Author Topic: Measurements and Voicing  (Read 1099 times)

Offline rollo

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Measurements and Voicing
« on: December 22, 2018, 01:19:58 PM »
  There is allot of BS coming from some reviewers about measurements being the only criteria for good sound. I say BS. Remember Halcro, Japenese receivers and so on. The best of the best measurements but sounded like crapola.
The bottom line is how close does it reproduce the heart, soul and detail of recording.
   Part selection is critical for great sound. Even some distortion yes distortion is required to achieve a lifelike sound. NOT saying measurements do not matter. Of course they do. Just is not the end all IMHO.  If it was just go out and buy a Japanese 1970 receiver. Ye say ???. Lots of great sounding gear is being ripped due to less than perfect measurements but sales are through the roof, please explain.


charles
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Offline Nick B

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Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2018, 01:27:15 PM »
There certainly was a bit of blowback regarding Stereophile痴 review and measurements regarding the Border Patrol dac. There was also  a funny and pointed letter to the editor by a BP dac user. He and I, Dave, Pete and a lot of others love that dac. As I値l never measure a  device on my own and be around anyone who does, all I care about is how it sounds 🎻🎶
Nick
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 01:28:55 PM by Nick B »
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline P.I.

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Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2018, 11:06:07 PM »
OK.  I値l go ahead and say what I know to be true.  JA is a dolt.

Right before Stereophile was sold to Petersen Publishing in 1998 I was contracted to design a new listening room for their new building in Santa Fe.  Larry Archibald and I had many meetings and lunches during that time and JA was in attendance for a few.  He was on the measurement quest back then and LA would shake his head after Atkinson would leave and say that John was trying to come to grips with measurements not agreeing with what he (JA) heard.

I知 still not convinced that measurements tell the truth about sound quality because they measure voltage relative to resistance even during frequency response curves and time domain plots.

Laser interferometry is a different animal, but it is used for different purposes.
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline Nick B

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Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2018, 09:28:18 AM »
OK.  I値l go ahead and say what I know to be true.  JA is a dolt.

Right before Stereophile was sold to Petersen Publishing in 1998 I was contracted to design a new listening room for their new building in Santa Fe.  Larry Archibald and I had many meetings and lunches during that time and JA was in attendance for a few.  He was on the measurement quest back then and LA would shake his head after Atkinson would leave and say that John was trying to come to grips with measurements not agreeing with what he (JA) heard.

I知 still not convinced that measurements tell the truth about sound quality because they measure voltage relative to resistance even during frequency response curves and time domain plots.

Laser interferometry is a different animal, but it is used for different purposes.

Dave,
You sure know a lot of guys in this biz. Thanks for your 杜easured response.
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline P.I.

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Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2018, 11:11:09 PM »
Like Buddy Guy and Pete say:  I知 old.
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline Triode Pete

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Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2018, 09:20:11 AM »
www.TriodeWireLabs.com
WT Reference/CA Maestro
Vinnie Rossi Signature L2 Preamp
Vinnie Rossi PS -NanoCD
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Offline dflee

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Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2018, 10:12:09 AM »
Now that is just plain mean Pete. (True but still mean).
Sweet Tea anyone?
Gettin old ain't for sissies.

Don

Offline jimbones

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Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2018, 10:18:38 AM »
I consider measurements to be a starting point. After that I believe it acceptable to voice a component. I "voice" my speakers after the initial design and find it to be more satisfying. Somebody online stated that 'voicing is a band aid for an improper design'. Well, I spoke with a a few highly regarded designers and they all voice their equipment.
Modwright LS100 Pre, Wells Audio Inamorata Pwr, VPI Classic II/BenzMicro Glider, Lambda Legend OB Speakers,  Auralic Vega DAC, Emotiva ERC-3, MIT, WireWorld, Wywires, Shunyata, TWL

Offline P.I.

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Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2018, 03:39:15 PM »
Like Buddy Guy and Pete say:  I知 old.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UjW-Rd2B3o
When Gayle and I walked into the TWL/Volti/Border Patrol room and you had me sit in the sweet spot I thought how special.  When Buddy started singing I KNEW it was special!    :thumb:
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline P.I.

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Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2018, 03:42:58 PM »
I consider measurements to be a starting point. After that I believe it acceptable to voice a component. I "voice" my speakers after the initial design and find it to be more satisfying. Somebody online stated that 'voicing is a band aid for an improper design'. Well, I spoke with a a few highly regarded designers and they all voice their equipment.
粘omebody was and is wrong.  Voicing completes a design by compensating for the individual differences in components and gear.  It also allows for personal preference.
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline steve

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Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2018, 09:01:30 PM »
I agree, measurements are not the all that some claim. I have mentioned several times on forums that I am adjusting
my zobel resistor by 2 millionths of an ohm and we perceive the sonic, tonal, frequency response difference.

That kind of adjustment causes slight changes over many octaves. The saying we have is when we adjust the treble, the sonic changes are perceived all the way to/through the bass. RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook also indicates such perceptions back in 1960 and probably before.

cheers

steve
« Last Edit: December 24, 2018, 09:03:49 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (retired, but manufacturing "V" ics again)

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Offline rollo

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Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2018, 09:03:25 AM »
  It was not only the Border Patrol DAC. Aqua Formula xHD DAC, and LTA were berated as well. Then there is Audio Note, hammered.
 It also appears that some reviewers long in the tooth like a bright sound. The younger ones a crisp sound. Your thoughts ??

charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm - Aqua Acoustic Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm Speakers - PI Audio Uberbuss - Triode Wire Labs- Kuzma - Furutech - Audio Hungry Qualiton - Fritz Carrera speakers -Gigawatt-Arion

Offline Nick B

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Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2018, 09:18:17 AM »
  It was not only the Border Patrol DAC. Aqua Formula xHD DAC, and LTA were berated as well. Then there is Audio Note, hammered.
 It also appears that some reviewers long in the tooth like a bright sound. The younger ones a crisp sound. Your thoughts ??

charles

As I was smitten for the longest time by ultimate detail retrieval, I didn稚 appreciate the  musicality that a product like the BP dac can deliver. If measurements are the be all end all, then why bother to listen to or audition anything? I知 not sure about the younger crowd. The ones I know never hint at appreciating quality sound. They池e just wrapped up in having headphones on so they can tune out the world
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline steve

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Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2018, 01:48:13 PM »
An audiophile friend gave me a Shiit Mode 2 dac, and it is impressive. However, I haven't auditioned others
to compare against, save the "Dragon Fly", which did not impressed.

Anyone else compare the Shiit to some others?

cheers

steve 
Steve Sammet (retired, but manufacturing "V" ics again)

SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio 25 W Triode Reference Amplifier
Test Spkrs
"V" ICs
10 parallel 18 ga. speaker wires

Offline steve

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Re: Measurements and Voicing
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2018, 02:16:29 PM »
Somebody online stated that 'voicing is a band aid for an improper design'.

I can guess who the "somebody" is, or maybe a few gentlemen on other forums Jim.

Some of those guys hype themselves while understanding virtually nothing about electronics, physics, or phycho- acoustics. As such, they are very close to being crooks by misrepresenting themselves.

Some years ago, one was known as XX the fraud on Stereophile forums. He joined and immediately started calling everyone a "pervert" because he/she didn't agree with him. Then he, and his friend, were flat out caught falsifying data, and undercutting a major study by posting false information about that study.

They either work for audio companies, own a company, are affiliated with certain companies etc.
There are conflicts of interest. The important thing is to not buy into their false claims.
Ignore them. Get the word out.

cheers

steve

« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 02:20:41 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (retired, but manufacturing "V" ics again)

SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio 25 W Triode Reference Amplifier
Test Spkrs
"V" ICs
10 parallel 18 ga. speaker wires