Econowave?

[richidoo]

Has anybody ever heard an econowave speaker?

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150939
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?s=78ee07020f983a60badae2449db8b81a&t=215536

It uses a compression driver tweeter, loaded by a "progressive transition" profile horn invented by JBL and copied by others. Horizontal and vertical dispersion is excellent, power response is excellent because the horn plays down low enough to match dispersion of a 12" woofer, with minimal beaming, unlike many other horn designs which require multiple horns to cover the bandwidth to avoid beaming.

The crossover is relatively simple 2nd order, based on Wayne Parham design. There are several crossover versions for various tweeters, woofers and horns.

The cost to build an economy version of econowave is very low. There is a deluxe version which interests me with a larger horn and higher quality CD.

What intrigues me about this horn geometry versus some other  more popular horns in the hifi realm is the almost universal observation by real people who have built them from scratch about how smooth is the treble sound.  Clarity and dynamics are a given with a well designed horn system, but the high frequency harshness common with commercial horn speakers disqualifies them for many people.

The guy who conceived and promoted the concept of the Econowave DIY speaker over the last few years, forum name Zilch on AK and PE TechTalk and others, devoted a lot of time to the designs and helping many people build these for themselves. He was dedicated to developing low cost, high quality sound for DIYers based on his knowledge of pro audio parts. After reading about econowave for a week or so, I came across a horn review on Partsexpress which ended with "RIP Zilch..." Sure enough he died a year ago after a sudden bout with lung cancer. In his eulogy on AK, his close friend said that he and Zilch built speakers every weekend for 3 years. Zilch posted curves of his experiments and new ideas and answered questions patiently during that time. The information about speaker design, crossover theory, measurement techniques and seller resources is immense treasure for DIY speaker builders in those several econowave threads. The main econowave thread on AK is 800+ pages.

I'm thinking about incorporating the horn and design philosophy into my next speaker build. Any experiences or opinions welcome, thanks
Rich

[_Scotty_]

Rich it looks like the deluxe version which uses the QSC 152i horn solves the vertical dispersion problem the smaller horn has and allows for a 1kHz cross-over which you really need to stay away from the woofers response problems that start at 1.5kHz.
 Icould find a link to a graph of the frequency response with the larger horn. I was thinking it might be a little flatter than the smaller horn.
 Dumb question,what kind of sensitivity is the Econowave supposed to have?
Scotty

[Face]

There's also: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/horns.html   

[richidoo]

STandard horn FR


Deluxe horn FR

with LPad adjustable tweeter levels shown

This is FR with the woofer I would use, Eminence 2512 (I already have 4 of them:)


Econowave deluxe as designed has nominal 90dB sensitivity with one woofer and lots of padding in the HF XO. I am thinking about doing WTW which will help the SPL.

I'm looking at this as a baby step toward an all horn system in the future. I've seen those cool horns Mike, super nice! I'd have to hear it first though, as there are a lot of fairy tales in the audiophile horn world. I'm going to hear these 200Hz tractrix with TAD 2002s pretty soon.

[_Scotty_]

I get the directivity goal that is realized by the Econowave design and that is a very nice response curve but I was hoping for a little more efficiency from a horn design. What frequency is the bass 3dB down point at.
Scotty

[richidoo]

Only the HF is horn loaded, so it has to be padded down to match the woofer. There are a lot of different woofers used in various scratch designs and conversions, some of them are not very efficient. So F3 depends on woofer SPL, cab size and alignment. Econowave concept focuses on HF and crossover, and is intended to teach people how to do diy and speaker design, not really a rubber stamp design or kit.

I'm thinking about a WTW with two Eminence 2512s in parallel, which should make closer to 96dB at Fxo, with sealed bass EQed to 30-35.

[_Scotty_]

Now TTTHHHAAATTTSS'S!!!what I'm talkin' about! 
Scotty

[richidoo]

      

Has anybody heard any econowave horns?

[hometheaterdoc]

nope... but I'd be curious to hear them....  I'll buy the parts if you build the speakers?  We can share custody where I get visitation rights until you cut them into pieces and build something else?   My PE account gets me good pricing on most of these parts... for once better than just buying them as a consumer....

I just have no room for more speakers at my place...  nursery furniture arrived at the store yesterday.... so I'm officially on final notice to clear the rest of the stuff out of here.... adding more speakers to my place would incur a wrath I'm not ready to experience right now...  especially after just getting some Von Schweikerts..... but I've always been curious to hear a horn that didn't make me cringe or want to run out of the room...  it hasn't happened yet....

the PE folks are now carrying the QSC waveguides at a premium price...  but it looks like the SEOS waveguides are almost in production as well... some of those look cool....

[mgalusha]

Has anybody heard any econowave horns?

Yep. Wayne from Bolder Cables built a pair and brought them over one time. At first they were a bit bright for my tastes but a little twist of the L-Pad took care of that. There is a thread on AC with some thoughts of how they compared to the Abbey's and the Yorkville Unity's in my room.

I thought they sounded very good and with the re-coned Advent woofers he used they went quite a bit lower than my Abbey's but with the corresponding reduction in sensitivity.

I've been thinking a lot lately about something with a 15" driver and large horn. Possibly a JBL 2226 or an Altec 416. The Beyma TPL-150H interests me a lot though I wish there was a larger horn/waveguide for it.

mike

[richidoo]

Thanks for the offer Shane. I'll start a thread in the DIY section after I've settled on my design. I intend to use the QSC horn. They are licensing it from QSC, plus profit it all ads up. I'm glad it's available again. I found some FG SEOS horns online, but what does SEOS stand for and who developed it?

Mike, I think I discovered econowave by reading that review about the 3 way comparo at your place. The early  econowaves used a really inexpensive Selenium CD in the smaller 12x6 WG in keeping with the "econo" theme... so maybe that's what bugged you.  Zilch said that the QSC i152 horn with DE250 was much better in every way, but pricier.

Here's a technical article about the heart of the econowave standard and deluxe, the Progressive Transition horn from JBL. The QSC 14x10 horn and Dayton JBL clones are based on this.

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?doctype=3&docid=277

[mgalusha]

Rich,

I definitely heard the version with the small waveguide and the Selenium Ti tweeter. The Abbeys have the DE250 and they work pretty darn well.

Appreciate the JBL link, most informative. So I searched on one of the waveguides in the JBL doc and ended up here: http://www.fullcompass.com/product/395969.html

Now a pair of those in your living room would certainly wake the neighbors.

[richidoo]

Wicked!   

[richidoo]

didja see they have re-stocks awailable at almost half price.  wow...   

doug s.

That's less than $10/pound!
But somebody didn't like it.

[rajacat]

I've jumped into the SEOS project with both feet. I participated in the initial group buy for the fiberglass iteration of the SEOS. Here's a couple of links that deal with the design and the group buy.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1291022
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/166312-waveguides-horns.html

I'm also participating in a group buy for AE woofers.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1363566
The AE group buy is taking longer than expected to complete.  You have to be patient in almost any GB situation. It took quite a few months to eventually get the SEOS 18 waveguides.

Of course I'll need compression drivers to power the waveguides so I'll either participate in a GB for the DE250 or try a CD that is being designed by participants in this Zilch legacy project.

I'll also need an active crossover.http://www.minidsp.com/.
In addition, a mic and software (REW or something else) will be required.

I hope I'm not getting in over my head. I'll have to spend the time necessary to tackle the learning curve to master the DSP. However, I think that this project will allow me to get superb sound without spending $$$. The first listening impressions of the SEOS 15/DE250 have been very positive. Here's a quote off the AVS forum
“

"Also, I went over to Bwaslo's house on Sunday to look over some other parts and projects. His SEOS-15 speakers with the 15" A&E woofer were completed. I can say without a doubt that these were the cleanest sounding speakers I've ever heard. Most of my listening has been done with dome style tweeters, but I have heard some Klipsch horns and things like that. But nothing quite as big as the SEOS-15. Super smooth, super clean, and I'm guessing they can handle a LOT more power than you'd need in a home. 

What really surprised me was how how loud they were without me actually realizing it. The sound was great and I guess because it's so clean you don't realize the volume? Or is that what they mean by a "non fatiguing" speaker? While listening, I said something to Bill in a fairly loud voice, only to realize I needed to raise my voice a lot more than I thought to get over the volume of the speakers. In other words, they were much louder than I perceived them to be. I was really impressed and now my goal is to get a pair built for myself using the SEOS-12."

Sorta reminds you of the initial reviews of Geddes  speakers, eh?



 18” SEOS waveguides $350 max ...group buy
compression drivers  ~$250 or less.
top quality 15" woofers ~$480 ..group buy
miniDSP $120
mic and software $150+
 +materials for cabinet (mostly bass bins)

Probably about $1500 total plus my labor.
Subwoofers are mandatory so I should factor that into the cost. I already have a couple of subs so that wasn't an issue for me.

You'd easily be able to build a pair for less using cheaper woofers and the less expensive waveguides that will be available in future group buys by the same group. I feel that this group buy group will become more and more efficient as they gain experience and the waiting times will become much shorter. As it is, it's a good deal and a number of people, especially Erich H (AVS forum) are committing their time, uncompensated, in the spirit of DIY and many will reap the benefits.

...Roy