Interesting Comparison between a Phasure, Killer, Minerva and Playback Designs

[bhobba]

Hi Guys

Posted this over on Computer Audiophile and it caused a huge stir:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/phasure-nos1-digital-analogue-converter-owners-impressions-post-here-19323/index5.html#post299456

Saturday I had the distinct honor and privilege of being at a 4 way comparison:
1. A Killer DAC driven by an Off-Ramp
2. A Phasure
3. A Playback Designs MPD5
4. A Wiess Minerva

The speakers were Vandersteen, I think the model 3A Signatures were mentioned, but don't hold me to it. Can't recall the amp, but it was solid state.

All were driven by a dedicated Mac Mini running Audirvana. The Phasure was used with the recommended settings once we got it working - that required a bit of help from Peter who sent a new driver - kudos to Peter for the excellent customer service in personally sorting out issues. It was not with the recommended XXHigh End on a special windows machine so Phasure aficionados may dismiss our findings as not being set up properly. Its an issue, but I also have to say it sounded pretty much the same to me as when I heard it optimally set up on wquite a few occasions now.

My ordering was the Killer, a tie with the Wiess and Phasure, then the PD.

The Killer was harmonically rich and real sounding. The Wiess was surprisingly like the Killer but not quite as harmonically rich, the Phasure was, just like every other time I heard it, extremely clear, clean and pure, but lacking in realism and life to my ears, the PD was far too polite, laid back, recessed and relaxed for my taste.

The person that built my Killer was there, and not surprisingly gave the Killer top spot, but, as was I, quite impressed with the Minerva and I think he gave it second spot, then the Phasure, then the PD. I don't agree with rating the Phasure below the Minerva - yes the Minerva was more harmonically rich, but wasn't quite as clean and pure as the Phasure which is simply supreme in that area. It didn't have the realism of the Killer though which is why that got top spot for me.

Strangely, the person who held the event to help him decide on his DAC upgrade, liked the PD best - precisely for the reason I didn't like it - it was more relaxed and less in your face than the other DAC's, which he described as glarey. But as one guy there said - you listen to a trumpet in real life and it's glarey. This is really a funny hobby isn't it.

Anyway the DAC's were left at the persons place and I will be dropping my Playback Designs MPD3 over so he can decide if he wants to pony up for MPD 5 or the MPD3 being half the price is better suited.

Also one person that was there, the person that bought along the MPD5, lives close by and wants to hear them in his system, and he has kindly said I am welcome to pop on over and check it out as well. I think he preferred the Killer of all the DAC's there as well. But this was from simply listening to a discussion with the person that made the Killer and how it was voiced to be like that. I also think he ranked the PD he bought along last which, if true, and further listening confirms it, may lead to a DAC change - only time will tell. His comment about the PD was, like me, its too polite.

I will report as listening progresses.

As to the near religious outpouring over on Computer Audiophile as I said in a later post - Saner people know that personal preferences and system synergies make it impossible everyone will always say any particular bit of gear is the bees knees.

What I like about this forum is everyone seems to know that anyway - which makes it a much more pleasant place to discuss stuff.

Thanks
Bill

[topround]

Bill,
I must agree with you on that point about what people like.
There may be something that blows you away and another may not like it at all. Strange that there can be so much of a disconnect!

I know they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but there are some things ...lets say girls...that are just hot to almost everyone, so there must be some standard of beauty, even if just a barebones framework of a structure to define it.b Forget porn..who does not like the Victorias Secret catalog? or the Sport Ilustrated swimsuit issue? And just because that collection of spectacular looking and smoking hot women exist in a catolog is proof that there must be some standard among us men who like women.

I take offense at the argument that a trumpet is glarey in real life. Perhaps it is, but we are not listening to a real instrument but a recording, and the system assembled was put together to sound a certain way for the end user.
He may prefer his trumpet less glarey, more subdued or refined, and that is his preference. Crazy hobby?  You said it! I have heard several systems that lacked refinement or where a bit bright only to be explained off as that is how it sounds in real life, that is an easy out if you ask me.
It is this rough patchwork of a standard that we deem good counterbalanced by what the owner of the system likes that drives us nuts.

In the end you choose what works for you. At least that is what you should do.  Then invite everyone over for a listen... everyone hates it or criticizes it and it  starts all over again.!
Crazy hobby?  You said it!   But it is fun, especially when you learn something, when you discover the sound you like, when you discover some great new music, when you discover how things work, and  especially when you discover new friends.

Will there be discourse that does not go smoothly? Absolutely, but such is life.
Mike

[rollo]

  Interesting write up Bill. Yes different strokes for different folks. Subjective for sure.
   Our reference is live un amplified music. The hall plays an important role as well. A piano or Violin concert at Carnegie sounds less bright than Lincoln center. Acoustics. Some prefer Lincoln some Carnegie.
   I play the trumpet and can tell ya it can be glarey, bright and harsh. It can also melt you away, Clifford Brown or Dizzy can make ya squeal or chill ya. Check out Alternate Blues on Acoustic Sound label and hear Dizzy's horn. Go to a Big Band concert to refresh one's memory.
   Take the hall. There are different sonics to be had depending on where in the hall you sit. Up close and personal say the 6th row hold onto your balls. Ya sit in the last row and it is subdued.
   I believe that is why people have different goals as to what they like. Whatever the reason it is subjective to the listener.
   Another issue is what music is used for evaluation. For me studio recordings just do not cut it for me.  Vocals are from a sound booth, 12ft wide pianos, mixed to death and so on. Yes there are exceptions but not many.
  Playing a solo piano or violin in a hall live is what I use to evaluate gear. Unamplified brass and acoustic instruments will allow one to judge tonality and harmonics.
   Time to go hear some live music unamplified to refresh ones memory of the real deal.


charles

   
   

[topround]

Yes live music is...live music...no doubt about it.
If anyone thinks their system reproduces live music is kidding themselves.
But these systems were not assembled to try to recreate what cannot be done, but to make ourselves happy.

Honestly some of the best musical moments I ever had were in my car, listening to a semi crappy auto system.

It seems music and driving really work together, especially at certain times of the day, or frames of mind, or driving at night or early in the morning, or maybe driving thru the mountains or along rt 1 in maine or thru New hampshire in the winter with clouds , white wintery clouds in the sky.

Those experiences coupled with some music can be mind blowing and exhilarating, more so than any system I ever heard.

We all know this to be true.

So live music is great, not just because it sounds real, but perhaps it is coupled with the fact that there is an external emotional coupling attached to the event. In other words state of mind. Going to see some live music may mean getting together with friends for dinner and drinks prior to the venue, chit chatting, catching up and feeling good, it all helps to make it a happy event.
I have been to  several live music events that did not sound good, sure Carnegie sounds great, everyone knows Carnegie sounds great, but have you been to a venue that sounded bad? I have. Live music can sound bad as well.

I go to live music with friends to have fun, not at all to compare to my system at home, to me they are not even related.
Not trying to knock anyone ideas of what is right or wrong, but to me they were always separate events that were totally unrelated.

mike

[bhobba]

Our reference is live un amplified music. The hall plays an important role as well. A piano or Violin concert at Carnegie sounds less bright than Lincoln center. Acoustics. Some prefer Lincoln some Carnegie.

As it should be.

Yea - the Killer is a very interesting DAC, and like the Phasure can polarize a bit.  Its very real sounding on certain music, invoking a live feel.  The Phasure is just so clean, clear and pure - oh so clean but just doesn't invoke that real feeling for me.

My friend from Canberra just cant stand the Phasure and loves the Killer.  Personally I am a bit more circumspect.  Some claim the Killer falls to pieces on certain music, havent heard it myself but people have said it to me.  Others however said it a crap recording to begin with so garbage in garbage out.  

The debate continues - further listening with convival company is required - now who can argue with that.

Doing another comparison tommorow and have just been told the following will be there:

1.  My new PDX with Phillps SQ Valves.  The Killer simply MURDERD my PDX with Tesla Valves but the SQ vales sound a lot better.  Will see how it goes.

2.  The Phasure

3.  The Killer

4   Playback Designs MPD 5

5.  EMM Labs DAC

Again should prove interesting.

Thanks
Bill

[rollo]

   Enjoyment is one thing getting close to tonality and harmonics is another. granted the best of the best can only obtain about 80% of the real deal.
   My point was using "live" as a reference. It does not need to be a concert. My son plays guitar in my listening room. I do the same with the trumpet. My neighbor plays a Steinway.
   All I'm trying to convey is that real sound in a real space is a reference point.
    Heck I've rocked out in the car as well. Our beloved Sharp boom box outdoors will make ya dance. Is it accurate to live, hell no but it draws out emotion.
    I think most do not go to a concert to evaluate and compare. However that sound sticks in your mind. Like hearing a street musician playing Sax. One knows it is a real instrument and can easily be unidentified.
  Bill keep us posted and say Hi to Mike the stranger.


charles
 
     

[bhobba]

Hi Guys

Did the comparison yesterday.

It was Adam Tensor active speakers fed by an Audio Research Reference 5 SE pre.

Different outcome than I expected.  It should have been the AR pre triumphant comparison.

It was amazing.  All the DAC's sounded great through this pre.  People have been telling me about it for ages - the soundstage widens and envelops you - voices just sound great.  But its not dripping in honey etc - its undoubtedly some kind of valve euphonics, but what its doing is subtle - the effects aren't - but what it's doing to achieve it aren't clear to me - not clear at all.  I am going to have to eat crow - I originally thought it was just hype about this pre - it isn't.  Still at nearly $20k here in Aus I wont be getting one any time soon - but its good to know you are actually getting something special for that type of dosh.

Anyway I liked all DAC's in this system, but my ordering (worst to best) was the Playback Designs, then Phasure, then Killer - but I would have to say I could see that my liking the Killer over the Phasure was purely the harmonic richness - it didn't sound uninteresting at all - it's just I found the Killer a bit more interesting.  But in compensation it had greater detail - which is better - can't say - I liked the richer sound - but that's just me.  The PD still sounded too polite for my tastes, but one guy thought that was because it presented stuff in proper perspective - other DACs may have been emphasizing things.

Just to see what the pre was doing we fed the Killer directly into the active speakers.  Its the most harmonically rich of all the DAC's and it was thought it was experiencing the lift of the pre the least.  It simply dropped away - dull and uninteresting in comparison.

The bad news was we couldn't get the PDX working, and the time spend trying to sort that out meant we didn't hear the EMM DAC.  I tooik the PDX down to the manufactures factory and it worked just fine - so heavens knows what was going on - but probably something to do with the fact the system has switched to Maveric and the M2Tech USB modules the PDX uses have known issues with it.

Thanks
Bill

[rollo]

 Hey Bill,
                    Are we getting away from driving the DAC directly ? Hey hey ? I have yet to meet a digital volume control to out class a well designed active preamp.
   The AR is not the only game in town especially for $20,000. I wish you lived close so we could play around with preamps.
   


charles

[bhobba]

The AR is not the only game in town especially for $20,000. I wish you lived close so we could play around with preamps.

Most certainty it is not.

Heard a few though and they wernt in the same class as this pre.  

One guy who told me about this pre (he was not the only one) was on the phone nearly crying - its sublime but I just cant afford it.

In desperation he got a Ming Da and had it upgraded with Duelunds etc.  Seems very happy with it at a much cheaper price.

At the other end some guys down in Sydney built these really over the top monoblock pre's that cost a bomb.  Evidently it simply blew the AR out of the water.

Personally these says I am moving away from SS amps to valve amps all the way through - I really like my Prima Luna.

There is a debate raging out our way - what's better - the Arions or the Prima Luna.

I lent my Prima Luna to a guy in Toowoomba who has a Phasure.  He had a friends Arion 500's with Duelund VSF Copper and compared them.  I personally prefer the Prima Luna - he didn't - the Arions to his ears were were easily better.

my friend that owns the VSF Copper Arions thinks he might prefer the Arions as well - but want to do some further comparisons, especially against the Cast Arions, to see what the go is.

He is looking at building a new house in Towwomba and creating a dedicated man shed to set his system up in.

Very interesting - but ......

Thanks
Bill