Author Topic: You know what grinds my gears?  (Read 59146 times)

Offline topround

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2015, 02:05:24 PM »
actually ham is more like 8 to 10 dollars a pound retail.
now if ham was 80 to 100 dollars a pound then we know we are being ripped off.

Audio prices are in no way even closely related to audio prices, food is a commodity and tied to a free market, based on competition(to a degree).
Audio is tied to no market except psychological, sort of like the diamond market, completley made up, and not tied to anything. Women like shiny rocks, the marketing guys jacked up the prices and the women see it as a status symbol. We guys like women so we spend the money to get the real prize!!
How many 50,000$ amps get sold used for massive, massive discounts, why because there was no real market value assigned to it in the first place.
Yes some people will spend the big bucks on some high end gear, but make no mistake in no way is it tied to any real value.
Look at the Marten speakers for $550,000 dollars, you know it doesn't cost anywhere near that to make.
You could buy a house, a yacht, a business, a plane and a shit load more for that much money....
just sayin.........
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline Packfill

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2015, 05:17:20 PM »
i agree on the ham.
i see the audio a bit differently.

the diamond business is a monopoly run by debeers.  they make a lot of money.  high end audio is the opposite.  there are many, many players and only a few make a really good living.  i have always advocated that the best thing that could happen for both producers and consumers of audio is if 80% of the producers went out of business.  i don't by any means want to keep out small, new innovative companies.  i just want the companies big or small, old or new, that sell inferior goods at their pricepoint to exit the market.  

the high prices of highend audio is due largely to their low volumes.  very few of those high priced units are being sold.  and yes, those few companies that do sell a decent amount (still incredibly low by any manufacturing standard) are the lucky beneficiaries of that high price umbrella set by the 80% that are barely surviving.

If 80% of the companies were driven out, the good producers would see their sales rise 5x -- with that they would have more money for r&d and the ability to source their material at lower costs.  

consumers would also benefit.  it is easier to decide what to buy with fewer and better options to audition.  i also believe that prices would come down because consumers could bargain with more knowledge and some of the savings from economies of scale would trickle to consumers.

one more point about too much choice needs to be said again and somewhat differently.  even if you are willing to spend up for the high end stuff, its very hard to know what to buy if you are looking to buy one piece in the audio chain.  the sound you get is the interaction of the whole system.  and even a whole system will sound differently in your room than the store.  so in home demos are the way to go.  but that's not easily accomplished with bulky gear costing in the 5 and 6 figures, not to mention doing it 5-10 times.

i'll say it again.  central to this process is a critical, informed press.  only they have the ability to sample many products without buying them and the voice to get the word out.  even then you would also have to figure out which reviewers to trust and have your taste.  honestly, its kind of hopeless.

BUT in the end prices would not come down that much. audio seems, and is in many ways, grossly overpriced because we see it as a manufactured good, and audio companies are constantly hyping their technology.  in our lifetimes we have seen the price of manufactured goods and technology decline tremendously in real and even absolute terms.  

but high end audio is not priced like a mass market manufactured good and never will be.  high end audio has more in common with the furniture business than technology.   you can buy a chair for $5-50 bucks at the mall.  or you can go to roche-bobois and spend $500-5000.
(indeed, in audio the "box" often costs more than the electronics inside of it).

all of which is to say, that the pricing in high end audio is not that irrational. its the nature of any small batch luxury goods market plus an audio industry that is in a sad way with many, many small players with a crappy cost structure going after a small, declining and dying market.

the last thing i will say, for now, is that the really expensive stuff gets a disproportionate amount of press and attention from us relative to sales.  so we are worked up into a state of frenzy beyond what the problem really merits.

if the truth was told more often and more loudly about how some of the mid-priced gear (still expensive but not insane) gets you 98% of what you want, then we could more calmly see the uber gear with dispassion as largely irrelevant museum pieces.  
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 05:40:04 PM by Packfill »

Offline Triode Pete

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2015, 05:56:43 PM »
i agree on the ham.
i see the audio a bit differently.

the diamond business is a monopoly run by debeers.  they make a lot of money.  high end audio is the opposite.  there are many, many players and only a few make a really good living.  i have always advocated that the best thing that could happen for both producers and consumers of audio is if 80% of the producers went out of business.  i don't by any means want to keep out small, new innovative companies.  i just want the companies big or small, old or new, that sell inferior goods at their pricepoint to exit the market.  

the high prices of highend audio is due largely to their low volumes.  very few of those high priced units are being sold.  and yes, those few companies that do sell a decent amount (still incredibly low by any manufacturing standard) are the lucky beneficiaries of that high price umbrella set by the 80% that are barely surviving.

If 80% of the companies were driven out, the good producers would see their sales rise 5x -- with that they would have more money for r&d and the ability to source their material at lower costs.  

consumers would also benefit.  it is easier to decide what to buy with fewer and better options to audition.  i also believe that prices would come down because consumers could bargain with more knowledge and some of the savings from economies of scale would trickle to consumers.

one more point about too much choice needs to be said again and somewhat differently.  even if you are willing to spend up for the high end stuff, its very hard to know what to buy if you are looking to buy one piece in the audio chain.  the sound you get is the interaction of the whole system.  and even a whole system will sound differently in your room than the store.  so in home demos are the way to go.  but that's not easily accomplished with bulky gear costing in the 5 and 6 figures, not to mention doing it 5-10 times.

i'll say it again.  central to this process is a critical, informed press.  only they have the ability to sample many products without buying them and the voice to get the word out.  even then you would also have to figure out which reviewers to trust and have your taste.  honestly, its kind of hopeless.

BUT in the end prices would not come down that much. audio seems, and is in many ways, grossly overpriced because we see it as a manufactured good, and audio companies are constantly hyping their technology.  in our lifetimes we have seen the price of manufactured goods and technology decline tremendously in real and even absolute terms.  

but high end audio is not priced like a mass market manufactured good and never will be.  high end audio has more in common with the furniture business than technology.   you can buy a chair for $5-50 bucks at the mall.  or you can go to roche-bobois and spend $500-5000.
(indeed, in audio the "box" often costs more than the electronics inside of it).

all of which is to say, that the pricing in high end audio is not that irrational. its the nature of any small batch luxury goods market plus an audio industry that is in a sad way with many, many small players with a crappy cost structure going after a small, declining and dying market.

the last thing i will say, for now, is that the really expensive stuff gets a disproportionate amount of press and attention from us relative to sales.  so we are worked up into a state of frenzy beyond what the problem really merits.

if the truth was told more often and more loudly about how some of the mid-priced gear (still expensive but not insane) gets you 98% of what you want, then we could more calmly see the uber gear with dispassion as largely irrelevant museum pieces.  

Well said... I agree!!!

Cheers,
Pete
www.TriodeWireLabs.com
WT Reference/Lyra Titan I
Quadratic Audio MC-1
Custom BorderPatrol preamp with phono & line stage
Innuos Statement Server
BorderPatrol S20 EXD w/EXS PS
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UberBUSS

Offline topround

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2015, 08:05:58 PM »


honestly I don't see how a business model approaching a monopoly would lower prices. If people are presented with less choice, then the need to lower prices is removed.

I think we all know what the problems are in this hobby, probably similar problems exist in other hobbies as well.

Of course we all have the choice to not buy crazy priced gear for lack of funds or because of a set of priorities that makes us choose not to.

The real problem is the lack of new audiophiles, at least audiophiles in the sense we know it, the ones that buy lots of gear.

New technologies will change the face of audio as we know it, and along with it the sensibilities of those that choose to embrace the hobby.

So yes , perhaps the reason some gear is so stratospherically priced is because of low volumes, and they need to have high prices to make up for small sales numbers, but I think in the future most of THOSE companies will be gone, leaving larger companies to have the market to themselves, and that might drive prices down.
So maybe you are right, less choice will bring prices down.

 it is all speculation right now, but if poor show attendance numbers are an indication of anything , it might be that we are seeing the shift right now in front of us.
I believe in balance, things tend to go out of balance in one direction, then come back to center out of necessity, eventually.
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline Packfill

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2015, 08:24:03 PM »
we are not in any danger of approaching a monopoly, nor was i advocating one.  the economic conditions for a monopoly are just not present in the audio industry.  and in my dream scenario there would still be lots of companies.

right now we are in a situation where manufacturers not only do not compete on price, it is actually seen as normal to raise your prices with every new product.

i can't wait for the day when a widely respected manufacturer joins the 20th century, let alone the 21st, and comes out and says that their new and improved product is less expensive than the last one.   when that becomes the norm we can begin to say that the industry has broken its current fever.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 08:27:24 PM by Packfill »

Offline topround

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2015, 04:26:58 AM »
i agree
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Offline tmazz

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2015, 06:12:04 AM »
You are starting to see it happening already. Most companies in high end audio were founded and run by people who were basically hobbyists to begin with and run them as a noble pursuit, kind of like the old newspaper men. However as the high end approaches 40 years old, many of the "founding fathers" are beginning to leave the industry, whether via retirement or simply passing away. And as they do we are starting to see a trend where some of the bigger and more successful companies are being bought out by larger corporate interests. For example, Classe' was bought out by the B&W Group and Audio Research was bought out by the Fine Sounds group with also owns McIntosh, Wadia and Sonus Faber.

Therse larger groups wil allow costs to be lowered by sharing all of the common corporate overheads among all of the companies of the group and will bring more of a corporate mindset to the running of the companies (hopefully only forma financial and not an engineering perspective.)

And while at least in the short term, I am sure the groups will try to ride the high prices and margins as long as they can, when market forces start to push prices downward at least these groups will have the scale and scope efficiencies in place to be able operate in that new environment, whereas smaller firms that carry the high fixed costs associated with small batch production wll be forced out of business if prices start to shrink.
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline Triode Pete

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2015, 09:00:21 AM »


 it is all speculation right now, but if poor show attendance numbers are an indication of anything , it might be that we are seeing the shift right now in front of us.
I believe in balance, things tend to go out of balance in one direction, then come back to center out of necessity, eventually.


Mike - The REAL reason show attendance is down (at some shows) is that there's TOO MANY SHOWS!

RMAF is down because regional audiophiles (say the Midwest) are now attending AXPONA (which attendance is up) and West Coast people are attending The Show-Newport (attendance is up)... I even know a couple of audiophiles who chose to go the upcoming NYAS '15 in Westchester instead of RMAF... I think there are plenty of audiophiles and even more Headphone Enthusiasts (younger people) that may become audiophiles one day... Look at the resurgence of vinyl... that's the young hipsters driving it!

My $0.02,
Pete
www.TriodeWireLabs.com
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Offline topround

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2015, 01:42:51 PM »
perhaps too many shows, but the shows are so far apart regionally, that maybe that us not a factor.

California, chicago, colorado, ny, maryland, while it seems like a lot they are pretty far apart in miles. Is the california audiophile coming to NY and vice versa?

also that headphones are huge speaks volumes as well I believe.
laptop, amplifier and headphones certainly simplifies things and cuts out a lot of products. If headphones are the trend then there will be a lot less product offerings in the future, the market will not warrant the investment.

Let;s be honest , we are kidding ourselves if we think the hobby is growing. It is definitely changing. Vinyl will lose favor in a few years, as the trend fades.
And re:hipsters, they are trend followers, when the trend turns, so will they...lockstep

Also economics has a lot to do with it as well, with the recent problems with the economy I think many are gun shy to spend significant money on audio gear. That coupled with the fact that cheaper gear is coming out that sounds good will result in a shift.

Most of us own modestly priced gear, I only know one person with crazy expensive very high end  gear, the rest of us have made do quite well I believe with semi normal priced gear.
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline tmazz

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2015, 06:14:45 PM »
perhaps too many shows, but the shows are so far apart regionally, that maybe that us not a factor.

California, chicago, colorado, ny, maryland, while it seems like a lot they are pretty far apart in miles. Is the california audiophile coming to NY and vice versa?


I don't think that the issue is that too many show drive the attendance down directory. I agree that a consumer in CA is unlikey tio not go to a CA show because there are other shows around the country. However; what having all these shows does do is spread the manufacturers too thin. These show are expensive to display in and as a result companies musty pick which ones they will go to. This in turn lowers the number of manufacturers at each show and the lack of big name companies will drive down attendance.
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline topround

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2015, 01:39:17 AM »
I agree...another good point
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline richidoo

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2015, 08:07:02 AM »
"Video killed the radio star," so why buy new radios?

TV has replaced the stereo in the home. Young people aren't willing to invest in today's shitty pop music by buying a nice stereo system, or even midfi as they did in the past when pop music was rewarding. Today's pop music is not compaible with hifi, resolution and low distortion makes it sound worse. Kids know pop music is bad news and they have abandoned it. Pop is for deviants. The only pop that sells is wholesome songs like countryrock and Taylor Swift, but that's not enough to overcome TV. There is no Beatles or Commodores or even Justin Bieber anymore. Kids make their own fun with interactive media - video games and phone life.

The never-ending recession has dealt with much of the excessive pricing of hifi glory days. There will always be wealth in the world that demands ultra-fi, and I believe it benefits everyone. The newest budget gear applies the R&D from ultra-fi and offers excellent value in response to the lack of demand, and the poor economy. There is apparently enough meat on the bones in the budget categories for them to continue developing new products. But I don't think it will last unless kids start listening to music again, until pop music is worth listening to again.  It happened in 2011, so it's not out of the question.

Offline tmazz

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2015, 10:41:51 AM »
The never-ending recession has dealt with much of the excessive pricing of hifi glory days. There will always be wealth in the world that demands ultra-fi, and I believe it benefits everyone.

I agree and look forward to the technology trickle down. However, even the demand for ultra-hi (I like that term  :D) has dropped significantly from what it was in the glory days. And while the ecomony has something to do with it, I think the biggest driver for that decline has been the rise of home theater. 30 years ago an over the top high end system was a big status symbol. And in many cases size mattered. infinity IRS Vs and Wilson WHAMs where the status speakers of choice and many people bought them as showpieces, not because of twhat they could do sound wise. In the mid eighties I bought an amp from a guy who lived in one of the wealthiest sections of Long Island. He had just upgraded to IRSs and Audio Research tube amps and was selling off some Hafler stuff. When I picked up the hafler he proudly took me into ths living room and proclaimed "Aren't those the most amizong things you have ever seen?". Never mentioned about how they sounded or offered to play them for me, but just loved how the looked in his room.  Now if you made your money legally and want to spend it on speakers as artwork, I have no problem with that (hey, I benefited by getting his hand me downs.  :D) But my point is that back then there were a good number of pweople buying ultra-fi equipment for reasons totaly unrelated to sound. But that has all changed in recent years as the stautus eletronics has shifted from 2 channel stereo to fancy home theater equipment. The people who bought purely for the sake of saying they owned it have shifted there focus from who has the biggest speakers, to who has the gibbest flat screan or the fanciest home theater room. And again if that it how they want to spend their money, so be it. But reuducing the pool of potential ultrs fi customers to  only those people who were actually intreested in sound quality lead to a sharp decline in ultra fi sales.
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline topround

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2015, 06:08:22 PM »
BTW  this is a great topic.

It acknowledges that we know something is wrong with the hobby, or is heading in the wrong direction.

Sort of like our country, whether left or right, in our heart of hearts we know something is very wrong.

Rich is 100 percent right, why buy a system for todays music, it is of course shit, but also poorly recorded and made using computers for sound instead of real instruments. Packaged products and franchises.

This is a great topic to discuss over a few beers :thumb:
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: You know what grinds my gears?
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2015, 06:08:44 PM »
Looking at the future of the hobby first necessitates an examination of the past. In order for an idea to spread there must be exposure to it. As a child I was first exposed to listening to music via something better than a RCA console TV by my father, who had a Sears Silvertone tube tuner and tube integrated amp, along with Sears Silvertone drivers; woofers,tweeters and squawkers.
Back in the sixties and seventies we were exposed to high quality stereos by a neighbor we knew or someone in the dorm we lived in. In those days the common goals for a male might have been to acquire their first car, a first girlfriend, gas money and most probably a badass stereo. Not necessarily in that order.
 Along with the first two examples were the many regional retail chains that sold stereo components from the major Japanese manufacturers as well as domestic producers. Those chains are mostly gone and with them the chance to browse the stereo store while your wife shops elsewhere in mall. The independent dealers are also mostly defunct.
 With most of the opportunities to encounter the sound of a good stereo gone, at least 1 generation of American youth and maybe 2, have never listened to a badass home stereo system. We won't see these people joining our hobby when they have never heard of it. I also don't see dedicated headphone listeners switching to a completely different mode of listening to music that also requires a potentially much larger financial investment in addition a certain amount of dedicated space in the home that may not be available.
 I think it is possible that advances in materials science and electronics devoted to the reproduction of media in the home theater maybe the best hope for the youth of the future to hear high quality sound. Without using headphones.  
 The are wide variety forces acting on our hobby to change it and diminish aspects of it that we are currently familiar with. It exists because of the desires of a generation to have superior sounding music reproduction in the home. If it survives the passing of most of the baby boomer generation and the economic power that they bring to bear on the marketplace, it will probably not be in a form that would be recognizable to us today.
Scotty
 Scotty