Author Topic: VTA ST-70  (Read 3795 times)

Offline steve

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Re: VTA ST-70
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2017, 07:51:45 PM »
I don't think it's weird at all. It is just more complicated that most people realize or at least are willing to admit.

Over my years in this hobby I have dealt with many measurement objectivists who would say that there was no difference between two components because the measured the same. And when a while bunch of us listened and heard the same differences we were told it was all in our heads because the components "couldn't" sound different.

My answer to that was always if we hear a difference that you can't measure it the answer is not that the difference does not exist but rather that you are measuring the wrong things.

Yep, got to be careful what forums you frequent and their agenda.

I have been permanently banned from another forum (positron moniker) while that forum still claims I am a "new member" with 26 posts. Over 1300 deleted though, so they lied about my status and sure did not have any problems with my posts for the past 13 years.

I was banned after I was asked to have any of my data "peer reviewed" by a gent and book author (both number guys). I replied that they only listed sight as a variable confound, and did not even mention cochlea fatigue. Why would I have them peer review my data? I was permanently banned by the next day.

You are certainly correct Tmazz, designing is much more complicated than the numbers people/engineers would have you believe. Although most are only taught numbers in college, don't be fooled, many of their comments are for marketing purposes.    

This forum is a good forum so we need to value it and help it grow if we can.

Cheers
Steve
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 08:13:29 PM by steve »
Pre/Amp/ICs are the only components that can be tested for accuracy/naturalness.

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Offline tmazz

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Re: VTA ST-70
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2017, 09:31:56 PM »
When I finished engineering school (EE) I bought myself a copy of the current ITT Radio Engineer's Handbook as a graduation present. One of the most humbling experiences of my life was the first time I opened that book and realized how much I hadn't learned in college.  :rofl:
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline Brap

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Re: VTA ST-70
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2017, 05:38:14 AM »
While I was building a Transcendent OTL 2 years ago and a VTA-70 this past January, I took out my old EE text books from college just for fun to calculate some values in the circuits from the above.  Cant believe some of the notes on the pages were MINE and how much I forgot!
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Offline steve

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Re: VTA ST-70
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2017, 07:32:06 AM »
Quote
While I was building a Transcendent OTL 2 years ago and a VTA-70 this past January, I took out my old EE text books from college just for fun to calculate some values in the circuits from the above.  Cant believe some of the notes on the pages were MINE and how much I forgot!
Quote
When I finished engineering school (EE) I bought myself a copy of the current ITT Radio Engineer's Handbook as a graduation present. One of the most humbling experiences of my life was the first time I opened that book and realized how much I hadn't learned in college.  ROFLMAO

My apologies Gentlemen as I did not know you had EE degrees.
I assumed what I should not have.

Fortunately, the public still can benefit from my mistake by our posts.

Cheers and again my apology.
Steve
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 07:49:31 AM by steve »
Pre/Amp/ICs are the only components that can be tested for accuracy/naturalness.

Steve Sammet (retired)

SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Preamplifier
SAS Audio 25 W Triode Amp
Test Speakers 20-20khz
SAS Audio ICs
12 parallel 18 gauge wires

Offline Brap

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Re: VTA ST-70
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2017, 07:39:42 AM »
No apology required!
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Offline richidoo

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Re: VTA ST-70
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2017, 08:04:28 AM »
Subjective audiophiles are more like scientists, with open minds, heightened perception, willing to allow whatever they observe, excited and fun to note new observations. They believe in the unknown and fund their own experiments to explore it. Science never concludes, and there is never, ever a "scientific consensus." If there's a consensus then it's not science. A consensus like "cables don't matter," "feedback phase doesn't matter," "audiophiles are fools."  A consensus closes the discussion. It says that because most people whose opinion is judged by the bureaucracy to be valid agree that the world is flat or witches must burn then that is truth. Of course it isn't truth and that proves consensus is just closed minded religious belief.

Engineers and their closed-minded followers make these judgmental statements all the time. They work on problems using the consensus knowledge that is agreed by everyone in their field to be true. They are solving problems using the tools allowed by the system. They must work within the consensus even if it's not true. A person who can function in this world must be able to shut off the truth gene and just get 'er done without caring about truth. After 30 years of habitually filtering out scientific wonder they become incapable of using that muscle even if they want to. So they resist and become cemented to the old way of thinking and ignored by open minded scientific minds who look to the future and learning new things.

Most audio equipment is designed by engineer types, because the subjective audiophiles who contract them do not possess the engineering tools needed to make the stuff themselves. A combination of open minded visionary management and moneymen with scientists possessing engineering skills makes the best audio gear, or any other product for that matter. This is where you get the society changing products.  With a culture of open minded discovery, nothing is too crazy to consider, close minded dogma is rejected. Human resources is the hardest working department in the company.

Offline rollo

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Re: VTA ST-70
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2017, 08:57:07 AM »
  Well written Richidoo.


charles
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Offline steve

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Re: VTA ST-70
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2017, 04:28:34 PM »
By the way, there is a large group of "engineers" that work together at what used to be Hydrogen Audio forums, maybe it still exists, and who are affiliated with a large corporation. They are heavily involved in attempting to shape the audio public's opinions.

They tend to spread out to various forums. I have dealt directly with them in the past, as I have previously posted in other forums at AN, and I have recently found a few more in the past year. If anyone is interested they can PM me for their names.

Cheers
Steve
Pre/Amp/ICs are the only components that can be tested for accuracy/naturalness.

Steve Sammet (retired)

SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Preamplifier
SAS Audio 25 W Triode Amp
Test Speakers 20-20khz
SAS Audio ICs
12 parallel 18 gauge wires

Offline steve

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Re: VTA ST-70
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2017, 09:30:22 AM »
By the way, there is a large group of "engineers" that work together at what used to be Hydrogen Audio forums, maybe it still exists, and who are affiliated with a large corporation. They are heavily involved in attempting to shape the audio public's opinions.

They tend to spread out to various forums. I have dealt directly with them in the past, as I have previously posted in other forums at AN, and I have recently found a few more in the past year. If anyone is interested they can PM me for their names.

Cheers
Steve

Forgot to add that I found out that one or more in the group have patents, thus royalties; so a vested financial interest in the numbers only position rather than the honesty and learning mode that Rich described in his fine post.

As an example of vested interests, several of these numbers/"scientific" guys provided false information about study setups etc. to discredit the study. As one example, one PhD claimed headphone use (so bone conduction) when super tweeters were actually used some 8 feet away.

Cheers
Steve
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 09:44:00 AM by steve »
Pre/Amp/ICs are the only components that can be tested for accuracy/naturalness.

Steve Sammet (retired)

SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Preamplifier
SAS Audio 25 W Triode Amp
Test Speakers 20-20khz
SAS Audio ICs
12 parallel 18 gauge wires

Offline rollo

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Re: VTA ST-70
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2017, 04:58:46 PM »
By the way, there is a large group of "engineers" that work together at what used to be Hydrogen Audio forums, maybe it still exists, and who are affiliated with a large corporation. They are heavily involved in attempting to shape the audio public's opinions.

They tend to spread out to various forums. I have dealt directly with them in the past, as I have previously posted in other forums at AN, and I have recently found a few more in the past year. If anyone is interested they can PM me for their names.

Cheers
Steve

Forgot to add that I found out that one or more in the group have patents, thus royalties; so a vested financial interest in the numbers only position rather than the honesty and learning mode that Rich described in his fine post.

As an example of vested interests, several of these numbers/"scientific" guys provided false information about study setups etc. to discredit the study. As one example, one PhD claimed headphone use (so bone conduction) when super tweeters were actually used some 8 feet away.

Cheers
Steve

  Can you say GLOBAL WARMING. Not in agreement, then NO FUNDING, Hmmm scientists eh.


charles
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Offline steve

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Re: VTA ST-70
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2017, 09:44:16 PM »
By the way, there is a large group of "engineers" that work together at what used to be Hydrogen Audio forums, maybe it still exists, and who are affiliated with a large corporation. They are heavily involved in attempting to shape the audio public's opinions.

They tend to spread out to various forums. I have dealt directly with them in the past, as I have previously posted in other forums at AN, and I have recently found a few more in the past year. If anyone is interested they can PM me for their names.

Cheers
Steve

Forgot to add that I found out that one or more in the group have patents, thus royalties; so a vested financial interest in the numbers only position rather than the honesty and learning mode that Rich described in his fine post.

As an example of vested interests, several of these numbers/"scientific" guys provided false information about study setups etc. to discredit the study. As one example, one PhD claimed headphone use (so bone conduction) when super tweeters were actually used some 8 feet away.

Cheers
Steve

  Can you say GLOBAL WARMING. Not in agreement, then NO FUNDING, Hmmm scientists eh.


charles

Maybe it is late, but I don't understand your point.

Cheers
Steve
Pre/Amp/ICs are the only components that can be tested for accuracy/naturalness.

Steve Sammet (retired)

SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Preamplifier
SAS Audio 25 W Triode Amp
Test Speakers 20-20khz
SAS Audio ICs
12 parallel 18 gauge wires

Offline dBe

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Re: VTA ST-70
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2017, 07:56:22 PM »
Subjective audiophiles are more like scientists, with open minds, heightened perception, willing to allow whatever they observe, excited and fun to note new observations. They believe in the unknown and fund their own experiments to explore it. Science never concludes, and there is never, ever a "scientific consensus." If there's a consensus then it's not science. A consensus like "cables don't matter," "feedback phase doesn't matter," "audiophiles are fools."  A consensus closes the discussion. It says that because most people whose opinion is judged by the bureaucracy to be valid agree that the world is flat or witches must burn then that is truth. Of course it isn't truth and that proves consensus is just closed minded religious belief.

Engineers and their closed-minded followers make these judgmental statements all the time. They work on problems using the consensus knowledge that is agreed by everyone in their field to be true. They are solving problems using the tools allowed by the system. They must work within the consensus even if it's not true. A person who can function in this world must be able to shut off the truth gene and just get 'er done without caring about truth. After 30 years of habitually filtering out scientific wonder they become incapable of using that muscle even if they want to. So they resist and become cemented to the old way of thinking and ignored by open minded scientific minds who look to the future and learning new things.

Most audio equipment is designed by engineer types, because the subjective audiophiles who contract them do not possess the engineering tools needed to make the stuff themselves. A combination of open minded visionary management and moneymen with scientists possessing engineering skills makes the best audio gear, or any other product for that matter. This is where you get the society changing products.  With a culture of open minded discovery, nothing is too crazy to consider, close minded dogma is rejected. Human resources is the hardest working department in the company.
Wow!  That kind of talk is part of what got me banned from another Forum!  Cool...  :thumb:

Offline Nick B

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Re: VTA ST-70
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2017, 08:16:22 PM »
Subjective audiophiles are more like scientists, with open minds, heightened perception, willing to allow whatever they observe, excited and fun to note new observations. They believe in the unknown and fund their own experiments to explore it. Science never concludes, and there is never, ever a "scientific consensus." If there's a consensus then it's not science. A consensus like "cables don't matter," "feedback phase doesn't matter," "audiophiles are fools."  A consensus closes the discussion. It says that because most people whose opinion is judged by the bureaucracy to be valid agree that the world is flat or witches must burn then that is truth. Of course it isn't truth and that proves consensus is just closed minded religious belief.

Engineers and their closed-minded followers make these judgmental statements all the time. They work on problems using the consensus knowledge that is agreed by everyone in their field to be true. They are solving problems using the tools allowed by the system. They must work within the consensus even if it's not true. A person who can function in this world must be able to shut off the truth gene and just get 'er done without caring about truth. After 30 years of habitually filtering out scientific wonder they become incapable of using that muscle even if they want to. So they resist and become cemented to the old way of thinking and ignored by open minded scientific minds who look to the future and learning new things.

Most audio equipment is designed by engineer types, because the subjective audiophiles who contract them do not possess the engineering tools needed to make the stuff themselves. A combination of open minded visionary management and moneymen with scientists possessing engineering skills makes the best audio gear, or any other product for that matter. This is where you get the society changing products.  With a culture of open minded discovery, nothing is too crazy to consider, close minded dogma is rejected. Human resources is the hardest working department in the company.
Wow!  That kind of talk is part of what got me banned from another Forum!  Cool...  :thumb:


That's a wonderful synopsis. Glad I was able to come across it.
Nick
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Offline djdube525

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Re: VTA ST-70
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2017, 03:44:09 AM »
I have found people's "beliefs" and "what they know to be true" are rooted in their frame of reference.

Much of the industry (and this is true for many industries, not just audio) it seems is rooted in incremental improvements. Could be feature enhancements, or cost reductions... but "new things" drive the economy.

The societal changing events seems to come from people outside the industry who have an idea. Even though there were some audio devices with meager amounts of flash storage, when Tony Fadell came to Steve Jobs about a music player that you can hold in your hand with 10G of music... and then when Apple introduced SW to make it easy to add music to the device (saw what you want about iTunes... it was a bit of a pain for the "average joe" before then. And now people pretty much have instant access to more content then is comprehensibly imagined from a computer, phone, or even a $35 mini computer (RPI).

I still remember the day my father handed my mother ("technophobe" would be an understated description of my mother) an iPad that had access to all their connected devices and all their ripped music, and she could play anything with a couple taps, and my father no longer had to "come up stairs to turn on the stereo and play a CD".... not to be over the top, but it was a bit life changing for both of them

But I digress...



How's the ST-70 build coming??? Inquiring minds want to know. :)

Offline rollo

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Re: VTA ST-70
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2017, 08:00:15 AM »
Hey Brap good to see you here again. Did not know you could build. So cool to have that knowledge and skill. Will be following your build.



charles
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