Author Topic: help for my Tang Band 8 inch W8-1808 single drivers  (Read 1079 times)

Offline Nick B

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help for my Tang Band 8 inch W8-1808 single drivers
« on: November 10, 2017, 06:19:39 PM »
Thereís another thread regarding my single driver quest. Right now with less than 20 hours, the Tang Bands sound a bit thin. Iíve heard them broken in at a friends house and they did sound wonderful. There was sufficient bass for me. My reference for bass is simply Jennifer Warnes song Way Down Deep. I donít listen to pipe organ etc. The TBs were in a box rather than an open baffle that Iím experimenting with. Assuming that the thin sound remains, I would like to explore other options.

Would it be possible to add a 10 inch driver to the same enclosure, arrive at a fixed crossover point and have them driven by one amp?

Iím looking for simplicity. No amps in each cabinet driving the subs, no extra wires, no additional weight. My current speakers are 65 lbs and I donít want to approach that
Thanks,
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
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Graham 1.5 T tonearm
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PI Audio Uber
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Offline tmazz

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Re: help for my Tang Band 8 inch W8-1808 single drivers
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2017, 09:28:18 PM »
Rather than a full xover what about trying to figure out where the current drivers are rolling off and then just build a lpw pass filter to bring in the woofers a a point that would fill in whats missing. That  would feed the full signal to the Tang Bands, thus maintainig the intergitry of the single driver sound while at the same time giving them a little help on the lower frequency range you feel is a bit deficient in the OB configuration

Just a thought.........
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Offline richidoo

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Re: help for my Tang Band 8 inch W8-1808 single drivers
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2017, 07:47:10 AM »
I assume you are running the speaker connected directly to your amp. You will need to add 3-4dB of baffle step compensation to boost the bass, and probably impedance correction to contour the treble too.

You could apply these equalizations using the Roon DSP. Roon doesn't have a specific BSC filter, but you can get by with low shelf (6dB slope.)  Start at 400Hz, +4dB amplitude, slide the freq up and down to taste.

Offline Nick B

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Re: help for my Tang Band 8 inch W8-1808 single drivers
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2017, 09:44:27 AM »
Rather than a full xover what about trying to figure out where the current drivers are rolling off and then just build a lpw pass filter to bring in the woofers a a point that would fill in whats missing. That  would feed the full signal to the Tang Bands, thus maintainig the intergitry of the single driver sound while at the same time giving them a little help on the lower frequency range you feel is a bit deficient in the OB configuration

Just a thought.........

That is a nice, simple idea. I have a friend who might be able to figure that out. OB is so simple, but I can certainly opt for a different cabinet design. OB is my wifeís preference, but I think sheís flexible with other options as long as a small footprint is retained. 
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline Nick B

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Re: help for my Tang Band 8 inch W8-1808 single drivers
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2017, 09:50:51 AM »
I assume you are running the speaker connected directly to your amp. You will need to add 3-4dB of baffle step compensation to boost the bass, and probably impedance correction to contour the treble too.

You could apply these equalizations using the Roon DSP. Roon doesn't have a specific BSC filter, but you can get by with low shelf (6dB slope.)  Start at 400Hz, +4dB amplitude, slide the freq up and down to taste.

Yes, Rich, direct to amp. I just read up a bit on BSC. Iíll give Roon a try later today.
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline richidoo

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Re: help for my Tang Band 8 inch W8-1808 single drivers
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2017, 08:21:23 AM »
open baffle that Iím experimenting with

I reread your post, and saw that you are using OB. In addition to the theorical -6dB extra rolloff due to cabinate diffraction (that you get with any baffle), you will also need to add a lot of bass boost 12dB/oct to compensate for cancellation from the rear wave below wavelengths equal to longer than the baffle width.

You can apply active EQ with Roon to boost the bass to correct BS and OB cancellation, the limitation being the excursion of the driver. Bring a high sensitivity, full range driver, it has limited excursion. Pushing the driver to play lower and louder requires longer cone excursion. If you exceed the excursion limits of the cone suspension, you can damage the driver and it sounds more distorted the longer the excursion.

So yes, the answer is a helper woofer. If you are going to be powering this with it's own amp, then almost any large woofer will work, but you will need a low pass filter to cut it off where the TB comes in full. Since the OB TB has about 18dB rolloff due to BS and OB, you'll need similar rolloff on the woofer to blend.

There's a lot of details to consider to make it blend well in amplitude and phase. Type of amp, size of woofer, type of low pass filter, driver recommendation, Q, senstivity, ect. Gotta run off to tennis tourney, then car repair, F1, NASCAR, Patriots and pot roast dinner. But I'll write about it asap.

One good way to go if you can afford it is the rytthmik OB subs with active amp. That makes good powerful detailed bass, fully engineered to work as you wish. It's not too expensive, but not cheap.
More later
Rich
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 09:03:02 AM by richidoo »

Offline richidoo

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Re: help for my Tang Band 8 inch W8-1808 single drivers
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2017, 09:15:08 AM »
A cheap way is Eminence alpha 15 woofer and simple passive filter to blend it. They sound slow and lush due to very high Qts but thats also what makes it play low andloudbass withoutelectronic boost. And thats what makes it cheap too, very weak motor.

A better quality woofer like Faitalpro 18 or B&C 18 will make a lot more morre bass detailbut needs to be Eqd to play low.  Most people dont mind the alpha 15, but it's too much for me. The timepiece bass has spoiled you i think you might be a bass snob like me now.  :D.
I'll let you respond before I rant anymore.

Offline Nick B

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Re: help for my Tang Band 8 inch W8-1808 single drivers
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2017, 10:14:08 AM »
A cheap way is Eminence alpha 15 woofer and simple passive filter to blend it. They sound slow and lush due to very high Qts but thats also what makes it play low andloudbass withoutelectronic boost. And thats what makes it cheap too, very weak motor.

A better quality woofer like Faitalpro 18 or B&C 18 will make a lot more morre bass detailbut needs to be Eqd to play low.  Most people dont mind the alpha 15, but it's too much for me. The timepiece bass has spoiled you i think you might be a bass snob like me now.  :D.
I'll let you respond before I rant anymore.

Hey Rich,
I like the simple approach much better. Donít want heavy subs with extra wires etc. Regarding the Eminence 15, Iím wondering if it would really give the sound quality Iím looking for. An 18Ē sub will be more than my wife can handle. Wouldnít an Alnico sub in the 10 to 12 inch range be just fine as itís dedicated just for maybe the sub 100 hz range?

Also, one problem with adding a sub is a bigger enclosure and the probable need for a more powerful amp than a Temple Bantam or a Folsom. I love my McCormack, but Iíve grown tired of 70 lb amps.

 I may just buy the cheapie car subwoofer boxes that Gary used. For $50, itís another cheap experiment. There really was sufficient bass at Garyís using them. One things pretty sure...the TBs in an OB donít quite cut it on the bottom end as Iíve been spoiled by the SPTechs.
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline richidoo

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Re: help for my Tang Band 8 inch W8-1808 single drivers
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2017, 01:55:06 PM »
The simplest is to put the TV in a box like Transcendent Sound, or Bob Brines' design, see my links in the other AN thread. Then the reflex port is your sub. :D 

If you want passive OB, with OB helper woofer, then it will be bigger and uglier than Timepiece (WAF POV) and you need a custom passive crossover.

Yes, 10" is big enough cone to accomplish your goal, but there's a lot more to it than cone size. :)  Passive xo for open baffle requires high Qts woofer. For 10", the only one I know is AE Dipole 10. It's senstivity is pretty low 85dB, so you're FR driver will have to be attenuated lower than that to get flat FR. And it still has that warm, high Q sound, but probably a lot better than Alpha 15.

The 8" Tang Band plus a 10" helper woofer, whether box or OB is always going to be bigger than the Timepiece with 8" driver and waveguide and DIY is always uglier than commercial paint job.

I think the reflex boxes are the way to go. That sound is why you bought the drivers, and that's what they are designed for. SImple, WAF, cheap.

If that is still too big and ugly, consider JBL 705P. Tiny, with built in amps and DAC, amazing bass, DSP allows EQ to your taste and room correction if needed. $2k new, easy to sell.

Offline Nick B

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Re: help for my Tang Band 8 inch W8-1808 single drivers
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2017, 04:26:37 PM »
The simplest is to put the TV in a box like Transcendent Sound, or Bob Brines' design, see my links in the other AN thread. Then the reflex port is your sub. :D 

If you want passive OB, with OB helper woofer, then it will be bigger and uglier than Timepiece (WAF POV) and you need a custom passive crossover.

Yes, 10" is big enough cone to accomplish your goal, but there's a lot more to it than cone size. :)  Passive xo for open baffle requires high Qts woofer. For 10", the only one I know is AE Dipole 10. It's senstivity is pretty low 85dB, so you're FR driver will have to be attenuated lower than that to get flat FR. And it still has that warm, high Q sound, but probably a lot better than Alpha 15.

The 8" Tang Band plus a 10" helper woofer, whether box or OB is always going to be bigger than the Timepiece with 8" driver and waveguide and DIY is always uglier than commercial paint job.

I think the reflex boxes are the way to go. That sound is why you bought the drivers, and that's what they are designed for. SImple, WAF, cheap.

If that is still too big and ugly, consider JBL 705P. Tiny, with built in amps and DAC, amazing bass, DSP allows EQ to your taste and room correction if needed. $2k new, easy to sell.

Rich, I checked out Transcendent and Bob Brines again. Showed my wife the floorstanding Brines and she asked me not to do floorstanding. As Iím trying to downsize and reduce weight, adding 3/4Ē or mdf plywood is going to add that weight back in. A reflex box is the way to go. Did a quick search and couldnít find a finished product yet. Maybe a flat box would work as well. I have done staining and finish coats that looked pretty good. Thanks for the good advice.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 01:09:08 PM by Nick B »
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline Nick B

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Re: help for my Tang Band 8 inch W8-1808 single drivers
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2017, 10:46:22 AM »
I did some serious listening last night. I had to do a rescan and was able to listen to a lot of very familiar music. The tang bands have at least 20 hours on them. On well  recorded music they sound pretty good and there is tons of detail. On poor to mediocre music, the detail is too much. I listen to a lot of music recorded in the 50s and 60s. So itís a bit of a dilemma. I am putting the SPs up for sale as Iím committed to making a change.
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline richidoo

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Re: help for my Tang Band 8 inch W8-1808 single drivers
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2017, 11:29:57 AM »
Too much detail?!?  You're starting to sound like me!  :rofl:  Maybe you're not an audiophile after all anymore?

Because FR drivers are very large tweeters, they beam the high freq, so you have to aim it away from your ears or you get too much detail/treble.