Author Topic: Line Arrays  (Read 13587 times)

Offline steve

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Re: Line Arrays
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2017, 09:48:38 PM »
Thanks for the encouragement fellas. I will post some pics.

Just wondering how things, any tests, are going Rich?

Cheers

Steve
Steve Sammet (retired, but manufacturing "V" ics again)

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Offline richidoo

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Re: Line Arrays
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2017, 07:36:15 PM »
Thanks so much for caring to ask, Steve!   :D 

Yeah, it's coming along slowly. I ordered driver mounting parts this week, 256 screws and T-nuts.  Pity the poor bastard who has to assemble it all! I tweaked the design a little, made the baffle narrower, footprint more square. It's final now. I bought the lumber, figured out the cutting plan. Waiting on weather, schedule and my energy to coincide to begin.

I plan to use my Neurochrome Audio Parallel-86 composite chip amps based on LM4780 and LM49710 ICs which share a feedback loop. I still have to build them. They are the high-power version of the Modulus-86 amps I have and love. They make 120W>4R with extremely low THD all the way to max power. It should be enough.

More to come

Offline Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Line Arrays
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2017, 07:46:17 PM »
Thanks for the encouragement fellas. I will post some pics.
Bump.  8)
Not a professional speaker builder, just a guy who likes building things.
Thanks for the trumpet Rich!
(Where's the trumpet???)

Offline steve

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Re: Line Arrays
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2017, 09:09:39 PM »
Thanks so much for caring to ask, Steve!   :D 

Yeah, it's coming along slowly. I ordered driver mounting parts this week, 256 screws and T-nuts.  Pity the poor bastard who has to assemble it all! I tweaked the design a little, made the baffle narrower, footprint more square. It's final now. I bought the lumber, figured out the cutting plan. Waiting on weather, schedule and my energy to coincide to begin.

I plan to use my Neurochrome Audio Parallel-86 composite chip amps based on LM4780 and LM49710 ICs which share a feedback loop. I still have to build them. They are the high-power version of the Modulus-86 amps I have and love. They make 120W>4R with extremely low THD all the way to max power. It should be enough.

More to come

I think I can understand Rich. It does take time and better to do a job well than half way.

We are still very interested in the results of your project.

Cheers

Steve
Steve Sammet (retired, but manufacturing "V" ics again)

SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio 25 W Triode Reference Amplifier
Test Spkrs
"V" ICs
10 parallel 18 ga. speaker wires

Offline richidoo

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Re: Line Arrays
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2017, 08:37:49 PM »
I cut all the wood parts for the speaker cabinets. I have all the parts on hand now. Need to cut driver holes in the baffle and drill the internal wiring holes then I'm ready for glue up. I'll post some pics soon.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Line Arrays
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2017, 10:45:11 AM »
Pics:
1. Raw 4x8x .160" "Ecoboard" hardboard from Brazil via Home depot (3/16" nominal)

2. Setting up to cut the big sheets down to size. The 2x4s lift the boards up off the ground for blade clearance.

3. Ready to cut. A 4' level makes a good fence.

4. Sheets stacked. The tall ones will be sliced into thinner strips to make the array walls. The short ones are cut up into 8x8 squares to make the chamber separating/reinforcing panels that go inside the box.

5. Halfway setup to cut the array side wall panels.

6. Custom jig to cut the front baffle angle from the 8" square internal braces.  See my trash can outfeed supports?

7. Array sides stacked up inside. Ready for gluing. The side panels have 45 degree miter edges on one side, and the front baffle strips have mirrored 45 degree miters on both long edges. That was a bit of a cluster to setup the cut because once one edge is miter cut then the sharp edge doesn't slide easily along the fence, it wants to slide under the fence edge. So I had to make a custom fence that extended down into a miter groove below the saw surface. The parts aren't perfect, but they bend pretty easily a little, so I think it'll work out.

8. 64 internal braces stacked. They are all virtually identical thanks to the jig. Ready for drilling 5 small holes in each for the hookup wiring.

Still do do: cut the driver holes with 3" hole saw (perfect size)
drill the mounting screwholes in the baffles
glue on the T nuts to the inside of the baffles
glue up the boxes
Flush trim the boxes to final shape
sand, paint, wire and mount drivers

Two boxes 54" each which will stack floor to make the ceiling height of ~9'.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 11:04:00 AM by richidoo »

Offline rollo

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Re: Line Arrays
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2017, 04:29:16 PM »
Ain't no stopping you now go get em richidoo. Sounds interesting keep it coming

charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm - Aqua Acoustic Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm Speakers - PI Audio Uberbuss - Triode Wire Labs- Kuzma - Furutech - Audio Hungry Qualiton - Fritz Carrera speakers -Gigawatt-Arion

Offline steve

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Re: Line Arrays
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2017, 08:54:16 AM »
Pics:
1. Raw 4x8x .160" "Ecoboard" hardboard from Brazil via Home depot (3/16" nominal)

2. Setting up to cut the big sheets down to size. The 2x4s lift the boards up off the ground for blade clearance.

3. Ready to cut. A 4' level makes a good fence.

4. Sheets stacked. The tall ones will be sliced into thinner strips to make the array walls. The short ones are cut up into 8x8 squares to make the chamber separating/reinforcing panels that go inside the box.

5. Halfway setup to cut the array side wall panels.

6. Custom jig to cut the front baffle angle from the 8" square internal braces.  See my trash can outfeed supports?

7. Array sides stacked up inside. Ready for gluing. The side panels have 45 degree miter edges on one side, and the front baffle strips have mirrored 45 degree miters on both long edges. That was a bit of a cluster to setup the cut because once one edge is miter cut then the sharp edge doesn't slide easily along the fence, it wants to slide under the fence edge. So I had to make a custom fence that extended down into a miter groove below the saw surface. The parts aren't perfect, but they bend pretty easily a little, so I think it'll work out.

8. 64 internal braces stacked. They are all virtually identical thanks to the jig. Ready for drilling 5 small holes in each for the hookup wiring.

Still do do: cut the driver holes with 3" hole saw (perfect size)
drill the mounting screwholes in the baffles
glue on the T nuts to the inside of the baffles
glue up the boxes
Flush trim the boxes to final shape
sand, paint, wire and mount drivers

Two boxes 54" each which will stack floor to make the ceiling height of ~9'.

Sounds like you have all under control Rich. I wish I could even approximated being as good as you when it comes to wood working.

My simple large box for my test speakers were done by a professional, who still has all ten digits.  :rofl:

Cheers
Steve

« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 08:57:16 AM by steve »
Steve Sammet (retired, but manufacturing "V" ics again)

SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio 25 W Triode Reference Amplifier
Test Spkrs
"V" ICs
10 parallel 18 ga. speaker wires

Offline richidoo

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Re: Line Arrays
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2017, 01:28:52 PM »
Baffle holes cut today, 64 in all. Will need a new 3" hole saw after this.  :D

Offline Tinnitus Towers

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Re: Line Arrays
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2017, 07:16:55 AM »
Hi,
I saw your post about your corner loaded line arrays and it made me join the forum :D

I recently built a set of line arrays Towers using the wonderful TC9s and modeled after Roger Russell's IDS-25. His array is 25 drivers tall, wired with 5 groups of 5 wired parallel and all groups together in series, and sells for $18,000  :shock:

I wired my array with 23 drivers per side (basement ceiling constraints) with 8 drivers in parallel and 3 sets in series. I made a dummy driver by using an 8 ohm resistor since I would be 1 driver short of the 8x3 configuration.

The forum member from diyaudio.com named wesayso, I saw you mentioned him in your post, he used insulation as a stuffing material and I wish I had. I only lined the walls with acoustic foam and think I could have gotten a few hz lower with insulation fully stuffed. Oh well, just more work for me to do later.

I made my Towers out of 3/4" mdf and they are 5.5"x 11.5"x78.5" without the bases which add about 1.75". They are simple rectangles for the ease of construction. I used a 3" hole saw as well but the one I was using didn't quite make the holes big enough by about 1/32" maybe 1/16". So, I had to take my dremel and sand each hole with a sanding bit to get all of the drivers to fit. I have bracing every 4 drivers since I didn't think there would be much flex for how thick these are compared to the tiny full range woofers. I assembled them with crimp terminals (huge time saver) and slapped some ribbon stripe mahogany veneer from veneersupplies.com (best place for veneer BTW) and bam had some very nice towers. Overall build probably costs about $800.

Listening impressions: just to give you even more motivation to finish these.... best speakers I have built to this day! Once you listen to a line array you will be addicted to them for life. The absolute lack of distortion is mind blowing, at any volume. Mine need big EQ down low but that may be from my room being a terrible audio environment. Around 20db is what I was working with to get +3db over flat in the bass region. I was using a inuke 3000 to drive them and was running out of headroom quick... the bass sounded so smooth with the line arrays and it's almost a mind trick hearing this clear bass coming from such small drivers. Mind range is excellent and the highs are so nice to listen to that I experience no listening fatigue whatsoever. I sometimes fall asleep when listening to these speakers for an extended period of time. I do not see myself building any more point source speakers in the future unless they are for someone else.

However, since I was running out of headroom with so much EQ in the low end and not wanting to constantly dump all that power on the TC9 voice coils, I decided to make a pair of stereo subwoofers to handle the low end. I mean, it's what they were designed to do... so I picked up 2 15" Dayton HF subwoofers from parts express when they were on sale and built some big sealed boxes for them. 18"x18"x23" with 3/4" mdf walls and double thick baffle for 1.5". Fully stuffed with insulation (after making that mistake with the towers). I cross them at about 200 hz with a 8db shelf filter boost and I am so glad I did. Now I have the power to blast new age songs and the only lights that come up on my amp are for the subs. The TC9s shall live a long life! I was surprised how well the stereo subs blend with the mains, I don't even realize they are there. I initially tried pairing the towers with a BIC F12 sub I have but it took away from the stereo imagining. I am not at all disappointed with this set up and have no reason to ever replace my mains again. (My subs are still unfinished but will probably receive the same Beene as the towers) I am using a minidsp 2x4 HD for processing.

I assure you that you will love your Towers, whether they are in the corner or out in the open. If you have any questions, I can try to answer them, but I'm only 23 so somewhat a noob at audio but I have a good idea. I am using a minidsp 2x4 HD for processing with PEQ only. FIR is yet to come.

Didn't want to jack your post, but I just wanted to share how well your towers are going to turn out.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 07:39:35 AM by Tinnitus Towers »

Offline rollo

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Re: Line Arrays
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2017, 08:09:20 AM »
  Wow cool stuff guys.

charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Line Arrays
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2017, 11:03:09 AM »
Hi,
I saw your post about your corner loaded line arrays and it made me join the forum :D

Welcome to AudioNervosa Tinnitus Towers!! Thanks for describing your system and how much you like it. That is inspiring to me, thanks. I've heard a few multiway arrays, never really been impressed with them, but they were all passive crossover 2 ways. I've had the urge to build these full rangers since I saw John Murphy's design.  But I'm glad I waited until TC9s became popular. Charles (rollo, posted above) has Pipedream line arrays he always raves about them, so that's another inspiration to trying these.

Quote
I wired my array with 23 drivers per side (basement ceiling constraints) with 8 drivers in parallel and 3 sets in series. I made a dummy driver by using an 8 ohm resistor since I would be 1 driver short of the 8x3 configuration.

That is clever idea, the extra resistor.  :thumb:

Quote
The forum member from diyaudio.com named wesayso, I saw you mentioned him in your post, he used insulation as a stuffing material and I wish I had. I only lined the walls with acoustic foam and think I could have gotten a few hz lower with insulation fully stuffed. Oh well, just more work for me to do later.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do about acoustic damping yet. I already have large enough volume, full .1 sf each, so I don't need full stuffing to increase apparent volume. Boosting bass electronically simulates lower Q that you would get from more stuffing anyway, so that's moot. We only need to be concerned with impedance blips that might affect FR. fluid's recent impedance plot with no stufffing looked pretty harmless to me so I'm not worried about it. I prefer minimal damping of the cone motion, to maximize transient response, so I would use only a little stuffing, if any. Lots of stuffing increases friction of the air moving through the stuffing, on the inhale and exhale. So the stuffing prevents free motion of the cone, dulling transients, robbing the feeling of life from the music. I'm not so concerned with minor impedance bumps if I have very strong electrical damping in the amp (low output impedance amp) and dsp to correct the bad FR bumps. The impedance bumps come from acoustic reflections inside the cabinet. That can only happen at wavelengths equal or smaller than the inside box dimensions. Below that freq it is just standing wave, pressure pulse, no reflections, no resonance, no impedance blip. My drivers each have their own chamber ~3" tall, so reflection wavelengths are very small, 8" is the largest and the one I'm concerned about, that makes fundamental resonance at 1700Hz. That should be easily damped with 1" FG or cotton on the reflection surfaces.  The 3" vertical height of each chamber resonates at 4500Hz. I guess that's more of a concern and I should think more about that. I'll experiment with it in a mock up box. Thanks for raising that. 1/4 foam or cotton insulation should kill that enough.

Quote
I used a 3" hole saw as well but the one I was using didn't quite make the holes big enough by about 1/32" maybe 1/16". So, I had to take my dremel and sand each hole with a sanding bit to get all of the drivers to fit.

My hole saw is Milwaukee brand, it cuts a hair too big, so perfect fit for TC9, lays flat, no wobble. I did a test hole a few months ago before the main run. Lots of work cutting all those holes!


Quote
I assembled them with crimp terminals (huge time saver)

Where did you get the terminals and what sizes did you use? I've been thinking about doing that, but my audionervosa perfectionism drives me toward soldering. I always thought that a dab of silver conductivity paste like Walker SST or similar should make slide on terminals work as well as solder. What do other ANs think about this?

Quote
and slapped some ribbon stripe mahogany veneer from veneersupplies.com (best place for veneer BTW) and bam had some very nice towers. Overall build probably costs about $800.

I bookmarked that link for future reference. My build cost a little more with the more drivers, but similarly cheap. I like that!

Quote
Listening impressions: just to give you even more motivation to finish these.... best speakers I have built to this day! Once you listen to a line array you will be addicted to them for life. The absolute lack of distortion is mind blowing, at any volume.

That's awesome. I can't wait to hear mine. Part of the reason I'm trying these is cuz people said how great the bass is, and they can play loud without getting edgy. I love to play modern symphonies and big bands really loud, reminds me when I used to sit in the orchestra playing trumpet. But I'm tired of paying 10k for speakers that can handle it without distortion (they still do distort anyway - so how much do I have to pay? Hence DIY, and hence line array with huge headroom and low distortion.

Quote
Mine need big EQ down low but that may be from my room being a terrible audio environment. Around 20db is what I was working with to get +3db over flat in the bass region.

That's about right, judging from FR measurements of the uncorrected array, like wesayso. But 20dB boost is a lot of power. I think he figured he needed 250W to push his array to linear Xmax. You want headroom in the amp too, like you said. Since this is full range you don't want to listen to inexpensive class D amp playing at full power trying to play bass and treble at same time. The amp distortion rises near max power and makes the mids and treble sounds very distorted. I'm installing my arrays in a pretty small room, and in corner mounted, so there will be a lot of LF room gain. I'm going to start with NeuroChrome Parallel-86 chip amp because I love the sound of the Mod-86 design and I already have the PCBs and chips. It makes 120W>4. My wiring will make 4 ohms load. If that's not enough power, maybe NCore 500, like Nord. Or a custom DIY amp from my local friend Sol.

Quote
I was using a inuke 3000 to drive them and was running out of headroom quick... the bass sounded so smooth with the line arrays and it's almost a mind trick hearing this clear bass coming from such small drivers. Mind range is excellent and the highs are so nice to listen to that I experience no listening fatigue whatsoever. I sometimes fall asleep when listening to these speakers for an extended period of time. I do not see myself building any more point source speakers in the future unless they are for someone else.

That's what I'm hoping for too. I don't want to notice the speakers, I don't want to hear the "details." I just want the music fully exposed for me to choose how I listen at any moment. I don't want to be held hostage to the sound quality by speakers.

Quote
However, since I was running out of headroom with so much EQ in the low end and not wanting to constantly dump all that power on the TC9 voice coils, I decided to make a pair of stereo subwoofers to handle the low end.

TC9 voice coils can handle the distributed power no problem, but 3" drivers will always have limited acoustic impedance, no matter how many in a straight line, it's still only 3" wide and the air molecules can easily get away from that small cone when it is accelerating so slowly at LF. Only large driver cone can grip the air firmly at LF. The air in the middle of big cone can't escape. So bass detail is always better with larger diameter drivers.

wesayso feels the need for subs for his HT use, maybe for more LF volume in his big room. But he said it's OK without subs for music. I think once he gets the subs playing he will like them for music too, because bass detail, slam and tonal balance at very low volumes will all be much better. Adding that bottom octave makes such a huge difference in music listening, especially at low volume, late night listening. I'm doing this to move my primary solitary deep dive listening excursions out of the main family room of the house and into a small door closable room, officially named "the weird room." I want to be able to listen to a symphony at 3am if I can't sleep, and I want to hear the bass cuz that's what it's all about. So I may end up adding subs later too. I have 3 of the 6 walls in the weird room are exterior walls, so I might do a few infinite baffle subs in there for distributed bass. But Maybe the arrays will be enough.

Quote
I mean, it's what they were designed to do... so I picked up 2 15" Dayton HF subwoofers from parts express when they were on sale and built some big sealed boxes for them. 18"x18"x23" with 3/4" mdf walls and double thick baffle for 1.5". Fully stuffed with insulation (after making that mistake with the towers). I cross them at about 200 hz with a 8db shelf filter boost and I am so glad I did. Now I have the power to blast new age songs and the only lights that come up on my amp are for the subs. The TC9s shall live a long life! I was surprised how well the stereo subs blend with the mains, I don't even realize they are there. I initially tried pairing the towers with a BIC F12 sub I have but it took away from the stereo imagining. I am not at all disappointed with this set up and have no reason to ever replace my mains again. (My subs are still unfinished but will probably receive the same Beene as the towers) I am using a minidsp 2x4 HD for processing.

Sounds like a great setup. I agree stereo subs needed for high end music playback, especially acoustic music where LF acoustic information is very much in stereo.

Quote
I assure you that you will love your Towers, whether they are in the corner or out in the open. If you have any questions, I can try to answer them, but I'm only 23 so somewhat a noob at audio but I have a good idea. I am using a minidsp 2x4 HD for processing with PEQ only. FIR is yet to come.

Thanks, I may take you up on that as I try to get mine working. You have a lot of audio knowledge for a young person, sorry don't mean to sound condescending, but it is with respect. I'm a young person too, never grew up! Do you have electronics background?

Quote
Didn't want to jack your post, but I just wanted to share how well your towers are going to turn out.

You are welcome to hijack any thread you want here at AN, that's what we're here for. Everyone has something valuable to add. There's no cliques here. All constructive posts are welcome.
Thanks again!
Rich

Offline Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Line Arrays
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2017, 04:12:15 PM »
Welcome to the sickness!  :thumb:
Not a professional speaker builder, just a guy who likes building things.
Thanks for the trumpet Rich!
(Where's the trumpet???)

Offline Tinnitus Towers

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Re: Line Arrays
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2017, 07:41:09 PM »
Quote from: richidoo
Lots of stuffing increases friction of the air moving through the stuffing, on the inhale and exhale. So the stuffing prevents free motion of the cone, dulling transients, robbing the feeling of life from the music. I'm not so concerned with minor impedance bumps if I have very strong electrical damping in the amp (low output impedance amp) and dsp to correct the bad FR bumps. The impedance bumps come from acoustic reflections inside the cabinet. That can only happen at wavelengths equal or smaller than the inside box dimensions.

I only say I regret not using insulation to stuff them is from the many impedance sweep tests that wesayso took from his tiny test woofer enclosure. Its hard to find with the forum being over 200 pages :shock:. There was a small bump he found, being very small but still there, and the insulation gave the best sweep to eliminate it. Considering how small of Xmax the TC9 has and with so many drivers, I don't think the pressure of the cabinet will be much of an issue or air friction. All speculation...

Quote from: richidoo
Where did you get the terminals and what sizes did you use? I've been thinking about doing that, but my audionervosa perfectionism drives me toward soldering. I always thought that a dab of silver conductivity paste like Walker SST or similar should make slide on terminals work as well as solder.

As a huge fan of parts express, I get all of my speaker components there I can, which would include the crimp terminals. The terminal sizes of the TC9 are .110" (3/32") and 3/16". They come in packs of 50 pcs for under $5! I used 18 AWG wire throughout with two wires going to each crimp. The crimps were size 14-16 and two 18 AWG wires fit perfectly. If I ever had a crimp with only one wire going to it then I would just strip twice as much jacketing off and fold it over to be the same amount of copper strands as 2 wires if that makes sense.

Quote from: richidoo
I bookmarked that link for future reference (veneersupplies.com).

Seriously best site for veneering. He is named Joe the Woodworker and has a bunch of guides of how to apply different veneers to different substrates and all of his glues and tools are better than anything else on the market. After buying raw zebrawood and paper backed ribbon stripe mahogany, I like the paper backed a lot more. So much easier to get flat and you can use contact cement with it! His contact cement has wonderful reviews. I have only gotten to trying cold pressing and reactivating regular titebond wood glue with an iron. Ironing is easier between the two.

Quote from: richidoo
I just want the music fully exposed for me to choose how I listen at any moment. I don't want to be held hostage to the sound quality by speakers.

The thing I like about the minidsp 2x4 HD is that it has 10 PEQ bands on both input and output channels. So, I EQ'd flat with the output channel PEQ and X-over. This way I can use the PEQ on the inputs to apply any house curve I desire. I checked my configuration and X-over point is actually closer to 300 hz. I attached the PEQ I have on the towers for a reference of what you are looking at before the low end boost and to show you how poor my room is since the TC9 has a pretty flat response. My digital processing experience is extremely limited, about 3 months...

Quote from: richidoo
TC9 voice coils can handle the distributed power no problem, but 3" drivers will always have limited acoustic impedance, no matter how many in a straight line, it's still only 3" wide and the air molecules can easily get away from that small cone when it is accelerating so slowly at LF. Only large driver cone can grip the air firmly at LF. The air in the middle of big cone can't escape. So bass detail is always better with larger diameter drivers.

I may make 2 miniDSP profiles to be able to switch from full range and with subs. What you said is great insight of how low frequencies work better with larger drivers, very interesting.

Quote from: richidoo
Do you have electronics background?

Not really. My degree is in Mechanical Engineering and both of my grandpas have very good woodworking skills. One of them has made all of the furniture in my bedroom out of maple and cherry. So, after using my dad's old JVC Zero 5's with real ribbon tweeters, I wondered if I could build some speakers. They have woodworking, engineering, and something that will last forever(justifying the cost) all in one package. So, that's how I got started. Learned a lot along the way and the hard part is trying to explain it to other people and make it sound interesting!  :rofl:

Offline richidoo

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Re: Line Arrays
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2017, 08:49:21 PM »
I drilled all the screw holes today. twhs

My daughter asked me "why I'm putting so many holes in that wood?" It was easy to satisfy her curiosity ("moar speakers,"  :roll: ) but far more difficult to answer that same question for myself. This used to be about Stan Kenton and Antonin Dvorak. What is it about now?

Which led to further contemplation:
Staying in the safe zone: How crazy can I get before I notice that I'm crazy?
Going beyond the event horizon: How crazy is too crazy to know I'm crazy?
What happens inside the speaker building black hole? Do I really want to know?