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steve
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« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2017, 06:51:45 PM »

I don't think it's weird at all. It is just more complicated that most people realize or at least are willing to admit.

Over my years in this hobby I have dealt with many measurement objectivists who would say that there was no difference between two components because the measured the same. And when a while bunch of us listened and heard the same differences we were told it was all in our heads because the components "couldn't" sound different.

My answer to that was always if we hear a difference that you can't measure it the answer is not that the difference does not exist but rather that you are measuring the wrong things.

Yep, got to be careful what forums you frequent and their agenda.

I have been permanently banned from another forum (positron moniker) while that forum still claims I am a "new member" with 26 posts. Over 1300 deleted though, so they lied about my status and sure did not have any problems with my posts for the past 13 years.

I was banned after I was asked to have any of my data "peer reviewed" by a gent and book author (both number guys). I replied that they only listed sight as a variable confound, and did not even mention cochlea fatigue. Why would I have them peer review my data? I was permanently banned by the next day.

You are certainly correct Tmazz, designing is much more complicated than the numbers people/engineers would have you believe. Although most are only taught numbers in college, don't be fooled, many of their comments are for marketing purposes.    

This forum is a good forum so we need to value it and help it grow if we can.

Cheers
Steve
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 07:13:29 PM by steve » Logged

Pre/Amp/ICs are the only components that can be tested for accuracy/naturalness.

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tmazz
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« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2017, 08:31:56 PM »

When I finished engineering school (EE) I bought myself a copy of the current ITT Radio Engineer's Handbook as a graduation present. One of the most humbling experiences of my life was the first time I opened that book and realized how much I hadn't learned in college.  ROFLMAO
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« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2017, 04:38:14 AM »

While I was building a Transcendent OTL 2 years ago and a VTA-70 this past January, I took out my old EE text books from college just for fun to calculate some values in the circuits from the above.  Cant believe some of the notes on the pages were MINE and how much I forgot!
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« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2017, 06:32:06 AM »

Quote
While I was building a Transcendent OTL 2 years ago and a VTA-70 this past January, I took out my old EE text books from college just for fun to calculate some values in the circuits from the above.  Cant believe some of the notes on the pages were MINE and how much I forgot!
Quote
When I finished engineering school (EE) I bought myself a copy of the current ITT Radio Engineer's Handbook as a graduation present. One of the most humbling experiences of my life was the first time I opened that book and realized how much I hadn't learned in college.  ROFLMAO

My apologies Gentlemen as I did not know you had EE degrees.
I assumed what I should not have.

Fortunately, the public still can benefit from my mistake by our posts.

Cheers and again my apology.
Steve
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 06:49:31 AM by steve » Logged

Pre/Amp/ICs are the only components that can be tested for accuracy/naturalness.

Steve Sammet
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« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2017, 06:39:42 AM »

No apology required!
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« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2017, 07:04:28 AM »

Subjective audiophiles are more like scientists, with open minds, heightened perception, willing to allow whatever they observe, excited and fun to note new observations. They believe in the unknown and fund their own experiments to explore it. Science never concludes, and there is never, ever a "scientific consensus." If there's a consensus then it's not science. A consensus like "cables don't matter," "feedback phase doesn't matter," "audiophiles are fools."  A consensus closes the discussion. It says that because most people whose opinion is judged by the bureaucracy to be valid agree that the world is flat or witches must burn then that is truth. Of course it isn't truth and that proves consensus is just closed minded religious belief.

Engineers and their closed-minded followers make these judgmental statements all the time. They work on problems using the consensus knowledge that is agreed by everyone in their field to be true. They are solving problems using the tools allowed by the system. They must work within the consensus even if it's not true. A person who can function in this world must be able to shut off the truth gene and just get 'er done without caring about truth. After 30 years of habitually filtering out scientific wonder they become incapable of using that muscle even if they want to. So they resist and become cemented to the old way of thinking and ignored by open minded scientific minds who look to the future and learning new things.

Most audio equipment is designed by engineer types, because the subjective audiophiles who contract them do not possess the engineering tools needed to make the stuff themselves. A combination of open minded visionary management and moneymen with scientists possessing engineering skills makes the best audio gear, or any other product for that matter. This is where you get the society changing products.  With a culture of open minded discovery, nothing is too crazy to consider, close minded dogma is rejected. Human resources is the hardest working department in the company.
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« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2017, 07:57:07 AM »

  Well written Richidoo.


charles
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« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2017, 03:28:34 PM »

By the way, there is a large group of "engineers" that work together at what used to be Hydrogen Audio forums, maybe it still exists, and who are affiliated with a large corporation. They are heavily involved in attempting to shape the audio public's opinions.

They tend to spread out to various forums. I have dealt directly with them in the past, as I have previously posted in other forums at AN, and I have recently found a few more in the past year. If anyone is interested they can PM me for their names.

Cheers
Steve
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Pre/Amp/ICs are the only components that can be tested for accuracy/naturalness.

Steve Sammet
SAS Audio Labs
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sasaudio@omnilec.com
Ph: 309-263-0736
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steve
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« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2017, 08:30:22 AM »

By the way, there is a large group of "engineers" that work together at what used to be Hydrogen Audio forums, maybe it still exists, and who are affiliated with a large corporation. They are heavily involved in attempting to shape the audio public's opinions.

They tend to spread out to various forums. I have dealt directly with them in the past, as I have previously posted in other forums at AN, and I have recently found a few more in the past year. If anyone is interested they can PM me for their names.

Cheers
Steve

Forgot to add that I found out that one or more in the group have patents, thus royalties; so a vested financial interest in the numbers only position rather than the honesty and learning mode that Rich described in his fine post.

As an example of vested interests, several of these numbers/"scientific" guys provided false information about study setups etc. to discredit the study. As one example, one PhD claimed headphone use (so bone conduction) when super tweeters were actually used some 8 feet away.

Cheers
Steve
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 08:44:00 AM by steve » Logged

Pre/Amp/ICs are the only components that can be tested for accuracy/naturalness.

Steve Sammet
SAS Audio Labs
http://www.sasaudiolabs.com/pream11a.htm
sasaudio@omnilec.com
Ph: 309-263-0736
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rollo
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« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2017, 03:58:46 PM »

By the way, there is a large group of "engineers" that work together at what used to be Hydrogen Audio forums, maybe it still exists, and who are affiliated with a large corporation. They are heavily involved in attempting to shape the audio public's opinions.

They tend to spread out to various forums. I have dealt directly with them in the past, as I have previously posted in other forums at AN, and I have recently found a few more in the past year. If anyone is interested they can PM me for their names.

Cheers
Steve

Forgot to add that I found out that one or more in the group have patents, thus royalties; so a vested financial interest in the numbers only position rather than the honesty and learning mode that Rich described in his fine post.

As an example of vested interests, several of these numbers/"scientific" guys provided false information about study setups etc. to discredit the study. As one example, one PhD claimed headphone use (so bone conduction) when super tweeters were actually used some 8 feet away.

Cheers
Steve

  Can you say GLOBAL WARMING. Not in agreement, then NO FUNDING, Hmmm scientists eh.


charles
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steve
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« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2017, 08:44:16 PM »

By the way, there is a large group of "engineers" that work together at what used to be Hydrogen Audio forums, maybe it still exists, and who are affiliated with a large corporation. They are heavily involved in attempting to shape the audio public's opinions.

They tend to spread out to various forums. I have dealt directly with them in the past, as I have previously posted in other forums at AN, and I have recently found a few more in the past year. If anyone is interested they can PM me for their names.

Cheers
Steve

Forgot to add that I found out that one or more in the group have patents, thus royalties; so a vested financial interest in the numbers only position rather than the honesty and learning mode that Rich described in his fine post.

As an example of vested interests, several of these numbers/"scientific" guys provided false information about study setups etc. to discredit the study. As one example, one PhD claimed headphone use (so bone conduction) when super tweeters were actually used some 8 feet away.

Cheers
Steve

  Can you say GLOBAL WARMING. Not in agreement, then NO FUNDING, Hmmm scientists eh.


charles

Maybe it is late, but I don't understand your point.

Cheers
Steve
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Pre/Amp/ICs are the only components that can be tested for accuracy/naturalness.

Steve Sammet
SAS Audio Labs
http://www.sasaudiolabs.com/pream11a.htm
sasaudio@omnilec.com
Ph: 309-263-0736
Retired.
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