Author Topic: If you were to design the Perfect Speaker...  (Read 1362 times)

Offline Nick B

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Re: If you were to design the Perfect Speaker...
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2017, 04:36:21 PM »
Shoot for the stars....right?


OK, I would want a thin film that is mounted on a wall and it should be transparent.
It would provide the depth and width of soundstage of an open baffle
No crossover
Highs should be as crisp and non-fatiguing as the best tweeters available
The midrange should have the clarity and presence of my old Lowther PM2As
Bass should be tuneful yet crushing and should go to at least 20Hz
They should be north of 110dB sensitive and not break up until after 125or 130dB (that way I can play them with 1 watt and still have ample headroom).


....oh, and they need to be cheap (not inexpensive). I'm talking in the $500 range.


Too much to ask for? :thumb:

Not at all....I'm with you 😉
McCormack DNA 1.0 Gold amp
KEF LS 50 speakers
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Roon Labs (upsampling to 24/192
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PI Audio Uber
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Offline rollo

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Re: If you were to design the Perfect Speaker...
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2017, 07:08:07 AM »
Great idea.


charles
Home demo.
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Offline doug s.

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Re: If you were to design the Perfect Speaker...
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2017, 07:09:34 PM »
while it's nice to have a flat speaker from 20hz-20khz in one unit, it will always sound better if you have the lowest octave in separate enclosures.  simply because the way the soundwaves interact with the room. subwoofers will typically sound best in locations different from the frequencies of your main speakers.  i found this to be true even when i owned 1-box speakers 20hz-20khzĪ2dB.  when i got outboard subs w/active x-over and crossed the mains at 70hz, w/the subs installed outside the mains a couple feet away, everything sounded better.  Does not matter if OB, Box, Planar, single driver, electrostatic or fieldcoil.  ;)  even if your mains are flat to 20hz, and you don't want to eliminate their low end output, adding outboard subs will still improve the sound, due to better room loading and lower distortion, imo.  now, if you have a ~10'x12' room, you may want to re-think having main speakers flat to 20hz, but you could still do a pair of subs flat to 20hz and make it work, w/active x-overs.

now, i have other ideas, but not certain there's only one "right way".  i like line arrays.  (i'd love to hear the curved audio artistry cbt36k line array iteration.)  i like the idea of a walsh driver. (i want to try the new german physiks iteration).  i like full range horns - real horns, like my oris 150's.  but i also like active x-overs, and even dsp.  even w/a "full range driver", you need an x-over for the low end, and depending on the driver, you need an x-over w/a super tweeter.

and, coax point-source speakers can also sound phenomenal, if done well - similar to a full range driver.  my kef ls50's are quite the sonic wonders.  if i ever hook them up w/my deqx, they should get even better.  of course, now, the active ls50's seem to be much more cost-effective; everyone who's tried them say you would have to spend a lot more to get the passive ls50's to even equal the active iterations.

regarding efficiency, yes, i like efficient speakers.  but, inefficient speakers can sound fantastic, when paired w/the proper amplification.  so i don't think that's a show stopper either.

and, charles, i have recently read about the kii audio 3's, that are supposed to take speaker design to a completely different level, all with dsp and electronic controls, that are pretty-much as close to what it is you say you're wanting in a speaker that you will find.  basically, besides being relatively compact, and w/flat frequency response from 20hz-20khz, they take the room out of the equation, which is easily the most serious impediment to good sound in 95% of audiophile (and non audiophile) abodes.  you should check them out.  ;)
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/kii-audio-three
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/kii/1.html
https://vintageking.com/blog/2017/06/kii-three-review/
https://www.stereophile.com/content/kii-audio-three-loudspeaker
https://medium.com/@conscienta/kii-three-review-a-revolutionary-speaker-759c15b014cf
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2015/10/futureshocked-by-the-kii-three-active-loudspeaker/

i am the 1st to admit i am not gonna ever get rich designing speakers, much as i'd like to.   :mrgreen:

doug s.

To start a flat frequency response from 20HZ to 20KHZ in one unit. A minimum of 94DB sensitivity. Does not matter if OB, Box, Planar, single driver, electrostatic or fieldcoil. No or minimal crossover to boot.
Get a going Men.


charles

Offline rollo

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Re: If you were to design the Perfect Speaker...
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2018, 08:51:56 AM »
  Interesting Doug. To date no DSP anything has sounded natural to me. However willing to listen.


charles
Home demo.
 contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit on Facebook
Lamm - Aqua Acoustic Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm Speakers - PI Audio Uberbuss - Triode Wire Labs- Kuzma - Furutech - Audio Hungry Qualiton - Fritz Carrera speakers -Gigawatt

Offline HAL

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Re: If you were to design the Perfect Speaker...
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2018, 09:09:03 AM »
Open baffle line array with ribbons and planars, tied to open baffle array of servo subs with a DSP crossover.   Beamform the lines.  Then room correct it all.

Hmmm... already did that! No need for anything new at this point. :D

Direct drive of the planar/ribbon line array elements is the way to go for me. 

Offline doug s.

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Re: If you were to design the Perfect Speaker...
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2018, 10:26:51 AM »
  Interesting Doug. To date no DSP anything has sounded natural to me. However willing to listen.

charles
hi charlie!

even my relatively ancient deqx pdc 2.6 has improved the sound of any speaker i've tried it with.  the "new stuff" now out (both deqx and its competition) are supposed to be even better.  you should try it some time...  ;)

doug

ps - don't you really like qol?  isn't that dsp?  ;)

Offline Nick B

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Re: If you were to design the Perfect Speaker...
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2018, 11:35:12 AM »
while it's nice to have a flat speaker from 20hz-20khz in one unit, it will always sound better if you have the lowest octave in separate enclosures.  simply because the way the soundwaves interact with the room. subwoofers will typically sound best in locations different from the frequencies of your main speakers.  i found this to be true even when i owned 1-box speakers 20hz-20khzĪ2dB.  when i got outboard subs w/active x-over and crossed the mains at 70hz, w/the subs installed outside the mains a couple feet away, everything sounded better.  Does not matter if OB, Box, Planar, single driver, electrostatic or fieldcoil.  ;)  even if your mains are flat to 20hz, and you don't want to eliminate their low end output, adding outboard subs will still improve the sound, due to better room loading and lower distortion, imo.  now, if you have a ~10'x12' room, you may want to re-think having main speakers flat to 20hz, but you could still do a pair of subs flat to 20hz and make it work, w/active x-overs.

now, i have other ideas, but not certain there's only one "right way".  i like line arrays.  (i'd love to hear the curved audio artistry cbt36k line array iteration.)  i like the idea of a walsh driver. (i want to try the new german physiks iteration).  i like full range horns - real horns, like my oris 150's.  but i also like active x-overs, and even dsp.  even w/a "full range driver", you need an x-over for the low end, and depending on the driver, you need an x-over w/a super tweeter.

and, coax point-source speakers can also sound phenomenal, if done well - similar to a full range driver.  my kef ls50's are quite the sonic wonders.  if i ever hook them up w/my deqx, they should get even better.  of course, now, the active ls50's seem to be much more cost-effective; everyone who's tried them say you would have to spend a lot more to get the passive ls50's to even equal the active iterations.

regarding efficiency, yes, i like efficient speakers.  but, inefficient speakers can sound fantastic, when paired w/the proper amplification.  so i don't think that's a show stopper either.

and, charles, i have recently read about the kii audio 3's, that are supposed to take speaker design to a completely different level, all with dsp and electronic controls, that are pretty-much as close to what it is you say you're wanting in a speaker that you will find.  basically, besides being relatively compact, and w/flat frequency response from 20hz-20khz, they take the room out of the equation, which is easily the most serious impediment to good sound in 95% of audiophile (and non audiophile) abodes.  you should check them out.  ;)
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/kii-audio-three
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/kii/1.html
https://vintageking.com/blog/2017/06/kii-three-review/
https://www.stereophile.com/content/kii-audio-three-loudspeaker
https://medium.com/@conscienta/kii-three-review-a-revolutionary-speaker-759c15b014cf
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2015/10/futureshocked-by-the-kii-three-active-loudspeaker/

i am the 1st to admit i am not gonna ever get rich designing speakers, much as i'd like to.   :mrgreen:

doug s.

To start a flat frequency response from 20HZ to 20KHZ in one unit. A minimum of 94DB sensitivity. Does not matter if OB, Box, Planar, single driver, electrostatic or fieldcoil. No or minimal crossover to boot.
Get a going Men.


charles
Very interesting  speakers, Doug. Another company I hadnít heard of. Not surprising that Bruno P is involved. Too bad itís way out of my price range and speakers like HALs arenít smaller. Iíve read up on some dsp speakers like the JBL 705p that Poseidens Voice has recommended as well as a JansZen monitor that another friend mentioned.
Too bad Iím not wealthly and closer to some big cities so I could hear more of these products
Nick
McCormack DNA 1.0 Gold amp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Antelope Audio Gold dac
Auralic Aries Mini - Tidal
Roon Labs (upsampling to 24/192
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline jimbones

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Re: If you were to design the Perfect Speaker...
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2018, 11:50:32 AM »
As a speaker designer I have to agree with Bob M; there is no perfect speaker. I do however enjoy the strengths of different types of speakers as they all sound different.
Modwright LS100, KWA 100SE Pwr, VPI Classic II/BenzMicro Glider, Open Aire Aktiv OB Speakers,  Emotiva ERC-3,Lumin D1, Burson Conductor, DH Labs, Wywires, PS Audio, TWL, PS Audio

Offline P.I.

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Re: If you were to design the Perfect Speaker...
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2018, 12:31:06 PM »
I do not subscribe to crossoverless. I probably would if I didn't have special ways of changing them.
Would you care to elaborate, or...

If OR, I get it 😎
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Offline doug s.

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Re: If you were to design the Perfect Speaker...
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2018, 08:16:06 PM »
Very interesting  speakers, Doug. Another company I hadnít heard of. Not surprising that Bruno P is involved. Too bad itís way out of my price range and speakers like HALs arenít smaller. Iíve read up on some dsp speakers like the JBL 705p that Poseidens Voice has recommended as well as a JansZen monitor that another friend mentioned.
Too bad Iím not wealthly and closer to some big cities so I could hear more of these products
Nick
nick, if you think those are interesting, check these out - even interestinger!   :D

https://dutchdutch.com/8c


reviews:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/dutchdutch/1.html
http://realgearonline.com/thread/7786/dutch-8c-speakers

i understand your feelings about the money thing.  your feeling about not being so close to big cities, not so much.  ;)

doug s.,
so many speakers, so little time (and $$$)

Offline Nick B

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Re: If you were to design the Perfect Speaker...
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2018, 10:38:25 PM »
Very interesting  speakers, Doug. Another company I hadnít heard of. Not surprising that Bruno P is involved. Too bad itís way out of my price range and speakers like HALs arenít smaller. Iíve read up on some dsp speakers like the JBL 705p that Poseidens Voice has recommended as well as a JansZen monitor that another friend mentioned.
Too bad Iím not wealthly and closer to some big cities so I could hear more of these products
Nick
nick, if you think those are interesting, check these out - even interestinger!   :D

https://dutchdutch.com/8c


reviews:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/dutchdutch/1.html
http://realgearonline.com/thread/7786/dutch-8c-speakers

i understand your feelings about the money thing.  your feeling about not being so close to big cities, not so much.  ;)

doug s.,
so many speakers, so little time (and $$$)

Doug,
So itís only a matter of money.....or my lack of it? 😳 I went to youtube and their website. Here's
another interesting company which is also out of my price range... $5,000 euros. No US distributor.
https://youtu.be/ce1YO2rHawo
Nick
McCormack DNA 1.0 Gold amp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Antelope Audio Gold dac
Auralic Aries Mini - Tidal
Roon Labs (upsampling to 24/192
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline doug s.

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Re: If you were to design the Perfect Speaker...
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2018, 03:45:47 PM »
this is weird...

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/article/origin-live-astute--pound;4995/20483


hang 'em from the ceiling if floor space is an issue?  :shock:

doug s.

Offline P.I.

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Re: If you were to design the Perfect Speaker...
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2018, 05:46:41 PM »
this is weird...

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/article/origin-live-astute--pound;4995/20483


hang 'em from the ceiling if floor space is an issue?  :shock:

doug s.
Back in the 80's I worked in a recording studio that had Urei 811 monitors that were hung from the ceiling with 1/4" link chains.  When I talked the studio owner into letting me build soffits for them and mount them on 3" thick laminations of plywood and MDF the bottom had extended another octave or two and the bass impact was finally there from those 604E's.

I realize that they are to be used with a subwoofer, but an 8" driver moving @ 80hz will still have to transfer the opposing kinetic energy somewhere.  I guess I'm jaded in my old age. Just sayin'...
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 05:50:44 PM by P.I. »
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Offline doug s.

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Re: If you were to design the Perfect Speaker...
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2018, 08:33:07 PM »
this is weird...

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/article/origin-live-astute--pound;4995/20483


hang 'em from the ceiling if floor space is an issue?  :shock:

doug s.
Back in the 80's I worked in a recording studio that had Urei 811 monitors that were hung from the ceiling with 1/4" link chains.  When I talked the studio owner into letting me build soffits for them and mount them on 3" thick laminations of plywood and MDF the bottom had extended another octave or two and the bass impact was finally there from those 604E's.

I realize that they are to be used with a subwoofer, but an 8" driver moving @ 80hz will still have to transfer the opposing kinetic energy somewhere.  I guess I'm jaded in my old age. Just sayin'...
i had the same reaction.  but, according to the review, they don't move even a tiny bit.  wery strange, me-thinks...

doug s.

Offline dBe

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Re: If you were to design the Perfect Speaker...
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2018, 10:08:55 PM »
this is weird...

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/article/origin-live-astute--pound;4995/20483

Perhaps they per ute physics.  Did they use a laser accelerator to measure displacement?  Me thinks not  :D
hang 'em from the ceiling if floor space is an issue?  :shock:

doug s.
Back in the 80's I worked in a recording studio that had Urei 811 monitors that were hung from the ceiling with 1/4" link chains.  When I talked the studio owner into letting me build soffits for them and mount them on 3" thick laminations of plywood and MDF the bottom had extended another octave or two and the bass impact was finally there from those 604E's.

I realize that they are to be used with a subwoofer, but an 8" driver moving @ 80hz will still have to transfer the opposing kinetic energy somewhere.  I guess I'm jaded in my old age. Just sayin'...
i had the same reaction.  but, according to the review, they don't move even a tiny bit.  wery strange, me-thinks...

doug s.