wasn't just a refurb, but it was upgraded as well.

if you can live w/o remote, or are willing to insert something like the diyaudioparadise eva2 between your amp and preamp, i would recommend the melos ma222 presently on audiogon and canuckaudiomart.  i emailed the seller, and it has all the settings for its built-in fono stage marked on the inside of the case; and he said he's getting a manual for it next week.  plus mark probably has upgrades for it as well. 

doug s.

Offline Nick B

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Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
« Reply #73 on: February 09, 2019, 09:12:10 PM »
ps - i do not have the melos phono stage; only the line stage. for phono, i am using a pentagon ps-3.  i have recently gotten an audio interface mc80-l step-up transformer, which seems to have taken my low-output mc up a notch through the pentagon.  but since i've been using my daughter's empire turntable and m/m cartridge until she returns from her travels to pick it up, i haven't really given the step-up a serious workout.

doug s.

I’d never heard of a Pentagon ps3 and I only found one via Google. Another revelation from you :)
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline doug s.

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Re: PREAMP - HEART of the SYSTEM
« Reply #74 on: February 10, 2019, 01:34:13 PM »
ps - i do not have the melos phono stage; only the line stage. for phono, i am using a pentagon ps-3.  i have recently gotten an audio interface mc80-l step-up transformer, which seems to have taken my low-output mc up a notch through the pentagon.  but since i've been using my daughter's empire turntable and m/m cartridge until she returns from her travels to pick it up, i haven't really given the step-up a serious workout.

doug s.

I’d never heard of a Pentagon ps3 and I only found one via Google. Another revelation from you :)
yes, pentagon was a short-lived german company that made quite decent gear.  it retailed for ~$2.5k; they go relatively inexpensively, due to no info about 'em.  it's far nicer than anything i could have found new at even double the price i paid for it.

doug s.