Author Topic: New DAC reveals more  (Read 7009 times)

Offline Carlman

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New DAC reveals more
« on: January 30, 2015, 04:35:02 PM »
So, I had a lot of help building a DAC... Let's put it this way, I was mainly responsible for purchasing and deciding I wanted it.
I am basically following what Rich is doing.
I had a non-oversampling DAC and got into a Buffalo 3 because it had more dynamic range, more detail, but without the digititus I'm used to hearing in every other high end DAC.  He had some fancy transformers used for the output and I think were passive.

It sounded really good, especially in my system.  I had bass I'd never had, a connection with the music I've never had.  All except for one area, the upper mids... It was just a little harsh on certain sounds (like distorted/bad recordings or compressed stuff)... and I've always chalked it up to my speakers just being overly revealing in that area.

Rich brought over his latest 'situation' where he changed the output stage to a powered version rather than passive.  It was interesting because it was more correct, I could actually hear the lyrics being sung.  It took away some mystery and in a way, a little of my emotional connection.

So, months went by and I couldn't get it off my mind.  So, I finally got a few extra bucks and asked Rich to "help" me again.  I bought the parts thinking I'd do this upgrade but after I got it all, I was like.. what am I thinking?  I have also wanted a direct input for USB on my DAC...  So, I bought a little XMOS DSD adaptor to install too.  I was in way over my head trying to work out how to do all these things... (with the amount of time I had available)

Rich got it all working for me and I got it running with no problems right off the bat.  Thanks again, Rich.

Now I have more detail and less grain, less smear than I have ever heard.  The combination of replacing the hiface with this usb adaptor plus the addition of the powered output stage made the experience a real surprise.

The lack of fatigue I have now lets me listen for a long time and forget about everything... I'm in awe of most of what I hear.  Listening to old test tracks are a revelation every time.

Queen Bitch from Bowie is clean sounding.  How is that possible?  Damien Rice never gets too shouty now.  AND I hear new things in all my music.  It's the best of 2 worlds that until now I've always thought of as mutually exclusive... it's either more detail with more 'etch' or fatigue or more 'natural' or smooth at the cost of detail... Not now... it's more smooth/natural and more detailed.  I'm blown away EVERY time I listen.

Thanks, Rich.. and I hope you post more technical details of what you actually did. :)

-Carl
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline richidoo

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Re: New DAC reveals more
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2015, 06:28:48 PM »
More more more!
How d'ya like it?
How d'ya like it?
More more more!

Praise be unto Russ White of Twisted Pear Audio,  Brian Lowe of Belleson, and Bill Whitlock of Jensen Transformers for creating these great parts.

Carl you should try running it balanced directly into the amp sometime.

Offline Carlman

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Re: New DAC reveals more
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2015, 05:54:10 AM »
I like what this upgrade did so much that I'm buying a new PC for the sound room. I experimented briefly with Windows 8 versus Windows 7 and the difference was enough to make that jump.
:)
I will try running it direct again. However I really enjoy that little bit of tube aliveness.
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline rollo

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Re: New DAC reveals more
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2015, 06:36:04 AM »
  Carl the USB adapter is an outboard unit ? Then connected with SPDIF or ? Or internal ?
   How many amps is the power supply ? If ya still feel the need for tubes and do not want to use the preamp consider Bill Bakers buffer. Enjoy !!'  The professor strikes again.


charles
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Offline Rocket

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Re: New DAC reveals more
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2015, 05:19:45 AM »
Hi Carl,

Is the dac that you bought?

http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/buffalo8.aspx

Cheers Rod

Offline Carlman

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Re: New DAC reveals more
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2015, 06:08:32 AM »
Rod,
Yes, that's it but I have the Buffalo II. 
Rich originally had it setup to use special custom-wound transformers from Belleson as the output stage.
I wanted to replace that with the Legato powered output stage so I had to buy the Placid power supply.
The output transformers are still in the output path, and we've talked about switching to the opamp output instead to hear the difference the transformer output makes.

I got this USB card, installed internally.

How it all got powered/wired isn't something I'm clear about.  I know I had to buy another torroid for something.. The DAC has some weight to it now. :)

There are a lot of options to consider with this DAC now.  How multifunctional do I want it to be?  I can be/do a lot of things.  Right now it's setup to just play whatever comes in the USB input and has volume control.

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline rollo

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Re: New DAC reveals more
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2015, 06:19:47 AM »
   Carl definitely try without output trannies. You will get a different flavor. A bit more transparency maybe without trannie. The trannie output warms it up a bit. A definite difference, which one better ? The system will tell you. Enjoy !!!

charles
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Offline richidoo

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Re: New DAC reveals more
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2015, 08:21:32 AM »
Just to clarify, for those who want to know...

The transformers are from Jensen Transformers, extremely permeable 80% magnetic core.
Frequency Response is -3dB at 0.27Hz - 15MHz
THD @-5dBu with 100kOhm load is <0.0001%
Phase flat 20Hz - 20kHz
This is more transparent than most opamps and all caps. A slight sweetening is probably more appropriate description of how it affects the sound rather than warming, the numbers speak for themselves.

The Legato 3 can be trimmed to eliminate the DC offset on the output, both for balanced output and the SE output. Legato SE output circuit uses the devil's spawn LM4562 opamp so it remains unpopulated, only the BAL circuit is built, no SE, no buffers, no J5,6 jumpers. The devil is on ice. The transformer provides BAL/SE conversion. If Carl chooses, he could connect his transformer balanced output to his Mac amp bal input, bypassing the tube preamp.

Another option is to eliminate the transformers because the Legato 3 can trim out any DC offset, but that would require rewiring the Legato balanced output directly to the XLRs, and would require waking up the surface mounted devil for SE output into Carl's preamp.

The regulators on the DAC board are from Belleson. They perform better than any other regulator, very small and make very little heat. Highly recommended.

The power supply for the Legato3 is Twisted Pear's Placid HD bipolar. I chose to use Placid for mine instead of Belleson regulators because I bought the whole active Buffalo kit including Placids before I knew about Belleson, a long time ago. Carl liked the sound of my DAC with the old Legato1/Placid, so he bought the same thing with the newer versions. Placid is a complete PS with rectifier and storage caps, not just a regulator, so it is simpler to use than Belleson. The shunt regulators on Placid could be replaced with Belleson regulators if desired, but I don't think it would provide any advantage, since Legato (balanced part) is a class A amplifier. The 30VA 30VCT toroid Carl spoke of is for the Placid PS. As a side note, the original Placid PS that I used failed. I had another unbuilt kit of the old style placid on hand so I just replaced it with another old version. Carl has the newer Placid HD version. The Legato uses all discreet class A amplifiers, so the power to run it is a very easy, constant load, so any well designed regulated PS would work fine. I forget what the current requirement is, but I think the Belleson high current model (2A) can handle it. The Placid shunt supply gets good and hot but touchable during use, so venting the big heatsinks is important. I was able to place them directly in the airstream of the side vents of the Par Metal box.

Rod, the Buffalo 8 is the multichannel version of the Buffalo3. For stereo use, you would want the BuffaloIIIse, which parallels the internal DACs within 9018, 4 each side to make 2 channels. This makes enough voltage and current to drive most loads passively, which is originally why I tried transformers only, to fix the DACs 1V voltage offset. Transformer cannot load the DAC into current mode, so it's not ideal, imo.

A Buffalo8 can be used with 4 separate Legatos to make a multichannel DAC. I'm thinking about doing that as a source for my active speakers. But the cost of building that in this manner with regulators and transformer upgrades would be 2/3 the price of buying a new exasound e28. If one was found used, it would be the same price as Buffalo8/Legato. If the exasound has discreet amplifiers I'd go that way and have better resale. But I am confident that the Buffalo would at least keep up with it.

Offline rollo

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Re: New DAC reveals more
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2015, 08:45:57 AM »
Well explained Richidoo. I like a trannie output as it makes digital sound more lifelike. Great for tonality and harmonics. Basically takes the edge off without losing detail or clarity.
    I agree the trannie itself is a big deal. Quality is quality. Cool stuff keep it coming.


charles
     
   
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Offline Carlman

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Re: New DAC reveals more
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2015, 12:49:04 PM »
Greatly appreciate your description, Rich.  What he said. ;)

I have recently purchased and configured a Windows 8 fanless PC in my soundroom.  It sounds a little more exact/precise or something.. the stream is just more controlled in every way.  Imaging is better as a result.
It's more more again. ;)  There is no negative, just positives... better starts/stops, cleaner edges of thngs, a little less dark sounding too.  It changed the PRAT for the better... all that stuff... just a little bit.

Not as big of a deal as the DAC upgrade but a nice compliment.

My system sounds so incredibly awesome right now it's just insane.  The only things I still need to do are things I've always known.. and involve the phsyics of the room.  I need to cure a 150-250Hz resonance and maybe add a little sub bass for that bottom end punch.
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline rollo

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Re: New DAC reveals more
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2015, 12:54:01 PM »
   Awesome to hear. Not that you are not capable of curing that freq. range for great input speak to Aron Hoffman from Kansco.
   He has designed some serious traps.


charles
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Offline richidoo

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Re: New DAC reveals more
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2015, 09:56:46 AM »
Great!    Insanity is relative, and highly underrated.

Sadly, an 8 channel version isn't practical at the moment since there is no good retail multichannel USB/I2S adapter available now.

diyinhk said they won't do one because 8 channels would limit the XMOS processor to only 96kHz resolution, no DSD, and nobody wants that.  :roll:  I think they would be surprised at the demand.