Author Topic: thinking of trying new speakers...  (Read 1106 times)

Offline jhrlrd

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thinking of trying new speakers...
« on: July 26, 2018, 11:06:16 PM »
...so I tried acoustic Zen adagios, very nice, but really just a step sideways from the modded Thiels.
Why is it that the so-called "better" speakers are big?  is it due to physical limitations for moving enough air?

What is the best MID-sized floor stander you've ever heard?
 I would like it to be no bigger than the Adagios, roughly 45"H X 10"W.

Offline richidoo

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Re: thinking of trying new speakers...
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2018, 09:35:48 AM »
Large diaphragms grip the air better than smaller diaphragms at the same frequency and displacement. Technically, it's called higher acoustic impedance. It's a better connection, easier energy transfer, between the hard cone and the soft air. Higher acoustic impedance yields the benefits of higher efficiency, lower extension and better tonal detail.

One of the best benefits of larger bass drivers is that they can grip the air better even at lower velocity, so it plays lower frequency, more detail, sounds satisfying even at much lower SPL. So you can play music late at night while the house is asleep and not disturb anyone, while the speakers still have full and satisfying bass. Your wife might fear that the large speakers will play louder than ever before (impossible!) but actually you will listen at lower volumes because it's easier to listen softer, as long as you can fully hear the bass and the detail, softer is better.

A 10" baffle width limits you to 8" bass drivers. A large room might find that too small, but normal size rooms or a large bedroom that should be OK. I personally like bigger, but it does take some time and practice to become as perverted as me.

The most important thing to know is that the bass woofer size must be in proper proportion to the room volume. If the woofer is too big (like 15" in a small bedroom) then you will have too much bass and there's nothing you can do to fix it. If the woofers are too small (like 6.5" in a large family room) then you can never have enough bass, you will never be satisfied with your music and you will have to resort to audiophilism to justify your high end "investment."  :-P

So get the right size woofers for your room. You should be able to listen to the music that you like with great satisfaction at very low volume at any time of the night without disturbing your family, and loud enough in daytime to feel the full excitement the music enables. The right size woofer will allow both.

For what size room are these new speakers destined?

PS, Adagios are one of the best midsize speakers I've heard. :) If that's not enough bass for you then you need 12" or bigger woofers.

Offline jhrlrd

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Re: thinking of trying new speakers...
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2018, 10:22:53 AM »
Thanks Rich for the great response.
That is one of my main criteria, the ability to play the whole frequency spectrum, balanced, at low levels.
So far, I've been lucky that the only 2 speakers I've used do this well.
My long-time reference, the Thiels, were built in 1991, so I assume technology both in design and drivers, have come a long way.
There must be something out there now that can do what the Thiels do, yet have an increased sense of soundstage, depth and detail.

The room is a little narrow, 10'8", but is 26' long, playing into an open end, so it's not small, say medium.

I suppose another alternative is to re-do the crossovers in the Adagios, like I did with the Thiels.

I looked at the YG Carmels, and read that they don't perform well at low volume.
same with the marten Django L.
I listened to the PMC fact.8 (not in my room however) and thought they were thin sounding and over priced....but i have 2 subs.

Offline Jack

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Re: thinking of trying new speakers...
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2018, 10:54:24 AM »
Price range?
JVC QL-Y7 with Denon DL-301 Mk II
Vista Phono II
Nuprime CDT-8
PS Audio BHK preamp
BHK 250
Directstream DAC w/Bridge II
Teac NT-505
Verity Audio Otello
(2) Rythmik F12SE
TWL PC's and SC
Dueland IC's
Equi=Core 1800
Uberbuss

Offline jhrlrd

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Re: thinking of trying new speakers...
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2018, 11:04:02 AM »
around $8k used

Offline richidoo

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Re: thinking of trying new speakers...
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2018, 12:19:49 PM »
Legacy Focus SE are available used for less than that. Legacy Signature SE is available new for less than that. Legacy has always been voiced for musical satisfaction, preferring generally larger drivers for a given frequency band. I sold my old Legacys long ago, looking for more resolution like you. But I missed the musicality and the reliable listening satisfaction no matter what genre or time of day, or mood I was in, it always left me smiling. They updated all the drivers to modern standards so I bought another set, very glad I did, speakers are no long an issue for me. I like to recommend Legacys but it would be good to hear them first. I learned yesterday that they will be exhibiting at Capital Audio Fest this year, after not appearing there last year.

10 foot width is challenging. You'll want to damp or diffuse the side reflections thoroughly, so you can place the speakers as close to side walls as possible. I like the binary amplitude diffusion type treatments, available from RPG and GIK. But pure absorption would be fine.

Since you already have subs, perhaps you can improve their integration with the speakers to achieve what you desire, rather than get new speakers. You'd need to block the reflex port on the main speakers, then setup the crossover between sub and mains for flat FR and phase. Subs must be same distance or closer to your ears, not behind the mains.

Are the Thiels/Adagios adequate from 100Hz upward, or are you seeking the modern sonic fireworks of modern drivers?

Offline jhrlrd

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Re: thinking of trying new speakers...
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2018, 01:21:15 PM »
The room does have the sidewalls and back wall dampened.
the Thiels/Adagios are good from 100hz and up and for that matter below 100hz too.
Don't need the fireworks impact as far as loud large passages are concerned.
although it is nice to have them portay dynamics even at low levels, which is mostly how I listen.

Offline Jack

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Re: thinking of trying new speakers...
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2018, 02:22:05 PM »
Klaus' Lorelei and Liquid are also options to consider and new under your stated price.
JVC QL-Y7 with Denon DL-301 Mk II
Vista Phono II
Nuprime CDT-8
PS Audio BHK preamp
BHK 250
Directstream DAC w/Bridge II
Teac NT-505
Verity Audio Otello
(2) Rythmik F12SE
TWL PC's and SC
Dueland IC's
Equi=Core 1800
Uberbuss

Offline jhrlrd

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Re: thinking of trying new speakers...
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2018, 02:35:08 PM »
thanks jack, I will check them out

Offline jhrlrd

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Re: thinking of trying new speakers...
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2018, 03:23:40 PM »
Jack, do you know the dimensions of the Liquids?
Their website doesn't list them yet

Offline richidoo

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Re: thinking of trying new speakers...
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2018, 03:40:10 PM »
yeah, I meant the hyper detail of ribbons, beryllium, rigid mid cone, neo motors, high rez files, etc.

Offline Jack

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Re: thinking of trying new speakers...
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2018, 03:52:28 PM »
Check out this thread on AC.  In post six it gives the dimensions and shows them side by side with the Lorelei.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134874.0

I own a pair of Lorelei's and they meet your criteria of frequency range and size.  According to owners of both the Liquids are even better.
JVC QL-Y7 with Denon DL-301 Mk II
Vista Phono II
Nuprime CDT-8
PS Audio BHK preamp
BHK 250
Directstream DAC w/Bridge II
Teac NT-505
Verity Audio Otello
(2) Rythmik F12SE
TWL PC's and SC
Dueland IC's
Equi=Core 1800
Uberbuss

Offline tmazz

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Re: thinking of trying new speakers...
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2018, 03:59:34 PM »
If you liked the Thiel 2.2s I would check out the later iterations. The 2.4s are worlds ahead of the 2.2s and are 41.4" H x 11" wide.

I has 3.5s for years and then stepped up to CS-6s. Unfortunately I ended up moving a few years ago and the 6s are just too large for the room I have to deal with right now.

I really miss them.....  :cry:
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline Jack

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Re: thinking of trying new speakers...
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2018, 04:08:25 PM »
I am going to be crating up a mint pair of Nola KO's if they would be of any interest to you.  Well under your budget range and should fit your size requirements.  They measure -6 db in my room at 25hz so certainly full range.  I just got the itch to change, again.
JVC QL-Y7 with Denon DL-301 Mk II
Vista Phono II
Nuprime CDT-8
PS Audio BHK preamp
BHK 250
Directstream DAC w/Bridge II
Teac NT-505
Verity Audio Otello
(2) Rythmik F12SE
TWL PC's and SC
Dueland IC's
Equi=Core 1800
Uberbuss

Offline mresseguie

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Re: thinking of trying new speakers...
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2018, 07:14:15 PM »
jhrird,

Are you familiar with Daedalus Audio? There are currently three pairs (I think) of used Daedalus speakers for sale on Audio Circle. I believe two pairs are Ulysses and one pair is Argos. They're all full range floor standers. [I own a pair of Daedalus Apollos that are above your budget. Prior to hearing (and falling for) the Apollos, I very nearly bought jriggy's Argos speakers.]   
 http://www.daedalusaudio.com/products.html

One of the pairs of Ulysses is being sold by Gregfisk on behalf of a recently deceased AC member's wife. He's asking a very reasonable $6995.
Here are the specs for the Ulysses:
High Frequency (X 2)   1" Eton Dome tweeters oriented as point source
Mid-range (X 2)   5" custom modified Fostex full range loudspeaker
Low Frequency (X 2)   8" Daedalus Audio Dynamic Loudspeaker
Frequency Response   28 to 24kHZ
Sensitivity   97.5 db 1w/1m
Continuous Power Rating   
350 watts (peak power 600 watts +)
recommended power 5- 300 watts

Impedance   6 ohms (virtually flat / mates with amps 4-16ohms)
Tweeter Switch   0db / +0.5db / - 0.5db
Enclosure Type   Tuned Port Aperiodic Vent (Rear)
Enclosure Material   Solid Hardwood with Dovetail Joints  1 1/4" thick Baltic Birch & Solid Walnut baffle & back, bracing material - eastern white maple
Cabinet Finish   Hand-rubbed Oil Varnish Finish
Cardas Binding Posts   Poprietary hand braided internal wiring
Dimensions (H"xW"xD")   49" x 11" x 16"
Weight   Approx. 108 lbs. each
Warrranty   5 years

The Argos are smaller speakers but still play down to 28Hz.

Argos specs:
High Frequency (X 2)   1" Eton Dome tweeters offset angled
Mid-range (X 1)   5" custom modified Fostex full range loudspeaker
Low Frequency (X 2)   8" Daedalus Audio Dynamic Loudspeaker
Frequency Response   28 to 24kHZ
Sensitivity   97.5 db 1w/1m
Continuous Power Rating   
350 watts (peak power 600 watts +)
recommended power 5- 300 watts

Impedance   6 ohms (virtually flat / mates with amps 4-16ohms)
Tweeter Switch   0db / +0.5db / - 0.5db
Enclosure Type   Tuned Port Aperiodic Vent (Rear)
Enclosure Material   Solid Hardwood with Dovetail Joints
1 1/4" thick Baltic Birch & Solid Walnut baffle & back
bracing material - eastern white maple
Cabinet Finish   Hand-rubbed Oil Varnish Finish
Cardas Binding Posts   Poprietary hand braided internal wiring
Dimensions (H"xW"xD")   46.5" x 11" x 16"
Weight   Approx. 101 lbs. each
Warrranty   5 years

Michael
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 07:17:41 PM by mresseguie »
Daedalus Audio Apollos Fritz Loudspeakers LS/5-R
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