Author Topic: Measurements and Voicing  (Read 523 times)

Offline P.I.

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 548
  • Silence is that blackness beneath the music
    • P.I. audio group, LLC
Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2018, 10:27:15 PM »
Somebody online stated that 'voicing is a band aid for an improper design'.

I can guess who the "somebody" is, or maybe a few gentlemen on other forums Jim.

Some of those guys hype themselves while understanding virtually nothing about electronics, physics, or phycho- acoustics. As such, they are very close to being crooks by misrepresenting themselves.

They either work for audio companies, own a company, are affiliated with certain companies etc.
There are conflicts of interest. The important thing is to not buy into their false claims.
Ignore them. Get the word out.

cheers

steve
Or they own the forum... Several of those around.  :roll:
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline doug s.

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2019, 06:55:11 PM »
hi all!

hippo gnu ears!   :mrgreen:

maybe it's a different sort of measuring, but i find that on the hometheaterreview/audiophilereview blogs, i typically get involved in "discussions" re: digital vs analog.  there are some strong proponents of the "fact" that analog cannot possibly sound better than digital due to the fact that digital's specs are far superior.  my position is that there are obviously some things that can't be measured regarding how human beings hear; otherwise vinyl would not continue to be so popular.  after all, it's certainly not popular due to its convenience!   :rofl:

i typically listen to more digital than analog; and most of it on an internet tuner, connected to (one of) my old faithful heavily modded art di/o dac(s).  with bitrates as low as 128kbps, the sound is still good enough for "sweetspot" listening; something i couldn't say about redbook cd until ~y2k.  with the higher bitrate stations - ie: 192, 320, and flac - it's even better.  but, my ears do not lie, and whenever i listen to vinyl, it's always more like real music.  even at the recent caf, i found the best sounding rooms were spinning vinyl. 

ymmv,

doug s.

Offline rollo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 5455
  • Rollo Audio - Home demo the only way to know
Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2019, 07:30:06 AM »
  Doug I would love the opportunity to let you hear state of the art digital in your system. The Art DIO is VG however much advanced digital out there.
  I do love the routine of playing LPs and enjoy their sound. Today its a much closer call the CD/LP thing. Both have an advantage over the other. For years iIwould lecture about vinyls superior sonics over CD. As time went on the advancement in digital just kept getting closer to vinyl.
  It was not until I bought a state of the art digital front end to match the analog in my system. Now both are just wonderful again with vinyl being a tad more 3D and rounder and CD more transparent and dynamic.
  Love both formats however feel in the very near future digital will be better overall.


charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm - Aqua Acoustic Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm Speakers - PI Audio Uberbuss - Triode Wire Labs- Kuzma - Furutech - Audio Hungry Qualiton - Fritz Carrera speakers -Gigawatt-Arion

Offline doug s.

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2019, 11:16:38 AM »
  Doug I would love the opportunity to let you hear state of the art digital in your system. The Art DIO is VG however much advanced digital out there.
  I do love the routine of playing LPs and enjoy their sound. Today its a much closer call the CD/LP thing. Both have an advantage over the other. For years iIwould lecture about vinyls superior sonics over CD. As time went on the advancement in digital just kept getting closer to vinyl.
  It was not until I bought a state of the art digital front end to match the analog in my system. Now both are just wonderful again with vinyl being a tad more 3D and rounder and CD more transparent and dynamic.
  Love both formats however feel in the very near future digital will be better overall.


charles
hi charles,

if i can get the ex to give me access to all the old cd's i left behind, i will be interested in an innuos zen mini mkiii to convert all my digital software.  but it will likely still be outputted into one of my di/o's.  and, it will likely be bought used, because i simply can't justify spending more than a few hundred dollars on anything digital in an audio system.  (in this case, i may spend a bit more, as i like the idea of having all my digital software stored in an easy-to-access format.)

i have heard newer/more expensive digital systems, and while they may be better in some aspects, for the most part, they're simply different, and not actually enough better (if at all?) to justify an outlay of cash; certainly not serious cash anyway.  i did buy a more modern yulong sabre d18 dac not too long ago, because i needed another dac.  it got great reviews, as a product that performed way above its retail price of ~$800.  so, it was a no-brainer for me, when i found one for $250 shipped.  yes, it's nice.  no, it's not categorically better than my di/o.  (but i have never done a serious comparison - it's nice, it's digital, i don't care; it's good enough.) 

i can enjoy listening to digital audio, and i do.  but even digital systems that cost more than my entire rig still don't sound like analog.  at least not to my ears.  i am simply completely uninterested in investing any serious money in an attempt to get something "better" than analog. or even "as good."   i just don't really care.  there is something nice about being content.

so, charles, unless you know of something quite a bit <$1k that you think will "knock my socks off", and be a real paradigm shift, it's not something i'd consider.  changes in digital, even over the past 10 years - at least to my aging ears - have been extremely minute.  unless, it's just bad, of course! haha!

ymmv,

doug s.


Offline rollo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 5455
  • Rollo Audio - Home demo the only way to know
Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2019, 11:39:25 AM »
   Doug that is the issue no under 1K or even 2K DAC will do. They just do not stack up compared to say an Aqua, DCS, MSB DAC but they will cost ya. At least the Aqua is modular and future proof.
   Anyway love both formats any way ya slice it. Enjoy !!!! Actually running a mono and stereo TT. Loving the mono Jazz.


charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm - Aqua Acoustic Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm Speakers - PI Audio Uberbuss - Triode Wire Labs- Kuzma - Furutech - Audio Hungry Qualiton - Fritz Carrera speakers -Gigawatt-Arion

Offline doug s.

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2019, 01:29:29 PM »
   Doug that is the issue no under 1K or even 2K DAC will do. They just do not stack up compared to say an Aqua, DCS, MSB DAC but they will cost ya. At least the Aqua is modular and future proof.
   Anyway love both formats any way ya slice it. Enjoy !!!! Actually running a mono and stereo TT. Loving the mono Jazz.


charles
my issue is that i hear no significant improvements in the kilobuck dacs.  just different, not better.  maybe i should count myself lucky that i hear no appreciable improvements, because i cannot afford it anyway.

however, i am not completely close-minded about it - if ears that i respect tell me that something like the schiit yggdrasil 2 is in fact as good as some of the press says it is - ie: it is in the same league as the dacs that cost more than my complete rig - then that's something i might consider auditioning in my own system.  because, then, i might be able to snag a used or demo version for a lot more money than i'd normally consider paying, if i really noticed a worthwhile improvement, because i could actually afford it.  and i could justify it because it would replace two dacs currently in use in the main rig.  and hell, i could pay for it by selling a tuna or three - i have way more of those than any sane person should have!  :rofl:

doug s.

Offline rollo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 5455
  • Rollo Audio - Home demo the only way to know
Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2019, 10:00:17 AM »
  Where are ya located ? I understand your point. The Innuos Zen Mini especially with outboard power supply is a Kaboom for the buck product. We just cannot keep them in stock. Yes the Schiit is getting some notice. However I prefer ladder DACs to chips. I find most to be bright and over detailed. However have not heard Schitt so cannot comment on performance.
 What tunas you have there that need a new home ??

charles
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 10:05:22 AM by rollo »
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm - Aqua Acoustic Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm Speakers - PI Audio Uberbuss - Triode Wire Labs- Kuzma - Furutech - Audio Hungry Qualiton - Fritz Carrera speakers -Gigawatt-Arion

Offline doug s.

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2019, 11:03:51 AM »
  Where are ya located ? I understand your point. The Innuos Zen Mini especially with outboard power supply is a Kaboom for the buck product. We just cannot keep them in stock. Yes the Schiit is getting some notice. However I prefer ladder DACs to chips. I find most to be bright and over detailed. However have not heard Schitt so cannot comment on performance.
 What tunas you have there that need a new home ??

charles
hi charles,

as you should know, i am close to dc.  i'm about halfway between frederick md and harper's ferry, wv.  a few years back, my art di/o was at least as good as whatever rim was running on the digital side of his system; i haven't heard his system lately, so that could have changed. ;)

fyi, the schiit yggdrasil is a ladder dac.  it's gotten rave reviews; another (relatively) reasonably priced ladder dac to have gotten great reviews is the kitsune spring dac kte, w/a new spring2 iteration to be released in a few weeks.  kitsune also offers lower-priced ladder dacs, both under the kitsuune name and the holo audio name.

regarding tuna, what flavor do you want?   :lol:  if you want a refurb'd modded sansui tu-x1, i could consider getting a new dac (or innuos) pretty quickly!   :D  i also have a range of lower priced tuna whose performance would be difficult to discern from the tu-x1 w/o direct a-b, and maybe even with direct a-b.  rotel rt990bx, yamaha tx1000, revox b260s, refurb'd modded sony st-a6b, to name a few.  if someone's interested in reception capabilities and not so much the sonics, i have two sony xdr f1hd's, one modded to the max, (including forcing h/d stations to analog); the other is stock.  the modded unit is listenable, but still far from audiophile quality.  (unlike the others, which will give audiophile sound.)  the stock one is good for background music/talk only. but these xdr's are pretty-much unbeatable for reception abilities. 

doug s.

Offline rollo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 5455
  • Rollo Audio - Home demo the only way to know
Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2019, 12:31:49 PM »
  Doug my apologies thought you another Doug my bad. Was unaware that was a ladder DAC, stand corrected.


charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm - Aqua Acoustic Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm Speakers - PI Audio Uberbuss - Triode Wire Labs- Kuzma - Furutech - Audio Hungry Qualiton - Fritz Carrera speakers -Gigawatt-Arion

Offline doug s.

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2019, 12:40:23 PM »
  Doug my apologies thought you another Doug my bad. Was unaware that was a ladder DAC, stand corrected.


charles
no problem, charlie!  i know there's lotsa dougs on this forum, especially those with art di/o dacs and an extensive tuna collection!   :rofl:

best,

doug

Offline steve

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 573
    • Reference components
Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2019, 08:11:35 PM »
  Where are ya located ? I understand your point. The Innuos Zen Mini especially with outboard power supply is a Kaboom for the buck product. We just cannot keep them in stock. Yes the Schiit is getting some notice. However I prefer ladder DACs to chips. I find most to be bright and over detailed. However have not heard Schitt so cannot comment on performance.
 What tunas you have there that need a new home ??

charles

I was given a mode 2 DAC and have been testing it Charles. The mode 2 is somewhat bass heavy, but not nearly as bass heavy as the dragon fly. I am in the process of modifying the mode 2, with very nice success. I don't know about the mode 3, as from what I have heard it has a redesigned power supply.

cheers

steve
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 08:23:35 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (retired, but manufacturing "V" ics again)

SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Preamp
SAS Audio 25 W Triode Amp
Test Spkrs
"V" ICs
10 parallel 18 ga. speaker wires