Author Topic: DSD Debate  (Read 7500 times)

Offline jimbones

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DSD Debate
« on: August 22, 2013, 06:55:50 AM »
I was going to resurrect an older thread but then i decided to open a new one now that this has been simmering a while. Should one consider DSD capability when purchasing a new dac? Is there any difference in SQ or is it hype?
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Offline mfsoa

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Re: DSD Debate
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2013, 10:09:53 AM »
Good question, Jim,
On some sites/circles it feels like you shouldn't even consider a DAC that's not DSD-capable, yet on AN there's nary a mention of DSD.

As one whose system is currently under-dac'd (I like my Dac-iT but I'm sure I can do better) I have been keeping an eye on the DSD future but there is so much hype by the supporters (I'm not doubting their ears or motives - well, I'm sure some mfgs would like to sell stuff based on it) and the detractors (I'm not doubting their ears or motives either - well, I'm sure some mfgs would like to sell stuff based on hi-rez PCM too!!) that it's hard to cut through.

-Mike

 

Offline richidoo

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Re: DSD Debate
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2013, 11:39:16 AM »
DSD sounds great because it has much higher sample rate and consequently much more accurate waveform than PCM of same file size. Hirez PCM's large file size is due to the high bitdepth. The importance of sample rate over bitdepth is explained well here: http://www.mother-of-tone.com/cd.htm
DSD takes this viewpoint to the extreme, with 1 bit words at 1.4MHz per second, or 2.8MHz with DSD2. The high sample rate allows shallower filtering at higher freq, and results in a very smooth and accurate waveform, the most like analog of any digital format.

Like any other discussion of storage formats, it boils down to the content. Is there music you want to listen to available on DSD or SACD? If you are not big into new classical releases then you might find limited choices. SACD content might not actually be recorded in DSD, but converted from PCM. What little original genuine DSD music I have seen online has been from audiophile recording labels. "Audiophile" recordings are rarely what I reach for.

Offline tmazz

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Re: DSD Debate
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2013, 07:27:34 AM »
On the software front Chad Kassem has announced that he will be offering all kinds of audiophile albums in the dad format.
Details here:
http://store.acousticsounds.com/superhirez
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline richidoo

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Re: DSD Debate
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2013, 08:53:33 AM »
1 bit words at 1.4MHz per second, or 2.8MHz with DSD2.

This is wrong, normal DSD on SACDs is 2.8Mhz, and DSD2 is 5.6Mhz.

Offline jimbones

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Re: DSD Debate
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2013, 04:19:15 PM »
So Rich, have you actually compared DSD to PCM, even if not an AB session, in general it seems you like the SQ compared to PCM. I'm not into classical too much. I wouldn't mind purchasing single files but not a whole "album" unless I really loved it.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 04:21:10 PM by jimbones »
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Offline richidoo

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Re: DSD Debate
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2013, 12:46:25 PM »
I've heard hirez PCM in an audiophile setting, but SACD only on cheap universal player in medium resolution hifi system. Comparing CD layer to SACD on that system didn't show too much difference, a little smoother.

I like the refinement of hirez, but I don't like the added detail, nor the limited catalog, nor the higher price. I still buy classical SACDs for the CD layer. I wouldn't buy a jazz or classic rock SACD reissue. I usually prefer the original mastering engineer's interpretation of the album as a work of art. I also avoid CD reissues of art made for LP for the same reason. Maybe someday by coincidence I will have a way to play the DSD layer in my system, then I'm sure I would enjoy it as long as the detail was not too distracting.

Offline hifial

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Re: DSD Debate
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2013, 01:41:41 PM »
FYI, just like a bad mastered CD, a bad mastered SACD will not sound good. And just like a great CD player makes a good mastered CD sound good a mediocre SACD player will not make a good mastered SACD sound good.

Also the same DSD file from the same SACD will sound better played back on a DSD capable DAC vs the SACD played back on a SACD player, even with the likes of dCS. This is not just IMHO but that of people in the know, like Andreas Koch of Playback Designs. 

The announcement by Chad Kassem should not be taken lightly. THIS IS HUGE!! They have done some of the most important releases, such as the Doors and Pink Floyd as an example. They have close relationships with most of the majors and minor studios. If you see it on their site it will most likely be out on DSD sooner then you think.

I have a Nora Jones SACD and have heard it both as a SACD and the DSD file and the DSD file sounds better. Detailed and analogue at the same time. This is on a very good DSD DAC. Not expensive either.

If anyone were to get a new DAC today they should only get one that is DSD also. There are so many really good ones to choose from in all price ranges. Just make sure you choose one that is single and double DSD (64 plus 128) capable and plays through USB.

 
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Offline jimbones

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Re: DSD Debate
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2013, 05:31:55 PM »
Slightly off topic here, but if I were to rip a CD to my Laptop and play it back through JRiver/JPlay would it sound better than the cd? I once played a file that I had ripped from CD (I did not do an AB only a quick listen) and I could swear it was better than the cd just from a quick listen. I never did go back and do an AB. I must.
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Offline richidoo

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Re: DSD Debate
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2013, 08:37:28 PM »
Jim, your example doesn't account for the conversion method, analog buffer, etc. But given the same dac and output electronics, lets say using a CD player with digital input jack to access the DAC portion, you might expect that the ripped file to sound better than the optical disc. When a CD is ripped, the error correction codes from the physical disc are removed so you just have the pure file to stream. The file can then be streamed from memory, not in real time from storage. This is said to sound better, and someone once sold a memory player, before SSDs and bigRAM and hifi player software were around. Nowadays I think they can all play from memory rather than disk. Lastly, the connection from PC to DAC might be asynchronous USB, which can reduce jitter, compared to potentially high jitter in the CDP. But CDPs being married to DAC in hardware can be tuned to reduce jitter if the mfg is jitter aware and knows what to do. Long way to say, "It depends... on everything..."  :-P  The best reason to use PC source is the digital content from the net. And the convenience of selection music from the network, and programming 5 hours of music to play in advance. All beethoven's Symphonies set to play in order, you don't even have to move. Better go potty first.


ewwww

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: DSD Debate
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2013, 05:13:14 AM »
In my admittedly limited experience, I have yet to hear a disc player sound as good as the playback of a wave file made from the disc. Playback becomes a great deal better, at least in my system, when the data is supplied to the DAC from a dedicated computer rather than my new Toshiba laptop. I switched to playback from computer 4 years ago and haven't looked back. I find that I playback a wider variety of my music collection when the whole contents are at my fingertips.
Scotty

Offline jimbones

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Re: DSD Debate
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2013, 07:45:25 AM »
In my admittedly limited experience, I have yet to hear a disc player sound as good as the playback of a wave file made from the disc. Playback becomes a great deal better, at least in my system, when the data is supplied to the DAC from a dedicated computer rather than my new Toshiba laptop. I switched to playback from computer 4 years ago and haven't looked back. I find that I playback a wider variety of my music collection when the whole contents are at my fingertips.
Scotty

Well, I am only using the disc player as a transport and have a decent DAC.


BTW is that a Maine Coon?

Jim
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Offline mdconnelly

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Re: DSD Debate
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2013, 09:44:56 AM »
If I recall correctly (which is highly suspect these days ;-),  a few of us NC locals did do a comparison of my Oracle CD transport feeding an Oracle DAC versus a Squeezebox Touch feeding the same Oracle DAC and we all thought the Oracle transport sounded better... more refined, detailed, etc...  Not that there was a big difference, but the transport seemed to come out on top.  As Rich says... it all depends.  The Squeezebox was running wireless and the digital cable on the transport was substantially better. 

To be honest, I rarely spin CDs much anymore despite the above.  Calling up what I want to listen to via iPeng on my iPhone that controls my Squeezebox has made me incredibly lazy.

My fear with DSD is that at some point, I'll be convinced that it does sound better, I'll want it, and then start to reacquire a large part of my music... again. :duh

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: DSD Debate
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2013, 10:06:01 AM »
Yep it's a Main Coon alright.
Scotty

Offline machinehead

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Re: DSD Debate
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2013, 01:49:46 PM »
Say No to CDs! Use your 6 TB Raid Server instead. Push that music into memory for smooth high really high... wait (toking up) playback.. ahh thats bettah!

DSD.. Just another push to raise those purchase prices... oh and youll pay!
;)
Maybe I will, but Im in no rush..
Its cool ndude.