Author Topic: what does pressurizing a room mean  (Read 2509 times)

Offline Nick B

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what does pressurizing a room mean
« on: February 28, 2018, 12:09:53 PM »
Some of you have been aware Iíve been looking for new/used speakers for over three months. As Iíve done a lot of reading regarding speakers, Iíve come across this term a number of times. Iíd appreciate an explanation of what that term means. Thanks,
Nick
PS as it fits in with this post, i wanted to mention that I have abandoned my pursuit of full range single driver speakers
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2018, 01:59:26 PM »
In my experience, most of the time room pressurization occurs when one has standing waves in a room. These are areas of high sound pressure levels in the bass frequencies. There are also corresponding areas of low pressure as well.
 When you are in or near a standing wave zone you can frequently feel the sound waves across your entire body which is a function of the bass wave length being reproduced. 32Hz is the threshold of both feeling and hearing the bass frequencies. As the bass frequencies go lower than 32Hz we predominately feel the bass rather than sense a discrete pitch as we can at higher frequencies. 
 Dipole sub-woofers  generally don't pressurize a room the way box type sub-woofer does. They also get less of the benefits of room reinforcement in the bass frequencies when compared to box type subs. More power is also generally required and servo control is mandatory in order for this design to function properly.
 When I attended symphonic concerts there was no room pressurization, there was the sensation of impact on my body and to my chest cavity from the tympani drums and the big bass drum. On the other hand I have experienced room pressurization or the sensation of bass being felt on my entire body from pipe organ performances. You will notice that I have avoided characterizing the bass behavior of amplified music which can being wildly variable. Even live jazz performances may be hard to characterize if amplification is present.
 It may come down to equalization and how far the knob was turned during any given performance.
Scotty
 Disclaimer, I have a bass problem, and I have no intention of enrolling in a 12 step program.

Offline rollo

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2018, 12:21:03 PM »
   Scotty covered it all. Just add volume to the mix. The more volume the more pressure. Nick please consider the location of where speaker to be chosen must be positioned in your room.
   Without proper placement no speaker will perform at its best period. Will they be close to front wall ? Side walls ? Is there a TV in the middle ? Rack in between ? Those items will affect your choice big time.
   Look at Fritz Carrera. On a budget ELAC. Stand mounted designs go a long way with obstacles as mentioned.


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Offline Nick B

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2018, 09:48:11 PM »
Although I enjoy a room with excellent bass response, itís not possible in my situation and Iím not a bass hound anyway. I very much enjoyed what the SP Tech gave me .... extension into the 30s. As to
speaker placement, max 2í from left sidewall and max 3í from front wall. Previous setup was 6-7í apart and listening 11í ft back. Thatís the desired/mandatory setup. It needs to work...few other options.

Have looked at Fritz, GR Research and currently looking at

http://audience-av.com/loudspeakers/1plus1/ with help from                                                      https://rel.net/shop/subwoofers/zero/

http://www.evolutionacoustics.com/loudspeakers/micro-series/microone/

As Iím downsizing and simplifying, nothing heavy or taking up lots of space. Easy to pack and easy to ship......someday.  Budget fluctuates
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline Bill O'Connell

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2018, 08:42:48 PM »
How about the Dynaudio Special Forty ?
Bill O'Connell,
Morningstar Audio/Eastern Electric distributor for North America
847-255-1150
"If your playing more than 3 chords your just showing off"  John Lee Hooker

Offline Nick B

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2018, 09:54:39 PM »
How about the Dynaudio Special Forty ?

Bill,
Thanks for the info. Iíll do some reading on it and check YouTube tonight.
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline doug s.

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2018, 10:20:35 AM »
hi nick,

i'm curious as to what happened w/your "pursuit of full range single driver speakers".  did you try stuff and not like it?  or something else?

i have a few comments regarding the products you linked.  i wouldn't even consider the audience speakers, unless you want desktop-only speakers.  those rel's you linked are not subwoofers, they're woofers.  at that price, you can do far better.  you could actually get a real sub!
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/L12.html

or, get two cheaper subs, for the price of the rel:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=SW305&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xyamaha+SW305.TRS1&_nkw=yamaha+SW305&_sacat=0
(i happen to own a pair of these; seriously decent servo subs, for not a lot of $$$ and, you can use them as speaker stands.)


(what replaced the yst sw305's):
https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-Corporation-America-SW315-Subwoofer/dp/B00009W8XH

or:
https://www.parts-express.com/bic-acoustech-h-100ii-12-powered-subwoofer--303-414
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1200-12-120-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-629
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1500-15-150-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-634

regarding the evolution acoustics', they look like they might be contenders, but at that price, i'd be looking at the boenicke w5se. (1st link is the w5; 2nd is the w5se follow-up):
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/boenicke5/1.html
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/boenicke/1.html

or even the much less expensive kef ls50 actives.  which would be excellent, if you're wanting simplification.  i own a pair of the passives, and they are great, imo; the active's are supposed to be even better.
(one of many stellar reviews):
https://www.whathifi.com/kef/ls50-wireless/review

i would also seriously consider any of the proac monitors - i own a pair of the tablette 8 reference signatures, and they're really quite astonishing, how loud they can go, in a big room - if actively crossed over to subs.  in my ~26x38x8.5 room, crossed over at ~70hz to subs, they'd go as loud as you would ever want.  if not crossed to subs and really cranked, they will bottom out - there's only so much a 4.5" woofer can do, haha!  tone and soundstaging is superb. they've been updated by newer tablette 10 ref sigs, and proac also has other monitors - the response series, and the studio monitor series.  i'd recommend trying any or all of them.  i've heard other older tablettes and response monitors, as well as proac floor-standers, and all were superb.

doug s.

Offline gander

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2018, 12:37:45 PM »
I have been working with Nick a lot on full range drivers and I bought a pair of Planet10 Hi-Fi modified Mark Audio A10PeN drivers A few months back, after not being quite pleased enough with tang band full range drivers. I built my own set of cabinets that are about 5 ft.≥ and are tuned to about 25 Hz. With the 6 1/2 inch Mark Audio drivers there was still not enough sound.
So I put in a pair of Audio Nirvana super 12 ferrite drivers, 12 inch full range drivers I bought years ago and had sitting in boxes.  In my cabinets the speakers have maybe 98 DB to 100 DB sensitivity.  Iím not sure exactly, but the volume setting on my passive preamp has dropped about 15 points for the same amount of volume output with the audio Nirvana drivers.
Now there is plenty of meat on the bone, even more detail, lots of excellent tight bass, and the rest of the good stuff we all look for; and I still am using full range drivers with no crossovers. I wish I had thought of that sooner, But oh well.  Mark audio drivers are  really great for what they are, and the enable process from planet 10 hi-fi makes them sound so much better, but they are more for that type of listener that uses Backhorn cabinets and listens to more intimate music.  But unfortunately in Audio, you donít really know what something sounds like for you until you hear it and decide if that fits for you. We can get all the advice in the world and still have it not work out for us.

 My current system includes an Oppo 103 universal player, audio note 2.1B dac, Tortuga LDR light dependent resistor V25 passive preamp, a Primaluna dialogue 4 amplifier with Psvane KT88 treasure II tubes.  All cables I built myself; Coherent Sound Design power cords, interconnects with my own design incorporating carbon fiber, and speaker wires with carbon fiber. The best sound Iíve heard so far.  But, we are always looking for more arenít we?

 The quest continuesÖ
Oppo 103, SSD drive
GanderWire ultra low capacitance power cords, ICs and speaker cables
Audio Note 2.1B DAC
Tortuga LDR passive pre
Primaluna Dialogue4 Tube, Temple Audio Bantam SS amp
GW speakers w/Audio Nirvana 12Ē Alnico FR drivers

Offline Nick B

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2018, 01:11:54 PM »
hi nick,

i'm curious as to what happened w/your "pursuit of full range single driver speakers".  did you try stuff and not like it?  or something else?

i have a few comments regarding the products you linked.  i wouldn't even consider the audience speakers, unless you want desktop-only speakers.  those rel's you linked are not subwoofers, they're woofers.  at that price, you can do far better.  you could actually get a real sub!
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/L12.html

or, get two cheaper subs, for the price of the rel:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=SW305&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xyamaha+SW305.TRS1&_nkw=yamaha+SW305&_sacat=0
(i happen to own a pair of these; seriously decent servo subs, for not a lot of $$$ and, you can use them as speaker stands.)


(what replaced the yst sw305's):
https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-Corporation-America-SW315-Subwoofer/dp/B00009W8XH

or:
https://www.parts-express.com/bic-acoustech-h-100ii-12-powered-subwoofer--303-414
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1200-12-120-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-629
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1500-15-150-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-634

regarding the evolution acoustics', they look like they might be contenders, but at that price, i'd be looking at the boenicke w5se. (1st link is the w5; 2nd is the w5se follow-up):
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/boenicke5/1.html
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/boenicke/1.html

or even the much less expensive kef ls50 actives.  which would be excellent, if you're wanting simplification.  i own a pair of the passives, and they are great, imo; the active's are supposed to be even better.
(one of many stellar reviews):
https://www.whathifi.com/kef/ls50-wireless/review

i would also seriously consider any of the proac monitors - i own a pair of the tablette 8 reference signatures, and they're really quite astonishing, how loud they can go, in a big room - if actively crossed over to subs.  in my ~26x38x8.5 room, crossed over at ~70hz to subs, they'd go as loud as you would ever want.  if not crossed to subs and really cranked, they will bottom out - there's only so much a 4.5" woofer can do, haha!  tone and soundstaging is superb. they've been updated by newer tablette 10 ref sigs, and proac also has other monitors - the response series, and the studio monitor series.  i'd recommend trying any or all of them.  i've heard other older tablettes and response monitors, as well as proac floor-standers, and all were superb.

doug s.

Hi Doug and thanks for your comprehensive response and ideas.

Iíll give my latest criteria for speakers and a sub
1 a budget reference in sound quality
2 takes up a relatively small footprint in my living room listening area
3 is relatively easy to lift, box and ship (I donít want to rely on a neighbor or friend....)
4 will keep for at least 10 years ...just as my SP Techs that I had for 11 years
5 is $3,500 or less

I will start off by saying that Iím not pursuing single drivers any longer and my sustained exposure to them is the reason. I had a Tang Band W 1808 in an open baffle at my home and it sounded too ďthinĒ
I did not add a sub to help out. I then listened a couple of times at Garyís...aka gander at AN.... and his Mark Audio single drivers didnt do it for me either. I again considered the sound ďthinĒ even though he had them in a large enclosure to help with the bass. I then researched alternatives to come up with the Audience and Evolution which I listed above.  I spoke with the designer at Audience about the 1+1 V2s and asked to speak with a customer who had them. The conversation with that very seasoned audiophile helped a lot as his associated equipment, room size and use of the small REL sub...actually a woofer as you mentioned....were familiar to me. The lure of that Audience bipole design with passives on the side of the cabinets was the potentially really wonderful midrange and Ken,the audiophile, assured me they could fill my listening space. As to the subs, I dont have a need for or want bass thats in the low 20s, a sub that is heavy or awkward to lift and ship at some point.
I found out about the Evolution Acoustic Micro Oneís via the Whatís Best Audio forum....Guys with excellent systems who owned the speakers. Very high praise for these. I spoke with the Evolution distributor and two dealers and hope my email is forwarded to the designer as well. The knock on these for me is that theyre shipped in wooden crates and the shipping weight is about 200 lbs.
i know the associated stands are very heavy to benefit speaker performance, but I really donít want to deal with this stuff. There is a possibility i might be moving in a year or two, so simplicty and convenience are quite important to me.
You mentioned the Boenickes and malloy...aka Paul here...had previously mentioned them. No doubt a wonderful speaker, but new they go nowadays for about $5,500 and maybe more for the se version. By the way, i forgot to mention i can get a very good price on the Micro Ones. So the Boenickes are out of my price range. 
Iíve owned Proac Response 2s If I recall correctly, but that was a long time ago. I will take a look at the Proacs and search re user comments. Iím sure there are lots of wonderful speakers that would work for me, but I am truly looking for something very special. Iíll be following up on this again soon
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline doug s.

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2018, 02:29:14 PM »
Hi Doug and thanks for your comprehensive response and ideas.

Iíll give my latest criteria for speakers and a sub
1 a budget reference in sound quality
2 takes up a relatively small footprint in my living room listening area
3 is relatively easy to lift, box and ship (I donít want to rely on a neighbor or friend....)
4 will keep for at least 10 years ...just as my SP Techs that I had for 11 years
5 is $3,500 or less

I will start off by saying that Iím not pursuing single drivers any longer and my sustained exposure to them is the reason. I had a Tang Band W 1808 in an open baffle at my home and it sounded too ďthinĒ
I did not add a sub to help out. I then listened a couple of times at Garyís...aka gander at AN.... and his Mark Audio single drivers didnt do it for me either. I again considered the sound ďthinĒ even though he had them in a large enclosure to help with the bass. I then researched alternatives to come up with the Audience and Evolution which I listed above.  I spoke with the designer at Audience about the 1+1 V2s and asked to speak with a customer who had them. The conversation with that very seasoned audiophile helped a lot as his associated equipment, room size and use of the small REL sub...actually a woofer as you mentioned....were familiar to me. The lure of that Audience bipole design with passives on the side of the cabinets was the potentially really wonderful midrange and Ken,the audiophile, assured me they could fill my listening space. As to the subs, I dont have a need for or want bass thats in the low 20s, a sub that is heavy or awkward to lift and ship at some point.
I found out about the Evolution Acoustic Micro Oneís via the Whatís Best Audio forum....Guys with excellent systems who owned the speakers. Very high praise for these. I spoke with the Evolution distributor and two dealers and hope my email is forwarded to the designer as well. The knock on these for me is that theyre shipped in wooden crates and the shipping weight is about 200 lbs.
i know the associated stands are very heavy to benefit speaker performance, but I really donít want to deal with this stuff. There is a possibility i might be moving in a year or two, so simplicty and convenience are quite important to me.
You mentioned the Boenickes and malloy...aka Paul here...had previously mentioned them. No doubt a wonderful speaker, but new they go nowadays for about $5,500 and maybe more for the se version. By the way, i forgot to mention i can get a very good price on the Micro Ones. So the Boenickes are out of my price range. 
Iíve owned Proac Response 2s If I recall correctly, but that was a long time ago. I will take a look at the Proacs and search re user comments. Iím sure there are lots of wonderful speakers that would work for me, but I am truly looking for something very special. Iíll be following up on this again soon
Nick
well, the shipping box for my kef ls50's is ~22l x 16h x 14w.  the proac's are triple-boxed (they made a round-trip to latvia), and the packaging is a hair smaller than the kef's.  ;)

and, if you want small packaging, then the boenicke's are the way to go!


re: pricing (and not just the boenicke's) - don't buy new!  especially if you aren't sure what you really want!  and, re: the w5's, it was my understanding that it's the se+ that has the heavy premium; the se is not much more (if any) than the standard iteration.

re: subs, my yamaha's are "20-160hz".  but, in reality, that's -10db down at 20hz.  but, it's still way better than -6db down at 38hz!?!  sorry, but that's simply a total waste of money, imo.  none of the subs i quoted are foundation breakers; neither are they pansies.  and they aren't difficult to move or ship.  from what you're telling me, tho, it sounds like a pair of the 12" dayton audio subs would be perfect - real bass in a smaller room, but not overwhelming.  and <$300 shipped - for a pair! at that price, even buying new wouldn't be a big deal.  not sure why it is you wouldn't want better bass response - it simply means that, at whatever level you're listening to, it will be less distorted.  but, if you're wanting less response, i'd still go w/something like the smaller dayton audio subs.  sorry, i have always thought rel was a rip-off - i had a $1500 rel in my kitchen for a spell, and my yamaha's are at least as good.  that $500 "subwoofer" takes the cake for worthless, imo - if you want less, don't pay more!  ;)
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1000-10-100-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-628
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1000l-10-100-watt-low-profile-powered-subwoofer--300-639

regarding your comment:
"Iím sure there are lots of wonderful speakers that would work for me, but I am truly looking for something very special."
really?  who'd a thunk?  lol!  you and everyone else!  the speakers i mentioned fall into that category, imo.  of course, i haven't heard the boenicke's, but i don't think the hype is misplaced.  of course, if i were wanting to sample w/o a demo, i would only be buying used, so i wouldn't be taking a bath if they turned out not to be my cuppa.

and, one other speaker; i mentioned it before.  i've never heard it, but i heard its bigger brother, which absolutely crushed the ~3 times more expensive salk audio soundscape 8's, imo, which were playing right next store at the caf a few years back.  (and the salk's were in a much better room.)  and at $1350 retail, again, these are not wallet eaters.  and i've seen 'em used for <$1k (i believe i posted a link for a used pair awhile back.)  and yes, if they have the philharmonic audio house sound (dennis murphy design), they will be "something very special".

http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/BMR%20Philharmonitor.html


or a little smaller, but still output to 40hz, and -3db at 45hz:
http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/New%20Philharmonitor.html


ymmv,

doug s.

Offline Nick B

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2018, 04:16:42 PM »
Hi Doug and thanks for your comprehensive response and ideas.

Iíll give my latest criteria for speakers and a sub
1 a budget reference in sound quality
2 takes up a relatively small footprint in my living room listening area
3 is relatively easy to lift, box and ship (I donít want to rely on a neighbor or friend....)
4 will keep for at least 10 years ...just as my SP Techs that I had for 11 years
5 is $3,500 or less

I will start off by saying that Iím not pursuing single drivers any longer and my sustained exposure to them is the reason. I had a Tang Band W 1808 in an open baffle at my home and it sounded too ďthinĒ
I did not add a sub to help out. I then listened a couple of times at Garyís...aka gander at AN.... and his Mark Audio single drivers didnt do it for me either. I again considered the sound ďthinĒ even though he had them in a large enclosure to help with the bass. I then researched alternatives to come up with the Audience and Evolution which I listed above.  I spoke with the designer at Audience about the 1+1 V2s and asked to speak with a customer who had them. The conversation with that very seasoned audiophile helped a lot as his associated equipment, room size and use of the small REL sub...actually a woofer as you mentioned....were familiar to me. The lure of that Audience bipole design with passives on the side of the cabinets was the potentially really wonderful midrange and Ken,the audiophile, assured me they could fill my listening space. As to the subs, I dont have a need for or want bass thats in the low 20s, a sub that is heavy or awkward to lift and ship at some point.
I found out about the Evolution Acoustic Micro Oneís via the Whatís Best Audio forum....Guys with excellent systems who owned the speakers. Very high praise for these. I spoke with the Evolution distributor and two dealers and hope my email is forwarded to the designer as well. The knock on these for me is that theyre shipped in wooden crates and the shipping weight is about 200 lbs.
i know the associated stands are very heavy to benefit speaker performance, but I really donít want to deal with this stuff. There is a possibility i might be moving in a year or two, so simplicty and convenience are quite important to me.
You mentioned the Boenickes and malloy...aka Paul here...had previously mentioned them. No doubt a wonderful speaker, but new they go nowadays for about $5,500 and maybe more for the se version. By the way, i forgot to mention i can get a very good price on the Micro Ones. So the Boenickes are out of my price range. 
Iíve owned Proac Response 2s If I recall correctly, but that was a long time ago. I will take a look at the Proacs and search re user comments. Iím sure there are lots of wonderful speakers that would work for me, but I am truly looking for something very special. Iíll be following up on this again soon
Nick
well, the shipping box for my kef ls50's is ~22l x 16h x 14w.  the proac's are triple-boxed (they made a round-trip to latvia), and the packaging is a hair smaller than the kef's.  ;)

and, if you want small packaging, then the boenicke's are the way to go!


re: pricing (and not just the boenicke's) - don't buy new!  especially if you aren't sure what you really want!  and, re: the w5's, it was my understanding that it's the se+ that has the heavy premium; the se is not much more (if any) than the standard iteration.

re: subs, my yamaha's are "20-160hz".  but, in reality, that's -10db down at 20hz.  but, it's still way better than -6db down at 38hz!?!  sorry, but that's simply a total waste of money, imo.  none of the subs i quoted are foundation breakers; neither are they pansies.  and they aren't difficult to move or ship.  from what you're telling me, tho, it sounds like a pair of the 12" dayton audio subs would be perfect - real bass in a smaller room, but not overwhelming.  and <$300 shipped - for a pair! at that price, even buying new wouldn't be a big deal.  not sure why it is you wouldn't want better bass response - it simply means that, at whatever level you're listening to, it will be less distorted.  but, if you're wanting less response, i'd still go w/something like the smaller dayton audio subs.  sorry, i have always thought rel was a rip-off - i had a $1500 rel in my kitchen for a spell, and my yamaha's are at least as good.  that $500 "subwoofer" takes the cake for worthless, imo - if you want less, don't pay more!  ;)
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1000-10-100-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-628
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1000l-10-100-watt-low-profile-powered-subwoofer--300-639

regarding your comment:
"Iím sure there are lots of wonderful speakers that would work for me, but I am truly looking for something very special."
really?  who'd a thunk?  lol!  you and everyone else!  the speakers i mentioned fall into that category, imo.  of course, i haven't heard the boenicke's, but i don't think the hype is misplaced.  of course, if i were wanting to sample w/o a demo, i would only be buying used, so i wouldn't be taking a bath if they turned out not to be my cuppa.

and, one other speaker; i mentioned it before.  i've never heard it, but i heard its bigger brother, which absolutely crushed the ~3 times more expensive salk audio soundscape 8's, imo, which were playing right next store at the caf a few years back.  (and the salk's were in a much better room.)  and at $1350 retail, again, these are not wallet eaters.  and i've seen 'em used for <$1k (i believe i posted a link for a used pair awhile back.)  and yes, if they have the philharmonic audio house sound (dennis murphy design), they will be "something very special".

http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/BMR%20Philharmonitor.html


or a little smaller, but still output to 40hz, and -3db at 45hz:
http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/New%20Philharmonitor.html


ymmv,

doug s.

Some valid points, Doug. I get your logic for the most part. Regarding audio gear, youíve probably heard and have had in your home, way more stuff than i have. Iíve been at it since the late 70s and early 80s, but ive owned maybe 10 amps and 10 speakers over the years. Heard many, many more at shows and friends, but it's all pretty useless unless I live with them in my home.

I appreciate your thoughts and take that into account. Rather than proceed as I did with the Nolas and Tang Bands and Mark Audios, Iíve decided to take a different route this time in my approach and Iím happy the way itís going. Interesting that you mentioned the Philharmonitors. I may have bought these already, but Dennis Murphy never got back to me when I left a voice mail or sent an email. Same for Louis at Omega over at Audio Circle. Vendors, if you want me to buy, give me a couple of minutes of your time. Iíve encountered that a fair amount. Oh, yeah, same for the SOtM guy. No response to my inquiry.
I dont need real low bass. I donít need to ďfeelĒ the bass. The Yamahas you mentioned are too big. Donít want an eBay special thats dinged up. Im happy with an 8 or 10Ē driver for bass. I dont listen to much at all that needs it. There are maybe 4-5 instruments that go that low. Why not have subs that go real low...because theyre usually too big, too heavy and maybe too ugly. I guess whatís easy to move is relative to if the guy has had back surgery or not.....
Regarding the Boenickes, they may really be great. Havent checked the specs recently, but iirc they get into the 50s, so Iíd still need a sub or woofer supplementation. As to me wanting something special....that still goes ...lol....or not. This equipment is part of my home like fine paintings or works of art. Thats what I want. My wifeís wishes are part of the equation as well.
In addition to getting a pair of speakers, Iíll have to factor in efficiency as well as my hefty McCormack amp will be out the door as well to be replaced by a smaller, lighter amp.
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline doug s.

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2018, 04:48:23 PM »
hey - don't get me wrong - i was only lol'ing  because most anyone on these forums is wanting that "something special".  i still daydream about that "perfect speaker"...   :thumb:

dennis murphy is typically swamped - i'd give him another shot.

check out srajan ebaen's take on the boenicke 5se's - he had them in a positively huge room and said subs were optional. (his follow-up review of the links i posted)  and, it's pretty hard to out-do them if you're wanting something cool looking in your home.

re: amps, have you checked out the mivera audio thread on mike's new ice amp, on that "other" forum?  way high power, way small amp, not too expensive, either; even for his all-out effort.

re: subs, check out the dayton audio subs i linked - not huge by any means - just half-decent bass, is all.  ;)

re: back surgery; i had chronic back pain, pretty-much every single day, for more than 10 years due to a slipped disc  once a year or so, it would go out, and i'd be incapacitated for a few days.  then i discovered inversion tables; in three weeks, the pain was gone.  i've been pretty-much pain free for many years, now.

doug s.

Offline Nick B

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2018, 05:37:36 PM »
hey - don't get me wrong - i was only lol'ing  because most anyone on these forums is wanting that "something special".  i still daydream about that "perfect speaker"...   :thumb:

dennis murphy is typically swamped - i'd give him another shot.

check out srajan ebaen's take on the boenicke 5se's - he had them in a positively huge room and said subs were optional. (his follow-up review of the links i posted)  and, it's pretty hard to out-do them if you're wanting something cool looking in your home.

re: amps, have you checked out the mivera audio thread on mike's new ice amp, on that "other" forum?  way high power, way small amp, not too expensive, either; even for his all-out effort.

re: subs, check out the dayton audio subs i linked - not huge by any means - just half-decent bass, is all.  ;)

re: back surgery; i had chronic back pain, pretty-much every single day, for more than 10 years due to a slipped disc  once a year or so, it would go out, and i'd be incapacitated for a few days.  then i discovered inversion tables; in three weeks, the pain was gone.  i've been pretty-much pain free for many years, now.

doug s.

So you havenít found that perfect speaker either..... Yes, I understand  :lol: I will look at the Boenicke SEs.....and used would be the only choice.  Dont want any sub if I donít need it....and maybe Iíll give Dennis another try. I wanted your thoughts on subs again. In my situation where I value small and compact and lightweight, would two smaller subs work as well as one larger one?...it would be much easier for me.
I just  called rel and the TZero isnt enough for me and the 7i was recommended which is an 8Ē front firing and a passive 10Ē downfiring. Its too much $$ and again I want a smaller footprint.
I have been following the Mivera thread and he has quite a following ďover thereĒ   Although i cant remember exact pricing, i get the feeling its more than i want to spend as Jeremy...folsom....
has an amp that many rave about including Dave aka Mr Uber whose opinion i quite value.
Plus folsom just came out with another more powerful design. He mentioned it here on the forum.  I didnt order the boards as Iím not much the diyer and I wanted Daveís opinion as well. So amp wise, I think there are some great options for me.
Regarding my back, its fused and Iím doing pretty good, but I want to be careful as well
Oh, and Iíll check out Dayton again
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline doug s.

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2018, 09:44:59 PM »
in general, i think it's always better to have stereo subs than mono.  for several reasons.  when you sum channels to mono, you can lose some info due to cancellation of frequencies.  even for low frequencies, stereo soundstaging is impacted.  distortion is reduced at any given spl with double the drivers. room loading is almost always smoother and easier to set up w/two subs vs one.

now regarding powered subs, another thing to look at is the on-board x-over.  it would be preferable to have a 24db/octave slope, imo - less overlap w/the main drivers.  i noticed the dayton audio subs are only 12db/octave, but they are extremely inexpensive for the output.  it might be worth it spending more (the same as the rel "woofers") to get the rythmik L12 - this is a serious little sub; not too big or heavy, at ~14x14x15.5 & under 60 lbs.

there are other less expensive subs that advertise 24db/octave x-overs - a few of the klipsch models (some don't say what they  are), and these i found on amazon - 10/12/15"; down or forward firing:
https://www.amazon.com/Theater-Solutions-SUB15F-Powered-Subwoofer/dp/B005EZ0VIW/ref=sr_1_13?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1520311655&sr=1-13&keywords="Theater%2BSolutions"%2Bsub&th=1
https://www.amazon.com/Theater-Solutions-SUB15D-Powered-Subwoofer/dp/B005EYTB3E/ref=sr_1_15?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1520311655&sr=1-15&keywords="Theater%2BSolutions"%2Bsub&th=1

and hsu makes a couple of relatively inexpensive subs - $400 and $540, but i suspect these would be too big for what you want.

doug s.

Offline doug s.

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2018, 09:13:57 AM »
oh, and regarding amps, mivera initially offered a basic amp w/options for ~$800; diy.  now, a standard upgraded amp is ~$1500, and a full-tilt model is ~$1800.  yes, expensive, but it has build quality and componentry better than 5-figure competition, even on the standard amp.  and, huge power.  there's a coupla 1200AS2 based amps out there that are about the same price as mivera's, but the case and componentry is nowhere close to even the standard $1500 model; it's not even up to the original $800 diy amp's standards.

https://www.miveraaudio.com/
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=204.0

re: the folsom 7297 amp, i've bought two kits; just waiting to hive income flow again, to populate them as i want and build them out.  the research's has been done.  yes, considerably less money than the mivera's, but low power as well.  the new folsom amp kit coming out is higher power, (60wpc/120wpc - 8/4 ohms), but still nothing compared to the mivera's.  and, if you don't want to diy, i am certain you could find folk willing to build it for you for a nominal fee.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/319331-folsom-ec7293-battery-solarcell-powered-feedback-60-120w.html

doug s.