My DIY Speaker options

[richidoo]

The Katanas are with their new owner in Atlanta. He was thrilled to get them, excited to start up his audio hobby again after 30 years away with career, kids. Now retired, he is jumping back in head first.  For me, they accomplished the mission of getting familiar with the ceramic driver sound, seeing how they sound on my favorite music types, different amps, etc. I loved them, and would recommend them to anyone. I did not like the TL bass as much as the reviewers did, but it was amazingly deep, loud and tuneful, just not as detailed as I have grown accustomed to with large direct radiating bass drivers.

So now I'm listening to my beloved feastrex drivers in the planet-10 Maiko, made of MDF. It sounds really good, but the MDF is smearing things a bit. So, like a good diy'er, instead of fixing it I'm thinking about what I should build next. Here are the possible choices.

1. Feastrex Sphere - in a spherical sealed enclosure, with subs. The sphere made of layered Baltic Birch plywood, machined to spherical shape by lathe or mill. Sphere is perfect exterior shape for a monopole loudspeaker, minimizing diffraction. Spherical speakers that I have heard at RMAF all had a similar calm, expansive open clarity that was very attractive. I couldn't believe the different it made, but after hearing 4 very different spheres in contrast to the usual boxes I was sure it was the shape that made the difference. With a small full range driver like Feastrex, a spherical cabinet is easier to execute than a 2 way.  I will eventually do this in some form or another. I even have some foam hollow spheres that I bought a while back thinking I could make them as foam sandwich composite, but it would still need some machining for the flange inset. So I figure machine the whole thing to be easier and far prettier.  I know some good turners in NC, and I scoped a CNC shop that can do it. ANer Nick even made the 3D files for me.   Some advantages of sphere enclosure  Labor is the only real cost here.

2. Feastrex Maiko in non resonant cabinet - what I'm listening to now. I've been working with this design for a while. I built 4 variants so far, experimenting with design updates, tuning tweeks, construction materials. Early experiments were far from ideal, so I was about to scrap it until the new version, drastically redesigned emerged. I figured what the hell, I'll slap it together and have a listen. MDF is cheap so I made it in MDF. I learned the lesson the hard way that MDF is resonant. I think the main problem is the single layer 18mm MDF on the front baffle. Maybe I can just stiffen/damp that. Worth a try. Those compound angles were not too fun.  But the baltic birch version I built last summer sounded fast and alive. Colored from the design flaws, but I liked the energy. So a rebuildin BB is an option. I already have the wood. Flat to 50Hz, needs subs. Maiko 2

3. Feastrex in OB with bass drivers - along the lines of the Granada loudspeaker system made by The Lotus Group, owner Joe Cohen is an AN member. He is the Feastrex importer for N.A. and Black Sand Audio is a Feastrex dealer if you want to know more about them.  Anyway, Granada uses super-dee-duper bass drivers designed for open baffle, along with active, digital crossover. I have made an open baffle speaker for these drivers a couple years ago. It sounded awesome from 250Hz on up, that is until I tried to add bass drivers without knowing what the hell I was doing. I think I have a better idea now what is required to make it work. I have not heard the Granadas yet, but my friends who have heard them as well as magazine reviews of the shows all say they are truly amazing. Dipole benefits with strong dynamics, SPL, and living organic feel all missing in the Quads. I think I could do it for a little less than the Granada's 150k$ asking price. Though they would not be as pretty, and would not use the gold plated field coil driver with exotic permendur magnetic material in the motor. I loved the dipole bass of the Quads. No room issues at all in the bass. The Lotus Group Grenada

4. Line array - This is a new design called MCLA, invented by John Murphy of True Audio. Murphy Corner Line Array mounts in the corner stretching from floor to ceiling. It uses cheap full range aluminum drivers from Parts Express with EQ to make it do the full bandwidth, 30Hz - 20kHz. I have never heard a line array that I liked so far including the Scaena lust monsters, but rollo, topround and many others say arrays like Pipedreams can be a great speaker design when done right. Previous designs have been free standing, not on the wall, which I assume will affect stage depth illusion. I also worry whether these Dayton aluminum 2.5" drivers are really capable of nice treble. There is nothing to stop them from metallizing the sound, but the distortion spectra look very clean. I would EQ the arrays with PC feeding my DAC, not with Behringer as Murphy suggests.  The nice things about these are the very low distortion, and very high efficiency, no crossover. Sol's i60 would be enough. I could wire them for  higher impedance to use with OTL tube amps. They disappear into the corners, floor space in LR is reclaimed by happy wife. They are nearly invisible, except for the 30 drivers per side threatening to pulverize anything within 50 feet. Crystal clear 100dB bass to 25Hz should be possible.   I have a couple driver samples, I need to mount them in some boxes and have a listen to the treble. What will 60 drivers each spaced a different distance from my ears sound like at 10kHz? Now add reflections from walls and ceiling. Either really really good, or maybe not so much. Hey, I've made bigger mistakes than this. 

5. Accuton Active 3 way - I LOVED the ceramic driver sound of the Katanas. Best midrange I ever heard. I love midrange texture and ceramic is the Godzilla of texture/realistic tone. Accuton makes a new high sensitivity versions of the Katana drivers now, with neo motors. Similar to the Coincident Total Victory drivers. The mids and tweets alone would cost more than any of these other projects. I could put them into a cylindrical spheroid cabinet. 1st order passive is possible with these drivers, but I would plan to do all active with PC based digital crossover room correction software like Audio Lense or Acourate and ESS 9018 based DACs. I can have perfect (electrical) phase response the entire bandwidth. Accuton makes a new 12" ceramic bass driver also, but I think I would go elsewhere for better value, like Eton or AE. This is more of a high tech, low distortion, tweeky, nervosa inducing, hifi weenie approach. I'll eventually do this one too, or just buy Coincident Total Victorys. Gotta get that ceramic back in my veins someday.

6. DTQWT -  high efficiency 3 way design by Troels Gravesen over in Denmark, using his custom designed (for Jantzen) 8" midrange paper driver made by SEAS, along with a vintage large silk dome waveguided tweeter and a pair of quarter wave loaded bass drivers to make 95dB with minimum 7 ohm impedance, all passive. Troels is a master crossover designer, and this speaker has already been built by many people and has good reviews. It won't have the extreme bionic resolution of the ceramics or Feastrex, but it's a known quantity and ticks many of my checklist boxes. Could probably sell the thing later too. This would be a hardcore music listening speaker that could use normal amps with passive crossover. That has appeal compared to the complexity and nervosa of an active system. But this could be done active too, with the Behringer crossover I already have, but not with 6 tube channels.  Big ugly obelisk boxes. I originally bought my Manley 300Bs to go with these speakers, then Obamacrash scared my wallet closed tight. "No new money." DTQWT

All comments and advice welcome. Those who know me will roll your eyes because you know I will just end up doing something completely different anyway. But I've been thinking about these options for a long time now so odds are one of them is next.
Thanks guys!!!
Rich

[shep]

I know this isn't DIY and maybe nothing to do with what you want, but if I were in the states, I would have bought these by now: (Salvadore's "for sale")

COMPONENTS NOW ON SALE

COINCIDENT VICTORY II- I've reluctantly decided that I don't require speakers of this outstanding quality in my Home Theater system, so I decided to sell and replace them with something more modest. This particular pair was part of the very last batch of 6 that were ever made, back in 2007. They are dark cherry and I had every possible upgrade done at the time, internally and externally, to optimize them, including the Extender Feet.

They are in excellent condition, with only a few minor blemishes that you must be very close to see. I have the original owner's manual and the original cartons. They were $ 7,000+ new, and I'm asking only $ 3,500 for them, with shipping extra.

I have some digital pictures of the Victory IIs that can be sent to anyone who is interested. Finally, here is my Review of these speakers.

NITTY GRITTY 2.5FI RECORD CLEANING MACHINE- In excellent condition, though the auto fluid dispenser hasn't been used for a while, so I can't guarantee that this feature will work. However, I checked inside the unit, and there are no clogs. A bonus- a Vac-Sweep Replacement Kit is also included. The Retail for this package is $ 850, while I am asking only $ 385. I also have the original carton and instructions. A picture is available.

Please go to High-End Audio for any other components and/or accessories.

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[bpape]

Definitely not DIY - BUT....

If you really want silky, quick, detailed mids.  If you really want bass that's tuneful, full, rich, articulate, not sloppy, etc.  If you really want drop dead gorgeous images....

You really need to consider coming over to the dark side of panel speakers.  Yes - they are very demanding in terms of placement, but, if you can, they can be everything you'd want.  Think Maggie MG-20's

Bryan

[rollo]

 Rich the accuton Cabasse combo is a killer. Check out ORCA. The total victories are mesmerizing and hot. The MG 20s are probably the only speaker I would replace the Pipedreams with.
  Although the tonality and harmonic structure of the Accuton Cabasse or Victory speakers are first class the imaging and sound staging cannot be equal  to the Maggies. The midbass where the soul is is there in spades.
   Both the Maggies and Victory require power. Lots. Even though the Victories are highly sensitive they perform with lots of juice. Great with Futterman OTLS. You have the room for any of these .
   If you decide to DIY then IMO the spheres would be the best bet with subs. However I would try the Feastrex in the sphere.
   whatever you decide have fun trying.


charles

[richidoo]

OK, now you guys are forcing me out of my neat little box. I thought 6 choices would be enough for you to choose? 

Someday I'll hear 20.1 Magnepans, I look forward to that. Funny the opportunity has never presented. But the price of that project is not in the cards now anyway. I figure about $13k for used speakers and suitable amps? I would prefer a more sensitive speaker that will work with more amps that visit my house. Thanks Bry

I meant to say Coincident Pure Reference, not Total Victory. The one with the ceramic drivers, high efficiency and easy impedance.  I did look at Arthur's ad and review. Thanks shep!  When I scan Audiogon I always hit Coincident, Atma-sphere, Manley and JPS. I've never seen a Pure Reference for sale though, good sign.  So those would be big bucks too.  I'd rather build it myself anyway.

Charles, I couldn't find anything with Accuton and Cabasse together. Couldn't find ORCA either.

Thanks for the advice guys. More!

[bpape]

6 enough in Nervosa?   

If you want an easy load and not a lot of power requirements, then the Maggies are definitely not your choice - or even in the running. 

If you want what you had with the Ushers, plus a nice disappearing act, better tonal balance, etc. - then they are.  There's just something about panel bass that I've never had with anything else.  The closest I ever had was 2 KEF B139's in a dual transmission line. 

Good luck in your search Rich. 

[richidoo]

I'm gonna make a point to hear them this summer even if I have to drive. You know I like the big sound. I can't appreciate your enthusiasm without hearing them for myself, you know? I still have Quad cooties in my mind about panel speakers, but I know magnetics are totally different than electrostatic. It's something you can't read about you have to go hear it.  Thanks Bry

[_Scotty_]

Does your desire for big sound conflict in anyway with the room shape or acoustics you have to work with?
Scotty

[tmazz]

I still have Quad cooties in my mind about panel speakers.......

Rich,

Get that thought right out of your mind.    While Quads did some things extremely well, they had definite limitations and were not the right speaker for many people (or for playing certain types of music.)

A properly set up and powered pair of Magnepans will go places in terms of bass reproduction and dynamic range that Quads couldn't even dream of. But properly set up is the key word. You need to  have the room and the ability to place them where they (as opposed to the rest of the family) want to be. My mancave does not provide a Maggies friendly space, so as much as I appreciate what they do, they have never really been a viable option for me.

If you are going somewhere for a listen try to give the 3.6s a try as well. They certainly are not 20.1s, but they do some pretty amazing thing for less than half the price. There could be some pretty intersting tradeoffs made between laying out the money for the 20.1s  vs buying 3.6s and some (or all  ) of the money saved into better electronics.

Happy hunting!   

[richidoo]

Does your desire for big sound conflict in anyway with the room shape or acoustics you have to work with?
Scotty

Hi Scotty. I am very fortunate to have a large room dedicated to audio, under the condition that it can be converted to domestic use when necessary. When I had the quads I had them 8 feet into the room (they needed it.) I can do pretty much anything as long as it doesn't look "cluttered." I violate that rule consistently, but I am reminded there is a difference between messy and cluttered. "Yes, dear..."  The space is big enough for large speakers, but point v. line v. panel I don't know which to try next.

I don't desire "big sound," as in tall image wall of sound kinda thing, but I do want to be able to play naturally loud symphonic passages with brass and percussion without too much dynamic compression or amp strain. So with high sensitivity speakers I can get by with 60-100W (single pair per channel.) With Low sensitivity speakers I need 500W+ amp which gets very expensive if it sounds how I like.  I like Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Beethoven and they have large dynamic swings. It is mind blowing when it works, but it's been a really long time since I had that in my house.  

Another vote for Maggies! Thanks Tom.

6 enough in Nervosa?  

Only when I try to think about them all at the same time.  

[_Scotty_]

Hopefully there have been some evolutionary changes to the Magnepan line-up. When I had MGIIIs I ran right out dynamic range on the Telarc version of the Grofe's Grand Canyon Suite,I had more than 400 watts available into a 4ohm load and I popped the tweeter and mid-range fuses on both channels. My speakers appeared to start compressing at maybe 95dB and no matter how much power was fed into them they stopped getting louder. When I purchased my speakers there was a specification on the speakers stating that the peak loudness level was 105dB. At that point in time this might have been correct information as it appears to have been born out by my experiences with my pair of MGIIIs.
Scotty

[Rob S.]

Rich,
     Take the maggies off your list.  With your right wall open to the kitchen- it'll never sound right, the image won't work.  If that wall has it's special DIY acoustic panel ( you know the one you started 1yr ago  ) that closes off that open space,  you'll get a MUCH more real, put together image/soundstage.  AS loud as you say you want to play large orchestral pieces, figure your speaker cost x 2 for amps.  bass will still have limitations- except maybe the 20.1 which I have not heard.

Good luck.

Rob

[Bigfish8]

Rich:

Since I know you I think this one is the project you should tackle:

1. Feastrex Sphere - in a spherical sealed enclosure, with subs. The sphere made of layered Baltic Birch plywood, machined to spherical shape by lathe or mill. Sphere is perfect exterior shape for a monopole loudspeaker, minimizing diffraction. Spherical speakers that I have heard at RMAF all had a similar calm, expansive open clarity that was very attractive. I couldn't believe the different it made, but after hearing 4 very different spheres in contrast to the usual boxes I was sure it was the shape that made the difference. With a small full range driver like Feastrex, a spherical cabinet is easier to execute than a 2 way.  I will eventually do this in some form or another. I even have some foam hollow spheres that I bought a while back thinking I could make them as foam sandwich composite, but it would still need some machining for the flange inset. So I figure machine the whole thing to be easier and far prettier.  I know some good turners in NC, and I scoped a CNC shop that can do it. ANer Nick even made the 3D files for me.   Some advantages of sphere enclosure  Labor is the only real cost here.

[richidoo]

Thanks Scotty and Rob. The right wall will be closed off, but the dynamics are important. I will try to hear some 20.1s for myself.

Ken I think you may be right. That seems to be the one I am scheming on most. That and the Accuton in same kind of roundish blob enclosure. And the open baffle Feastrex, too.

[bmr3hc]

Rich

You should definitely hear the Maggies. The 20's might be a problem with your room. Let me suggest the 3.6 Maggies. With your need for full scale, a good fast sub that can keep up with the Maggies should float your boat.
A good amp with plenty of reserve power, one that doubles the output into 4 ohms from 8 and doubles the output into 2 ohms from 4 should be
good or just get a Bryston amp. Caution, once you hear the Maggies at their best, you are hooked into an addiction that only Maggies can satisfy.

Henry