Author Topic: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub  (Read 6338 times)

Offline doug s.

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #165 on: May 12, 2018, 10:23:34 AM »
Still looking into subs. Was looking at Dannys 12Ē kit and waiting for a guy to contact me and give a quote to build the cabinet. It appears best performance is between a 1.5 to 1.8 cu ft enclosure. Does anyone know if making it smaller will simply lessen the performance from maybe 18 hz to say 24 hz?
I presume it will screw up the performance, but just wanted to ask. The F12 Rythmik is too big. L12 not too bad as to size....and money.
Another question is what is the effect of having to use a splitter for the line connection?
the cabinet plans for danny's subwoofer kit will give you a subwoofer with the exact dimensions as the rythmik f12.  yes, you could likely make it smaller, but it seems that specific size has been optimized.  perhaps it's worth querying danny and/or rythmik about it.  i'd also query rythmik about whether they could sell you a special L12 w/the a370 amp instead of the hx300, as this would basically give you the smaller cabinet w/the same amp & driver as the f12 or danny's kit w/his cabinet plans.  (they actually sell an f12 w/the hx300 amp for less $; maybe they'd do it in reverse, for an upcharge over the regular L12.)  might save time/money.

i wouldn't worry about any issues w/using a splitter, unless your output impedance of your preamp (or source) is more than 1.5k.  typically, you want to make sure that your output impedance is 1/10th the input impedance of the amps.  using a splitter will effectively be reducing the input impedance of the amps by about half.  but, your amp has input impedance of 100k, and the rythmik amps have input impedance of 30k; it's unlikely that you have a source that is more than 1.5k output impedance.  at 1.5k output impedance of your sources, the rythmik's effective 15k input impedance resulting from using a splitter will have no effect; w/the mccormack amp's effective 50k impedance, it's the same.

doug s.

Offline Nick B

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #166 on: May 12, 2018, 02:54:11 PM »
Still looking into subs. Was looking at Dannys 12Ē kit and waiting for a guy to contact me and give a quote to build the cabinet. It appears best performance is between a 1.5 to 1.8 cu ft enclosure. Does anyone know if making it smaller will simply lessen the performance from maybe 18 hz to say 24 hz?
I presume it will screw up the performance, but just wanted to ask. The F12 Rythmik is too big. L12 not too bad as to size....and money.
Another question is what is the effect of having to use a splitter for the line connection?
the cabinet plans for danny's subwoofer kit will give you a subwoofer with the exact dimensions as the rythmik f12.  yes, you could likely make it smaller, but it seems that specific size has been optimized.  perhaps it's worth querying danny and/or rythmik about it.  i'd also query rythmik about whether they could sell you a special L12 w/the a370 amp instead of the hx300, as this would basically give you the smaller cabinet w/the same amp & driver as the f12 or danny's kit w/his cabinet plans.  (they actually sell an f12 w/the hx300 amp for less $; maybe they'd do it in reverse, for an upcharge over the regular L12.)  might save time/money.

i wouldn't worry about any issues w/using a splitter, unless your output impedance of your preamp (or source) is more than 1.5k.  typically, you want to make sure that your output impedance is 1/10th the input impedance of the amps.  using a splitter will effectively be reducing the input impedance of the amps by about half.  but, your amp has input impedance of 100k, and the rythmik amps have input impedance of 30k; it's unlikely that you have a source that is more than 1.5k output impedance.  at 1.5k output impedance of your sources, the rythmik's effective 15k input impedance resulting from using a splitter will have no effect; w/the mccormack amp's effective 50k impedance, it's the same.

doug s.


I like your ideas,  Doug. I just sent an email to Rythmik detailing my situation. Would like to get the sub situation resolved.
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline rollo

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #167 on: May 16, 2018, 11:01:07 AM »
  I agree with Doug an excellent sub for your consideration.

charles
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Offline shadowlight

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #168 on: May 16, 2018, 11:17:11 AM »
Nick, when you talk to Rythmik ask them about their 8" sub/kits also.

Offline Nick B

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #169 on: May 16, 2018, 12:15:35 PM »
Nick, when you talk to Rythmik ask them about their 8" sub/kits also.

D, they do? I will check it out right now. Thanks!
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline shadowlight

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Offline doug s.

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #171 on: May 16, 2018, 02:35:51 PM »
i didn't recommend the f8 for two reasons - for the price, you may as well get 2 L12's; and i believe it's too big for what nick wants.

doug s.

Offline Nick B

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #172 on: July 13, 2018, 10:08:54 AM »
I read this entire thread again as itís time to buy a sub. Current equipment is an ICE 1200as amp, Audio Hungary APR 204 tube preamp (coming soon from Charles), a Border Patrol SE dac and my KEF LS 50s.
I have narrowed down sub choices to SVS SB 1000, Definitive Technology Supercube 4000, Rythmik L12 and maybe a dsp custom unit from Rick Craig at Selah. The Selah would be a bit pricey at over $1,000.
My preferences are a smaller than larger footprint, less than 50 lbs and thatís one of the reasons I like the SVS SB 1000, the bass response is down to 24 Hz and itís about $500 new.

I would like comments about the value of a dsp unit like what Rick would make for me vs just getting a non dsp sub. Is a dsp sub worth having ? Ideally, Iíd like to place it in the left front corner. Not critical, but an ideal placement. If I get a regular sub or servo controlled unit and itís not the ideal location, then Iíd lose some performance. Iíve read up on the subwoofer crawl thing, so that should dial in the best location.
Iíd appreciate any comments
Nick
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/L12.html
https://www.definitivetechnology.com/products/supercube-4000
https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-1000



« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 10:10:52 AM by Nick B »
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline richidoo

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #173 on: July 13, 2018, 12:58:19 PM »
Decide how you will time align the sub before you buy it, because if it is not aligned you'll prefer the sound with the sub turned off. #Srsly

For time alignment to the main speakers, position the sub at or within the radius of the main speakers to your listening position. Ideally the KEF woofer and center of sub cone should be the exact same distance to your earhole, within 2". If the sub is closer to you than the mains, use the sub delay knob to compensate. If the sub is farther from you than the mains (like you propose, and like most subs hidden in the front corner) then you MUST use DSP to delay the main speakers to allow the sub wave to catch up. miniDSP? HT Rx? Pre/pro? etc...

Offline doug s.

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #174 on: July 13, 2018, 02:18:51 PM »
i would choose the rythmik out of those options.  it meets your criteria re: size and weight, and its price is only a bit higher than $500.  and it's servo. 

re: rich's comments about phase, when you say you want it in the left corner, is that going to be inside the left hand speaker? from the pic of your room, it seems to me that it would be simple enough to get it centered enough so that exact phasing would not be that much of a problem.  and personally, if you're only going to use a single sub, i'd pull it out to exact center, in front of your equipment rack, when doing serious listening in the "sweet spot".  the rest of the time, and in the rest of the room, it won't matter.


doug s.

Offline AJ Soundfield

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #175 on: July 13, 2018, 02:22:37 PM »
Decide how you will time align the sub before you buy it, because if it is not aligned you'll prefer the sound with the sub turned off. #Srsly
Would you be surprised if I agreed with you?  ;)
Phase alignment is very important, misalignment with certainly show up in the frequency domain. I also recommend, regardless of budget, 2 subs, never one, unless you listen only to pop/HT. There is spatial content down to very low frequencies with acoustic music and mono bass has zero chance of reproducing that. My 2c

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker Manufacturer

Offline Nick B

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #176 on: July 13, 2018, 08:11:36 PM »
Ok, I get it re the time alignment thing. This kind of implies that a fair number of folks are getting mediocre/less than optimal sound,  by putting a sub in an out of the way spot and hoping for the best. I was going to place the sub in front of the left speaker and near the side wall, either firing toward the center...at a right angle to the front of the kef, or angled toward my listening chair. Kind of like the left side of an isosceles triangle.
If I pick a small enough sub, it could permanently be in the center in front of the equipment rack and the speakers.  Itís its too big, then itís a no as to function and looks. Moving a sub into position each time I listen doesnít sound like fun.
Whatís the value of the old subwoofer crawl then if you donít have a sub with dsp capability?
As to two subs, Iíd prefer not to do it. Itís a small living room and it has to be functional. I donít listen to classical and a lot of the music is fair to middling. Iíd rather listen to songs that I like than songs where the recordings are outstanding, but I donít care for the content. Maybe some day when I have a dedicated listening room.
As to a servo sub, wouldnít the servo software act like dsp capability rendering the placement not as critical?
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline richidoo

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #177 on: July 14, 2018, 09:03:07 AM »
Here's a sub for ya, Nick



https://www.transcendentsound.com/bucket-sub.html

If you use a 7 gallon bucket instead of a 5 gallon, then you could build a fake floor inside it with plywood, glue it in with silicone caulk. Put some 2" feet on the bottom so that the sub driver can fire down. Then put 2 gals of soil in the top and fill it with plants. Drape the outside with "really pretty fabric." The WAF-SUB

Offline Nick B

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #178 on: July 14, 2018, 09:43:48 AM »
Here's a sub for ya, Nick



https://www.transcendentsound.com/bucket-sub.html

If you use a 7 gallon bucket instead of a 5 gallon, then you could build a fake floor inside it with plywood, glue it in with silicone caulk. Put some 2" feet on the bottom so that the sub driver can fire down. Then put 2 gals of soil in the top and fill it with plants. Drape the outside with "really pretty fabric." The WAF-SUB

Rich,
Hmm, an Ed Schilling special 😀 Building one of these had not been on my ďbucket listĒ. But I admire the ingenuity. At the rate Iím going in trying to understand the brave new world of subwoofers,
maybe Iíll do it. Or I could simply get the KEF R300 and sell the LS 50s.
https://www.kefdirect.com/r300-bookshelf-speaker-pair.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7aqKtoSf3AIVg8hkCh2NhQeuEAQYASABEgK0yfD_BwE
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline rollo

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Re: want recommendations for small 2 way speakers and powered sub
« Reply #179 on: July 14, 2018, 11:13:44 AM »
  Let me add a thingie or two. I would not use outboard subs. Would prefer a full range speaker instead. Or at a minimum 30Hz at bottom.  Either Fritz or AJ's speaker. Bass  is low enough for most music. I had both AJ's and Fritz in my home. Both excellent designs. Both do not require a sub. KEF makes a VG speaker as well however IMHO overwhelming on top.
AJ's design is excellent all around.
Getting a sub or subs can be a royal PITA to get right. With the stand mounted speaker being 2ft from front wall the bass will be naturally reinforced from that wall. Save your money on the sub, subs and considera different speaker.


charles
Home demo.
 contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit on Facebook
Lamm - Aqua Acoustic Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm Speakers - PI Audio Uberbuss - Triode Wire Labs- Kuzma - Furutech - Audio Hungry Qualiton - Fritz Carrera speakers -Gigawatt