Author Topic: Reflowing solder joints  (Read 555 times)

Offline S Clark

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Reflowing solder joints
« on: December 11, 2018, 08:23:46 PM »
Working on an old Victor TT with a blown fuse- so I decided to replacing caps hoping that a job that needed to be done will also solve the problem.  I've read that it's a good idea to reflow solder joints, so I did just that while waiting for caps to arrive.  Then I saw that one YouTube guy thinks all old solder should be removed.  Have I screwed up? When a joint needed extra, I simply added a touch of Cardas eutechtic and held it molten for an extra half second or so.  I'm comfortable with an iron, but mostly with new projects, not on old stuff.  Any comments are appreciated. 
TT- Technics , Vyger  / Quintet Blue, Dyna 20x2, Blackbird
Phono pre- Dodd, , Jolida
Cables- Bolder, Wywires, TWL,
Speakers- LS-9, X-Static/GR-servo
Pre-Dodd
Amp- Moscode, Dodd, Folsom
P.I. Audio diffusers
DIY corner traps

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: Reflowing solder joints
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2018, 01:12:11 PM »
Solder joints, whether new made or re-flowed, should always be smooth and shiny. If they have a rough appearance you may have crystallization present which means a weak solder joint. If I were re-flowing a joint I would use Kester 44 as it is more resistant to crystallization than silver and copper bearing solders.
 That being said, if the joint looks smooth and shiny you're good to go.
Scotty

Offline Folsom

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Re: Reflowing solder joints
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2018, 05:49:20 PM »
I use Kester 44. Silver is for silver plated things.

Offline steve

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Re: Reflowing solder joints
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2018, 06:22:37 PM »
Working on an old Victor TT with a blown fuse- so I decided to replacing caps hoping that a job that needed to be done will also solve the problem.  I've read that it's a good idea to reflow solder joints, so I did just that while waiting for caps to arrive.  Then I saw that one YouTube guy thinks all old solder should be removed.  Have I screwed up? When a joint needed extra, I simply added a touch of Cardas eutechtic and held it molten for an extra half second or so.  I'm comfortable with an iron, but mostly with new projects, not on old stuff.  Any comments are appreciated.

Hi S Clark,

I am glad you use Eutectic solder, preferably quad. This is much stronger, more sonically accurate than other solders.
From that aspect, I would clean off the old. However, cleaning off the old will alter the sonics, a consideration, but then the parts are most likely out of tolerance anyway.

I have performed a lot of special listening tests of projects, and with superior parts have found the quad Eutectic solder the most accurate/natural. (Tri tends to grow tentacles over time, that tend to short out to other wires/foils.)

Cheers and good luck on your project S.

steve
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 06:28:08 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (retired, but manufacturing "V" ics again)

SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio 25 W Triode Reference Amplifier
Test Spkrs
"V" ICs
10 parallel 18 ga. speaker wires

Offline P.I.

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Re: Reflowing solder joints
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2018, 08:03:20 PM »
Working on an old Victor TT with a blown fuse- so I decided to replacing caps hoping that a job that needed to be done will also solve the problem.  I've read that it's a good idea to reflow solder joints, so I did just that while waiting for caps to arrive.  Then I saw that one YouTube guy thinks all old solder should be removed.  Have I screwed up? When a joint needed extra, I simply added a touch of Cardas eutechtic and held it molten for an extra half second or so.  I'm comfortable with an iron, but mostly with new projects, not on old stuff.  Any comments are appreciated.

Hi S Clark,

I am glad you use Eutectic solder, preferably quad. This is much stronger, more sonically accurate than other solders.
From that aspect, I would clean off the old. However, cleaning off the old will alter the sonics, a consideration, but then the parts are most likely out of tolerance anyway.

I have performed a lot of special listening tests of projects, and with superior parts have found the quad Eutectic solder the most accurate/natural. (Tri tends to grow tentacles over time, that tend to short out to other wires/foils.)

Cheers and good luck on your project S.

steve
+1

The exception is when replacing components.  First and MOST important is to clean the leads on the part being replaced.  Use a great solder of your choice, purge the joints without moving the components unless replacing them.  Use a lot of heat for a very short time and look for the reflection of your smile while admiring your work. 

Enjoy!

I work on more than a few old guitar amps.  Looking at the solder joints of these 40+ year old pieces of gear reminds me that lot LOT of vintage gear was built with 50/50 solder.  It is easy to tell these joints.  They are covered with white oxidation that will flake off and contaminate other components and rudimentary circuit boards.  These have to be purged in order to get optimal performance.  Purist collectors will downgrade a great vintage amp at least 30% in value, but those guys don’t play them anyway.

My question is always:  “How does it sound?”
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 08:20:33 PM by P.I. »
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Offline S Clark

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Re: Reflowing solder joints
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2018, 09:09:45 PM »
Glad to say this project worked out successfully.  The Victor TT-81 has been playing solidly for about 4 hours with no speed variation. 
One oddity along the way, though.  The parts on the list in the service manual didn't exactly match what was on the the speed control circuit board.  I'm betting a typo caused a 3.3 uF cap to be listed as 33uF.  I replace the cap with what was on the board, not what was in the service manual.  Nice to get a deal on a quality piece, and make repairs and upgrades for $10 worth of parts!

TT- Technics , Vyger  / Quintet Blue, Dyna 20x2, Blackbird
Phono pre- Dodd, , Jolida
Cables- Bolder, Wywires, TWL,
Speakers- LS-9, X-Static/GR-servo
Pre-Dodd
Amp- Moscode, Dodd, Folsom
P.I. Audio diffusers
DIY corner traps

Offline Nick B

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Re: Reflowing solder joints
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2018, 12:35:14 AM »
Very nice. Did you pick this up recently or you’ve had it a while? I’m really not up to date on what are very good old TTs, except for DougS liking the Empire tables
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline S Clark

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Re: Reflowing solder joints
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2018, 05:55:17 AM »
I picked this up about 2 months ago with the intention to recap it.  Older direct drive turntables have IC's that are hard to source, but are stable on their own.  If a cascading failure doesn't take them down, they'll keep going for decades more... so, replace the 35+ year electrolytics that will cause a problem eventually. 
There are several vintage turntables that are amazingly good quality.  The Pioneer Exclusive  P3 and PL-70, Technics SP10 MK II and III,  top of the line Yamaha, Kenwood,  Sony, Denon, and Victor (JVC).  For the very top, you have to pay collector prices, often above $5K.  But for one model down, usually the price falls rapidly. 
The Victor TT-101 prices start around $2500 and go up.  The TT-81 has a slightly less complex control, but still top notch, and usually go for around $500-$600.  Technics SP10 MkIII sell for $7500, but the one model older MKII can be had around $1k.  Pioneer P3 exclusives go for over $5K since they hit the market about as often as Haley's Comet comes around. 

The steal (knowledge for Audio Nervosa members only!) is the JVC QL-F6.  This has a very sophisticated motor (probably second only to the Victor TT-101 within the JVC line), and a pretty good tonearm, but it is an automatic at which audiophools turn up their noses.  These can still be had for $200.  It will hold speed better than nearly any belt drive, and rival most of the best of the direct drives... but it has a cheap and crappy plinth that need lots of added mass.  But the word is getting out, as I see prices on these getting higher.
There are lots of other types of excellent vintage turntables... the LInns, Empires, Garrards, and Thorens.  All can offer very high end performance when in good working order. 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 06:15:29 AM by S Clark »
TT- Technics , Vyger  / Quintet Blue, Dyna 20x2, Blackbird
Phono pre- Dodd, , Jolida
Cables- Bolder, Wywires, TWL,
Speakers- LS-9, X-Static/GR-servo
Pre-Dodd
Amp- Moscode, Dodd, Folsom
P.I. Audio diffusers
DIY corner traps

Offline jimbones

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Re: Reflowing solder joints
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2018, 08:00:29 AM »
Since this is about soldering can anyone provide advice on soldering with cardas silver solder. I never seem to have much luck with it.  Maybe my temperature is too low or too high
Modwright LS100, Wells Audio Innamorata Pwr, VPI Classic II/BenzMicro Glider, Lambda Legend OB Speakers,  Auralic Vega DAC, Emotiva ERC-3,Lumin D1, MIT, WireWorld, Wywires, Shunyata, PS Audio, TWL

Offline S Clark

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Re: Reflowing solder joints
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2018, 08:29:08 AM »
Since this is about soldering can anyone provide advice on soldering with cardas silver solder. I never seem to have much luck with it.  Maybe my temperature is too low or too high
Never used it for anything other than plumbing.  What temp are you using?  It needs to be really hot IIRC.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 09:04:15 AM by S Clark »
TT- Technics , Vyger  / Quintet Blue, Dyna 20x2, Blackbird
Phono pre- Dodd, , Jolida
Cables- Bolder, Wywires, TWL,
Speakers- LS-9, X-Static/GR-servo
Pre-Dodd
Amp- Moscode, Dodd, Folsom
P.I. Audio diffusers
DIY corner traps

Offline Nick B

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Re: Reflowing solder joints
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2018, 09:34:31 AM »
I picked this up about 2 months ago with the intention to recap it.  Older direct drive turntables have IC's that are hard to source, but are stable on their own.  If a cascading failure doesn't take them down, they'll keep going for decades more... so, replace the 35+ year electrolytics that will cause a problem eventually. 
There are several vintage turntables that are amazingly good quality.  The Pioneer Exclusive  P3 and PL-70, Technics SP10 MK II and III,  top of the line Yamaha, Kenwood,  Sony, Denon, and Victor (JVC).  For the very top, you have to pay collector prices, often above $5K.  But for one model down, usually the price falls rapidly. 
The Victor TT-101 prices start around $2500 and go up.  The TT-81 has a slightly less complex control, but still top notch, and usually go for around $500-$600.  Technics SP10 MkIII sell for $7500, but the one model older MKII can be had around $1k.  Pioneer P3 exclusives go for over $5K since they hit the market about as often as Haley's Comet comes around. 

The steal (knowledge for Audio Nervosa members only!) is the JVC QL-F6.  This has a very sophisticated motor (probably second only to the Victor TT-101 within the JVC line), and a pretty good tonearm, but it is an automatic at which audiophools turn up their noses.  These can still be had for $200.  It will hold speed better than nearly any belt drive, and rival most of the best of the direct drives... but it has a cheap and crappy plinth that need lots of added mass.  But the word is getting out, as I see prices on these getting higher.
There are lots of other types of excellent vintage turntables... the LInns, Empires, Garrards, and Thorens.  All can offer very high end performance when in good working order.

That is quite the steal. I’m checking it out on Google search
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline steve

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Re: Reflowing solder joints
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2018, 05:28:05 PM »
Working on an old Victor TT with a blown fuse- so I decided to replacing caps hoping that a job that needed to be done will also solve the problem.  I've read that it's a good idea to reflow solder joints, so I did just that while waiting for caps to arrive.  Then I saw that one YouTube guy thinks all old solder should be removed.  Have I screwed up? When a joint needed extra, I simply added a touch of Cardas eutechtic and held it molten for an extra half second or so.  I'm comfortable with an iron, but mostly with new projects, not on old stuff.  Any comments are appreciated.

Hi S Clark,

I am glad you use Eutectic solder, preferably quad. This is much stronger, more sonically accurate than other solders.
From that aspect, I would clean off the old. However, cleaning off the old will alter the sonics, a consideration, but then the parts are most likely out of tolerance anyway.

I have performed a lot of special listening tests of projects, and with superior parts have found the quad Eutectic solder the most accurate/natural. (Tri tends to grow tentacles over time, that tend to short out to other wires/foils.)

Cheers and good luck on your project S.

steve

I found out that the board is strictly for motor control. As such, the type of solder won't affect the audio quality.

Still find it hard to believe that the entire board, with 8 adjustments is strictly for motor control. But if it works, don't knock it.

cheers

steve
Steve Sammet (retired, but manufacturing "V" ics again)

SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio 25 W Triode Reference Amplifier
Test Spkrs
"V" ICs
10 parallel 18 ga. speaker wires

Offline S Clark

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Re: Reflowing solder joints
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2019, 04:01:05 PM »
Thought I'd post a photo of how this turned out.  The pod, the 16 sided plinth and the table... if I can link a photo.


The plinth is maple and African walnut and is sitting on Herbie's grunge buster dots.  The pod is a branch of mesquite from the woodpile glued to a hefty chunk of lead. The lead is sitting on cork with Herbie's fat dots under it.  The 10" Jelco has a Sumiko Blackbird with a Soundsmith cantilever and stylus. 
Don't know if I needed to but the Victor TT-81 is on 100V, since it was a Japanese unit.  It's rock solid.  A second pod designed by our own Dave E will be appearing with it soon.  I'm really looking forward to it. 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 04:38:55 PM by S Clark »
TT- Technics , Vyger  / Quintet Blue, Dyna 20x2, Blackbird
Phono pre- Dodd, , Jolida
Cables- Bolder, Wywires, TWL,
Speakers- LS-9, X-Static/GR-servo
Pre-Dodd
Amp- Moscode, Dodd, Folsom
P.I. Audio diffusers
DIY corner traps

Offline Folsom

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Re: Reflowing solder joints
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2019, 05:36:29 PM »
I'm jealous. Mine still varies in speed.