Author Topic: GROUNDING  (Read 1894 times)

Offline rollo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 5403
  • Rollo Audio - Home demo the only way to know
Re: GROUNDING
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2018, 08:59:07 AM »
  It appears to me there is noise on the ground. Lifting such eliminates such, no ? Yes ?


charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm - Aqua Acoustic Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm Speakers - PI Audio Uberbuss - Triode Wire Labs- Kuzma - Furutech - Audio Hungry Qualiton - Fritz Carrera speakers -Gigawatt-Arion

Offline KLH007

  • Seeking Help
  • **
  • Posts: 66
Re: GROUNDING
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2018, 06:23:36 PM »
Here is a link to a different grounding technique;  https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/gutwire-ultimate-grounding-cable

Offline HAL

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 602
  • Audio Mad Scientist
    • Hollis Audio Labs
Re: GROUNDING
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2018, 05:07:56 AM »
I can see that working for a 2-wire plug on the gear, but if it is already a 3-wire, watch out for ground loop hum. 

Offline dBe

  • Certifiable
  • ***
  • Posts: 203
Re: GROUNDING
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2018, 08:45:18 PM »
I totally get this.  Unfortunately for the OCD riddled amongst us absolute SQ occasionally runs askance of the best intentions of those that would protect us. 

Liberty!  :thumb:

But, how does safety ruin SQ?
Grounded chassis need not even be in the circuit.
Indeed.  However, most pieces of audio gear are not double insulated and therefore removed from the AC ground..  Problem is that almost gear has a ground reference that is connected to electrical ground.  This connection is then connected to the power supply and then referenced to the power supply ground plane and then raises all kinds of hell with analog and digital grounds.

Analog ground plane noise is relatively easy to address, but most manufacturers are oblivious to thus in the consumer audio realm.  Oddly enough many of the high end builders overlook this noise source and expect a very stiff power supply to take care of the noise through common mode suppression done by filters in the PS.  Sometimes this works.  Often it does not because the bean counters don't want to spend the extra $$$ to take care of it.

Differential noise is different animal and requires a lot more to treat it.

Noise of all types suck. It moves us just that much more from the playback and reality.

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11136
Re: GROUNDING
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2018, 09:44:48 AM »
We're singing from the same hymnal just on different pages.  :)

Engineering is hard. There are a lot of non-engineers in our hobby designing electronic components without the skill to make them sound good and be quiet. Indeed, if the component has poorly designed ground circuits, sometimes lifting the chassis ground will help quiet it down.

But my whole point is that if that's the case, the designer just isn't ready for this game, and his audio circuit probably has similarly poor design choices and you could do better by upgrading to a better designed component that is quiet and probably sounds better, without the ground lift.

Offline rollo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 5403
  • Rollo Audio - Home demo the only way to know
Re: GROUNDING
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2018, 11:44:15 AM »
We're singing from the same hymnal just on different pages.  :)

Engineering is hard. There are a lot of non-engineers in our hobby designing electronic components without the skill to make them sound good and be quiet. Indeed, if the component has poorly designed ground circuits, sometimes lifting the chassis ground will help quiet it down.

But my whole point is that if that's the case, the designer just isn't ready for this game, and his audio circuit probably has similarly poor design choices and you could do better by upgrading to a better designed component that is quiet and probably sounds better, without the ground lift.

  Richidoo I agree that good design is critical in reducing noise. However some noise does get in regardless. So why not cut the noise off at the source instead of designing the "supply of supplies" ? Having both working for you cannot hurt.


charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm - Aqua Acoustic Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm Speakers - PI Audio Uberbuss - Triode Wire Labs- Kuzma - Furutech - Audio Hungry Qualiton - Fritz Carrera speakers -Gigawatt-Arion

Offline doug s.

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 369
Re: GROUNDING
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2018, 08:05:43 PM »
this may or may not be relevant, but maybe someone can help me out anyway.  i have two relatively old pieces of gear - alchemist kraken apd8 mkii class a amp and matching apd7 mki w/mkii power supply (and faceplate) preamp. (info here; nice gear, actually: http://www.alchemisthifi.info/ranges/kraken/kraken_index.htm )

anyway, last year, i started using them for the first time in more than 10 years.  i'd never had any problems w/them whatsoever prior.  now, about 1/3 of the time they're running, the outboard transformers hum, and nothing i have done seems to help (or hurt) the problem.  i've tried all manner of grounding, ungrounding, power treatment, unplugging all sources, tightening the screws holding the toroids, etc.)  it's totally random and intermittent.  sometimes they will go several days w/o humming.  sometimes the p/s hums for the amp and not the preamp, and sometimes vice versa.  they still sound great, btw...

thanks,

doug s.

Offline HAL

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 602
  • Audio Mad Scientist
    • Hollis Audio Labs
Re: GROUNDING
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2018, 05:03:03 AM »
Possibly DC on the AC line. 

Had that problem with my toroidal power transformers in amps.  AC in the house had 6% THD from corroded contacts on the meter base.  Power company came out after showing them the measurements, found the problem and the AC line went back to 2%THD and no hum.  The meter does spectral analysis of the AC line and shows the DC component.  It was due to the distortion generation.

Lots of companies make DC blockers for the AC line.  Dave was thinking about building one as well at one point.

Offline doug s.

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 369
Re: GROUNDING
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2018, 07:32:33 AM »
so, this could be intermittent?  can i afford the device needed to measure the ac line?  :mrgreen:

thanks,

doug
Possibly DC on the AC line. 

Had that problem with my toroidal power transformers in amps.  AC in the house had 6% THD from corroded contacts on the meter base.  Power company came out after showing them the measurements, found the problem and the AC line went back to 2%THD and no hum.  The meter does spectral analysis of the AC line and shows the DC component.  It was due to the distortion generation.

Lots of companies make DC blockers for the AC line.  Dave was thinking about building one as well at one point.

Offline rollo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 5403
  • Rollo Audio - Home demo the only way to know
Re: GROUNDING
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2018, 08:54:56 AM »
   The house ground like mine after 50 years of service just needed a new connection at both ends. Mine is connected to cold wter pipe so an easy task. If using a rod for 30+ years get it redone. Quiet is what quiet does.


charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm - Aqua Acoustic Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm Speakers - PI Audio Uberbuss - Triode Wire Labs- Kuzma - Furutech - Audio Hungry Qualiton - Fritz Carrera speakers -Gigawatt-Arion